TM 2021: A normal roguelike

[xofelf]

I'll be honest, there's a non zero possibility that part of my confidence on townReck is the lingering leftovers from Barely Survivor. A game where I did doubt Reck a few times about various things, but he wasn't lying to me about the things that he said. And he feels the same exact way to me. Does that help you out in figuring out why I feel how I do, Miss Maggie? <3

[DeasVail]

It does, thank you <3

[Aristophanes]

Don't hammer me yet!

Like I accept. But lemme get final thoughts out first.

[DeasVail]

I don’t accept ari!

[Aristophanes]

<3 <3

I am town. xof, I know you see my timing in giving effort to this game as sketchy. There's no doubt that I have come in at clutch moments, changed the pace of the game away from myself, and sat back again because breathing room had returned. I know that's the case and I know how that looks. But if you knew my meta (I can hear Reck grumbling already) you would know that as scum I am far more likely to freeze up, and the fact that I haven't done that on multiple occasions here should show you this is my town game.

I think pushing the massclaim was an entirely obviously town!Ari move. As scum I simply rarely have the confidence to do that, even with a team yelling at me.

I knew this 1v1 was inevitable and whether it is today or tomorrow it was simply going to happen so I am glad it's today and thus not game-ending. I never *wanted* it to happen but it was destined to.
That said, I do think Reck is likely our last scum here else I would not be voting there.

I called scum!Reck's play before he did it D1 and I showed where it happened once it did. Remember? The tunneling he did? Yeah, that's exactly what I expected of him as scum.
He's been aggro for so much of the game and I think that's scum him. I also think, looking back at all the "Ari got in my head with this 1v1" things he said, they look slightly disingenuous. Like, not quite the reaction I think Reck has as town. But I think it's the reaction he expects to be seen as town and thus played it up.

I am sure it's not DV and Adorable just seems like such an outside chance that it's gotta be Reck. Also I like that Adorable hasn't voted yet, though I wonder if she knew it was competing E-1s when she posted or if she has no clue due ti internet issues.

Iunno, I just gotta say like, Reck has been pinging me all game. My townreads have been from my team, not from me, and I've told them repeatedly that I did not think he was towny. But I am a team player and dropped it, partially due to self-preservation because the 1v1 would have been fatal at so many times. But it's time to do it. Reck is scum. I know you can see it if you try, xof.

I know you said my doing things and advancing the game and being agreeable is "Just Ari" but like, it's not when it comes to Mafia games and especially not when it comes to my scumgame in particular. I don't advance things because it's scary to do so. I don't make big plays because I am so likely to misstep. I rely on mechanics and luck to get me wins, as was seen in the games I linked for Hectic here. All my best scumgames required help or mechanical crutches. And I know that I have my team here, but that's not the same. And I've given you everything they've thought and said to me in one way or another in this game.

I don't know what else I can say to show I am town, but I am still so down to get this right today!
I'm not gonna just give up and let this go to 3p ELo!

[xofelf]

Yeah, I understand that. Just I'm in this spot where I just can't be sure without concrete evidence, ya know? You've felt weird on and off all game and those sneaky feels just haven't gone away. If you are town, great, then that probably means we have this solved tomorrow, right? Just... idk man.

[Aristophanes]

I just wish we were doing Reck here because I know I am town and I need to know we get it right in 3p if I'm wrong. If we chain myself and Reck and it ends up being Adorable like, Iunno that's my worry.

It's probably just Reck but still.

[DeasVail]

I think pushing the massclaim was an entirely obviously town!Ari move. As scum I simply rarely have the confidence to do that, even with a team yelling at me.

Actually this is so true

[DeasVail]

I had forgotten about the massclaim thing

[Aristophanes]

Looking back at the massclaim part of this game, I think Reck reacted oddly to it. And like, complaining that this wasn't popcorning but being scum led without actually saying I was scum was such good shading of me. Like, the quote below is weird to me. I thinkmy response tho is another obvtown Ari quote.

It's weird towncasing oneself but Iunno, that's seemingly the best idea here to me lol

i think scum know more and can setup claims n an advantageous order for them

this also isnt popcorn claiming

It's not popcorn, that's valid. But with only 3 people unclaimed and the mason PoE even smaller for scum than town, as well as them knowing if there are any hidden roles within those 3 people, this needed to happen.

I am directing the claims because nobody else is taking the initiative and I am therefore making it happen. I think you will want to claim last, but we're down to two left so if not, go for it. I think I'd rather xof claim first though.

[DeasVail]

Go for it I reckon

[xRECKONERx]

I also think Ari brought up a good point about how him believing Ydrasse had already claimed VT would be strange from a scumbuddy with Ydrasse unless it was a totally coordinated thing between Ari and Ydrasse, which is the sort of thing that I believe happens a lot less often than town will be paranoid that it does.

I think Reck being scum makes the game make a whole lot of sense, because if Reck

were

town, then whoever was scum in the game in the previous day phase would have easily been able to get the elim onto somebody other than Ydrasse imo.

Reck suspected me, so why didn't Ari end up folding to vote for me? (Especially given that I become a much less likely mis-elim after the Ydrasse scumflip) I think Bulge would have voted for me, push come to shove, and then you just need one more vote.

Obviously Reck-scum had much less option to try and elim me because he was the only one really saying it with any kind of confidence, and if Ari, Adorable, Xof are all town who thought I was town, it becomes a lot more difficult to get a vote onto me.

I suspect that a Ydrasse elim only happened the previous day

because

Reck was scum.

so because we yeeted scum i'm scum for making it happen

astounding logic

if I were scum I could've just lead the wagon on Ari instead, the only reason I chose Ydrasse was bc it didn't matter to me who went in what order

[DeasVail]

This way of interacting with me is not very helpful towards having me think you are town

[DeasVail]

And you absolutely did not make the Ydrasse elim happen. That was Ari, if anyone

[xRECKONERx]

I could kinda care less if you think I'm town or not at this point? because i am. i was the first vote on Ydrasse when the game was stuck in limbo with nobody knowing where to go first. if i were scum I 100% could've pushed it onto Ari yesterday and gotten Bulge/xof/Adorable on board with it and kept Ydrasse alive, bringing two scum into LYLO today and going for the win

i could go through the list explaining why I'm town but it's pointless, my thought is it's just Ari and you're going to have egg on your face and then can just accept that I was right all game instead

[DeasVail]

i was the first vote on Ydrasse when the game was stuck in limbo with nobody knowing where to go first.

Can you point me to where this happened?

[xRECKONERx]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12648494

[DeasVail]

Because if you’re talking about the previous day phase, your vote on Ydrasse only occurred after:
- Ari had voted Ydrasse
- I had expressed I thought the scumteam was you/Ydrasse
- I expressed that I would elim Ydrasse (but didn’t vote)
- Adorable had just made a post talking about how she was considering the Ydrasse/Reck scumteam I was proposing

From your perspective at the time, it would have appeared as if the tide was turning against Ydrasse(/you) rather than you making it happen as you claim.

[Aristophanes]

xof, read Page 108 again and tell me if you honestly think this is Ydrasse/Ari scum theatre.

Like, who was against the Massclaim? ScumYdrasse and Reck. Why??
Because Reck knew we had PoE'd his as Mason and was willing to see us all kept in the dark? Because 2 conftown was obviously a potentially devastating blow to the scumgame here? It just makes sense! And Ydrasse's reaction was so over the top out of necessity, but look at how Reck interacts with her points there!

the thing about you thinking that i had already claimed, and already claimed vt specifically, is that i think you slipped knowing what prs existed.

VOTE: aristophanes

Wait I don't follow this, what?

I'm uh. Hmmm.

I don't think it's thinking Ydrasse had already claimed, it's specifically that Ari

already thought Ydrasse had claimed VT

that is sticking out to me here. That would imply some sort of setup knowledge.

Ari, why is this a 1v1, exactly? Are you that confident in your read on me and DV?

Look at how he tries to pivot the 1v1 onto me instead of his buddy.
This is the solve!

That page should honestly clear my name entirely xof. Please look back at it!

[xRECKONERx]

Because Reck knew we had PoE'd his as Mason and was willing to see us all kept in the dark? Because 2 conftown was obviously a potentially devastating blow to the scumgame here? It just makes sense! And Ydrasse's reaction was so over the top out of necessity, but look at how Reck interacts with her points there!

The weakness of this argument is that scum already knew all the power roles? Like what?

In what way is this my strategy as scum? Try to pretend to be the last mason? When all it takes is a counterclaim to guarantee my death?
I was against massclaim because outing the last mason just tells scum exactly who to kill since they already have full setup knowledge, period

It was still the right call

[xRECKONERx]

Because if you’re talking about the previous day phase, your vote on Ydrasse only occurred after:
- Ari had voted Ydrasse
- I had expressed I thought the scumteam was you/Ydrasse
- I expressed that I would elim Ydrasse (but didn’t vote)
- Adorable had just made a post talking about how she was considering the Ydrasse/Reck scumteam I was proposing

From your perspective at the time, it would have appeared as if the tide was turning against Ydrasse(/you) rather than you making it happen as you claim.

Whatever DV. I had also expressed interest in voting Ydrasse but you fail to give me any due credit for that

It wasn't until I pulled the trigger that things got going. Xof and Bulge were basically waiting on ME to do something to push a wagon in one direction or the other because I was their top town read. If I didn't want Ydrasse eliminated yesterday it wouldn't have happened, period

[xRECKONERx]

One of Ari/DV is gettin fleeced by the other one. IDK which, I think it's DV getting fleeced by Ari but I don't really care that much.

"You can't think this is scum theater" is such a lazy defense on Ari's end

I tried to get Ydrasse eliminated day fucking one but got shouted back onto RCE, which like, great I guess it was still scum, but in what universe do I, as scum, try to get my more-cleared buddy yeeted instead of the dead in the water bad claim who is dead the next day? In what universe do I "bus" RCE/beeboy while, the whole time, making it clear I am not voting the slot for being scummy, therefore ruining any "town cred" I would've gotten from bussing them in the first place? It makes zero fucking sense.

I mean I think what happened here is when I wasn't the mason it sent the final scum into a panic bc I was being pretty universally townread but now they can't afford to waste a kill on me. and that's why the second that Bulge died we have Ari capitalizing on DV's already-stated paranoia and suspicion about me despite everything leading up to today being Ari saying he thought I was town and that his team agreed.

[Aristophanes]

Honestly Reck, I have an incessant nagging feeling that DV is totally duping me but I don't know if it's a valid paranoia and am therefore staying the course.

This game is tight and scum played well, whoever they are. I just want to get it right!

[xofelf]

I'll be real honest Ari, the term scum theatre means nothing to me. I know how it's used and I understand the words, but it has so many different ways of playing out that I can't look at something and instantly think that it is or isn't theatre. This game was really my first real discussion about what theatre *means* in a game context. So no I can't look at that page and say it's not theatre. It could be an honest mistake on your part regardless of alignment. Not all teams constantly talk to each other about what they should or shouldn't be posting. I've only had one scum game where the team talked to each other before posting things and detail checking, I've had other games where that *didn't* happen. So it's not an impossibility that you messed up either way. Idk what to tell you really, very few of your arguments today feel good enough to convince me that my gut suspicion is wrong enough I need to unvote.

[Adorable]

I'm conflicted. DV has been making good points and the more I see DV post, the more it is making me lean towards scum Reck.