In post 2782, BROseidon wrote:Like, the sequence of events from my POV has basically been:
1) A bunch of people are dicks to me, misrepresenting what I say and attacking my intelligence, dignity, and right to play mafia in my style.
2) I don't hold back (
beyond what the laws of the game require me to
) because if you're going to fundamentally attack me as a person (as either a tactic or because fuck you), I'm not going to sit and take it.
3) People complain that I'm being mean to them or their friends.
I won't really comment on this stuff because there's probably a lot of players you felt have done this, and I can't really speak for them.
I don't ~think I've gone out of my way to be mean to you (as in instigating a fight), but if I have, then I apologize.
I will say that I think the underlined is problematic, because deliberately pushing people (even if you think they deserve it) tends to just escalate and make everyone upset.
In post 2782, BROseidon wrote:Like, grow the fuck up. If you can't take being attacked directly in a game of mafia, don't fucking play mafia. Especially if you're going to spend the game spewing idiotic bullshit from your mouth. One thing that Katsuki and I at least have is a self-awareness of when we are being dicks to people. DS, farside, MoI, Grib, you all seem to fundamentally lack that self-awareness. You legitimately don't seem to understand why at every turn I'm being a dick to you,
because none of you have had an interaction at any point with me that demonstrated that you have any respect for me.
You don't respect me? Fine, but I'm not going to show you any respect back.
Eh, also something I disagree with. Not everyone has thick skin, and handwaving them aside and saying they shouldn't play mafia is borderline bullying them out of the game. The whole "spewing" thing is another matter, especially if it turns personal. If you simply don't like someone's reads or pushes, that's not a free pass to be mean to them. I've seen a lot of the latter this game.
Acknowledging you are a dick and continuing to be a dick is not something to be proud of.
I will freely acknowledge that it's easy for me to slip into being a passive-aggressive asshole. I try to control myself when I can, but I also give in to not wanting to "lose" the argument by stepping away first.
Looking through my posts (specifically showcasing an interaction with you), I see that I might have started being PA to you because you said I was deliberately being disruptive and it was worth a policy lynch, the reasons for which you didn't elaborate on and I never understood. I probably also thought you were treating several players unfairly, so I reacted to that.
In post 2782, BROseidon wrote:This is also an issue I have, in general, with how we've come to moderate toxicity on this site. You're allowed to be mean in a very middle-school mean girls sort of way, but you can't respond to it in ways that are appropriate within certain cultural lenses. You all complain about me being mean? Holy fuck you wouldn't have lasted a day in my house growing up. Western WASP-derived passive-aggressiveness isn't something we all grew up in. Some of us grew up in houses where expressing all our emotions, including frustration and anger, in direct, meaningful was was normal. And that's not allowed here because of the dominant culture of people who end up on the site. For some people from other cultural backgrounds, that's going to be a clash.
Okay, there's a difference in how people deal with expressing emotions. We're probably just going to have to have a difference of opinion here: I still don't think that makes lashing out at strangers okay.
I mean, anger is fine. Frustration is fine. Expressing it is fine. But going beyond that and attempting to deliberately make the other person feel bad is not. Plus, you're making a lot of assumptions about the other person behind the screen. You aren't a special snowflake. I don't say that to be mean, or PA.
to be scum in there, because I don't think the four of you can all have your heads so far up each other's asses - someone has to be playing the others. It's why I'm wary of Ceph - he's doing some shit that's pinging me, and he's playing to my ego and our relationship that spans mafia games going back since I joined the site, meets we've both attended, Survivor games in mishmash, and the Skype channels we're in tied to those Survivor games. Him playing to my ego could be just a sort of natural thing if he's town b/c we tend to see things in a similar way, but there's always going to be a degree of paranoia that he's playing that up to try to get into a blindspot. If he's scum, it may not even be intentional - it could be completely intuitive/natural, or it could be my personal feelings blinding how I make a read there (like I've said, there are certain players, although not ones in this game, who I'll refuse to ever commit to a read on because I fundamentally cannot read them).
Ceph has popped up on my radar as well. I think the first sign of it for me was because I thought most of the people he wanted to lynch were town.
More than anything, my problem is that I think this site fosters an environment where everyone thinks it's okay to be as mean as they want, as long as it's within the boundaries of the site's rules (which are pretty out there). And then people who don't like that are told to stop playing mafia, or get off the Internet, or to
die
, a la camntsuki. Sure, they probably didn't mean it literally, but it's still definitely not okay.
Like. This site has a /ban thread/. And a lot of the people banned are repeat offenders, who can't seem to learn their lesson, because they think they're entitled to being as mean as they want, because it's Not Against The Rules, blah blah blah, the cycle continues. I find that problematic.
But I digress.
tl;dr we could all probably stand to be less mean in whatever way we express it and reel the focus back onto finding scum.
Because most of us are teammates and we should be working together.
I'll try to put together a reads list or something soon.
The issue with this is that a certain level of meanness and toxicity is implicit in a game where a group of people are trying to deceive everyone else and are peddling bullshit, lying, etc to do it.
Like my reason for scumreading farside (now Zulfy) has to do with her consistently misrepping or outright lying about what I have said, what I am saying, and ignoring context on a consistent basis. What am I supposed to do when she's just blatantly trying to peddle bullshit? Sit there and take it? No, I'm going to call her out on it. That's implicitly not going to be a nice thing to do, especially when she then gets defensive and tries to "no u" me over and over again.
Telling people to die, get hurt, etc goes too far, but you can't expect mafia not to get heated. It's also a lot more enjoyable when both parties in a heated fight accept that's what's going on. My shitpost fests against Katsuki in other games have been some of my favorite things because we both know what's going on and aren't afraid to go for the throat. Anything Goes is simultaneously one of the most frustrating but amazing games because of how hilarious shit got b/w me and Katsuki.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:03 am
by BROseidon
Grib the issue I have with your read list is that it's completely different from mine.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:04 am
by BROseidon
Also VCA on day 2 is not very useful. You need a lot more flips to start forming groups based on how votes are moving around.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:06 am
by BROseidon
In post 2830, Grib wrote:I think the majority of my townread on Magna stems from me agreeing with ~almost everything he's said.
See this bothers me because MoI's entire case on me was a steaming pile of shit and you also have me as a townread.
In post 2830, Grib wrote:I think the majority of my townread on Magna stems from me agreeing with ~almost everything he's said.
See this bothers me because MoI's entire case on me was a steaming pile of shit and you also have me as a townread.
Unless that wall was the ~almost.
Not really a townread. More of a "wait and see" read.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:10 am
by Grib
In post 2861, BROseidon wrote:Also VCA on day 2 is not very useful. You need a lot more flips to start forming groups based on how votes are moving around.
It helps give me focus.
In post 2860, BROseidon wrote:Grib the issue I have with your read list is that it's completely different from mine.
Let's talk about it then.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:11 am
by BROseidon
Eh I guess that's less inconsistent, although still somewhat inconsistent.
Also "I agree with what this person says" is a really dangerous reason to townread someone. Learned that one literally in my first game on site.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:12 am
by Grib
I'm willing to just roll with "I'm town and thinking about xyz, this unknown person is thinking about xyz /without/ engaging with me, it's probably coming from the same alignment" instead of stewing in paranoia.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:14 am
by Grib
Bro, can you throw together a quick updated reads list? Just so they're all in one place.
MagnaofIllusion
Transcend r Cheetory6
DiamondSentinel
Zulfy r farside22
Firebringer r ConManMick
Gammagooey r keyenpeydee
BROseidon
Spiffeh r camntsuki
??? r kraska77 r Dekes
Cephrir
kdowns
hiplop
SnarkySnowman
Imperium
The bolded are the places I take issue with. Like, you're strong-townreading the entirety of one half of a partisan split within a game - do you really think that all three of them can be town? That none of them have been stoking the flames to get me and camntsuki to go off as a distraction within the game? In addition to that, I'm not sure what Transcend has done to justify a strong townread. To me he's... sort of there?
It's the same with Snarky. I don't know how the fuck to read snarky because he doesn't do anything. Doing nothing isn't alignment indicative for a ton of players.
hiplop I'm slightly townreading because this low-energy idgaf is something I'd associate more out of town-hiplop over scum-hiplop, although tbh I've just never seen him like this before.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:19 am
by BROseidon
In post 2867, Grib wrote:I'm willing to just roll with "I'm town and thinking about xyz, this unknown person is thinking about xyz /without/ engaging with me, it's probably coming from the same alignment" instead of stewing in paranoia.
Literally my first game on site:
Me: "I'm townread Mara because she's saying a lot of things I agree with"
Nacho: "You probably shouldn't do that"
Mara was scum.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:24 am
by BROseidon
In post 2868, Grib wrote:Bro, can you throw together a quick updated reads list? Just so they're all in one place.
Conftown:
Me
MJ
Town:
Firebringer
Spiffeh
Grib
Slight Town:
hiplop
Gamma
Ceph
Null:
Transcend
kraska
kdowns
Snarky
Scum:
MoI
DS
Zulfy
My read list is kind of wonky right now because my scum pool is probably 1 scum 2 town, but it's hard for me to saw which one of the three is the scum. There's probably 2 more scum after that - and my confidence would be that I'd expect 1.5 scum in that null group (so 50% chance that my slight town/town pool has me wrong somewhere)
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:26 am
by Transcend
We have common ground on moi fwiw.
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:31 am
by Grib
Do you think they were stoking the flames intentionally and specifically as a scum tactic to get you and camntsuki to distract the game, or simply reacting to you as you react to them? Go into detail, if possible, so that I can see what specifically is making you lean towards scum tactic rather than reaction.
I went over my townread of Magna.
I admit, Transcend is sort of a leftover!townread, since I was townreading Cheeto. Haven't really paid much attention to the slot since he replaced out, although there was a post by Imperium that I think eliminates them as potential buddies. Will pull up in a sec.
DS just smells like a mislynch to me.
I think Nacho also said that Snarky is unreadable, so I'm not really buying that as a reason they don't deserve to at least get run up. He keeps popping in, saying something without really having much of a presence, and vanishing again.
hiplop's entire ISO is a barren wasteland. He should be vigged/lynched/eliminated. He is not helping town by actually scumhunting
or
doing anything that makes it clear he's town. Prancing around with his less-than-one-liners and declaring himself obvtown is not going to fly. And if he
is
town, that behavior should be lynched out of him. Repeatedly.
