Prism if you're town here you are misunderstanding how I play mafia to an extraordinary degree
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:25 am
by Venus Fly Trap
i guess my issue is that i think that this is something he *should* undertand and i don't get why he's viewing this as scummy
~ skitter
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 4:13 am
by Iverson
In post 2946, Venus Fly Trap wrote:- i odn't think he was online when you voted, and it looks to me like he reevaluated upon coming into the game day3. saying that he's only voting you and questioning your vote because you're pushing him seems remarkably disingenuous
Makes it clear he didn't see any town motivation when he thought about it earlier, but now that I have pushed him, and he's scumreading me for it, now that skepticism is worth bringing up. I think a logically complete response would be that this fits with the "Iverson is ???" opener, but this isn't the point of contention between us at the moment.
In post 2946, Venus Fly Trap wrote:- we established like start of day2 that he's only playing the game when he's here and is sort of thinking through his posts as he types them and, more importantly, that *you weren't scumreading him for this behavior*. i literally don't understand what changed and why you're scumreading him for this now but it wasn't scummy yesterday (you in fact took great issue with me saying you were scumreading him for doing just that). you also seem to understand that he's only thinking abt teh game while he's here 2736
You are fundamentally misunderstanding my point Day 2. I will try reframing it. Day 2, I did not like that Cakez was hipfire spitballing without slowing down to think, ie. reacting instantaneously. Think of the night phase as a
mandatory slowdown
, where Cakez sees the blitz and has it floating in the back of his mind for a bit. He should have come in ready to grill/push me for it, but instead it took a big backseat. If you still don't understand it, another framing might be transposing this into an alternate reality where Cakez has an immediate reaction to the blitz and does not react to it or really take note of it. Later on, during a different hipfire sequence, he claims to have always seen zero town motivation.
If none of these framings work to get it to click I'm not sure where else to go. Fundamentally I find it difficult to get key points across as you make equivalencies that I don't think are true and attribute certain frameworks of thought as universal that in reality I do not share, and these get compounded as they happen simultaneously, so I'm really straining my creativity trying to get these across in different ways.
In post 2946, Venus Fly Trap wrote:- you seem to be townreading infinity for doing the same thing sircakez is doing ??? 2931
The contrast with Infinity is that Infinity immediately came right out of the gate not understanding it and grilling me for it. You seem to think of Cakez's delayed reaction as equivalent and attribute the delay as a trivial difference thanks to his style, but this is crucial to me and style does not cover it. His ambivalence on me before revising it to "still don't understand town motivation", ie. apparently something that was always scummy, is problematic.
In post 2946, Venus Fly Trap wrote:i just, like, don't understand this push - it seems to me like it's convenient for you to be scumreading him for these reasons but i don't understand why 'only thinking abt the game while actively in thread* is scummy, which seems to be what the push boils down to
While I do think it is inherently scummy, and I don't care if it's Cakez anymore than I don't care that it's NM, I think the delayed reaction on finding the blitz scummy, when it apparently always on his mind, is a clear disconnect.
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 4:19 am
by Iverson
In post 2944, SirCakez wrote:ok I will bite on this
Iverson who are my scum buddies?
I don't really think of the game this way (doing preflip associatives) and am on record for it, but I've been pretty clear that my spitball is DC/you/Momrangal and while you go aggressive early on DC I didn't see it was exclusively TvS.
While I am willing to gladiate, I will gladly help you run up my scum partners if you agree on them.
I have nothing to comment on bait or playstyle. I think hipfire reactions are playstyle NAI but do not think the disconnect wrt blitzing or complete lack of cognition outside of the thread is. If I am wrong, which I am like clockwork, that is okay, and I do not regret shooting my shot.
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 4:31 am
by Iverson
For VFT, one final exercise might be to just look at this progression in isolation without too much commentary from me. It is welldocumented that I am a player that places weight on progressions
In post 2729, Iverson wrote:[Inquiring as to how the blitz fit into the above] You watched me openly blitz the town wagon and are just now realizing I might be scum like ???
Cuz i thought you were town ish yesterday but your vote on me is ass and you're in a bad spot on the bulge wagon
In post 2733, Iverson wrote:Can you explain how that thought process on me just evolved considering you had 60 hours of knowing I blitzed the Bulge wagon without really thinking about it until I voted your slot?
Because I didn't know Not Maf was for sure scum until day opened?
As mentioned before, I think there is room for this progression to be interpreted to make sense, but that is not my current bet and we're not even to the point of understanding where that can even be a discussion.
If someone wants me to ISO someone in particular say so, I'm probably gonna focus on mom and salsa if not
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:32 am
by Iverson
I also want to highlight for VFT that I am aware my attempts at different framings can be interpreted as some circus runaround to avoid something fundamentally not making sense, and my emphasis on the value I put on progressions an excuse for why it doesn't failing that.
While I am confident that my original framing and overall perspective makes sense, getting on the same page is a prerequisite for winning, and this means trying different framings/avenues that make the same point using different trains of thought than my own.
In post 2944, SirCakez wrote:ok I will bite on this
Iverson who are my scum buddies?
I don't really think of the game this way (doing preflip associatives) and am on record for it, but I've been pretty clear that my spitball is DC/you/Momrangal and while you go aggressive early on DC I didn't see it was exclusively TvS.
While I am willing to gladiate, I will gladly help you run up my scum partners if you agree on them.
I have nothing to comment on bait or playstyle. I think hipfire reactions are playstyle NAI but do not think the disconnect wrt blitzing or complete lack of cognition outside of the thread is. If I am wrong, which I am like clockwork, that is okay, and I do not regret shooting my shot.
We agree on DC and I could be open to Mom; want to work together on them? Rather then this pointless gladiation demand that is just going nowhere from both of us.
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:32 am
by SirCakez
Like rn I'm finding hard to call Iverson's play scummy because he's actually trying unlike other slots and I feel like scum would be happy to let town implode here
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:50 am
by Kismet
In post 2952, Iverson wrote:Makes it clear he didn't see any town motivation when he thought about it earlier, but now that I have pushed him, and he's scumreading me for it, now that skepticism is worth bringing up. I think a logically complete response would be that this fits with the "Iverson is ???" opener, but this isn't the point of contention between us at the moment.
you are asserting this is because you pushed him, which i don't think there is really any evidence for
in fact the fact that this post exists at all suggest the above isn't the case
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:01 am
by Kismet
In post 2953, Iverson wrote:While I am willing to gladiate, I will gladly help you run up my scum partners if you agree on them.
this just rubs me all sorts of the wrong way considering the current gamestate and i just have a hard time seeing a town player want to work w/ someone they think is scum when even one misstep is instaloss
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:09 am
by Kismet
i think prism is scum and is angling to win on a different day. it's one thing to i guess give up and be fatalistic w/ all this "i want you to vote me regardless of alignment", but if he's scum it's not fatalism, it's strategy
VOTE: iverson
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:19 am
by Iverson
2964 is...delusional in that I would be blatantly trying to win today, but okay.
I've put in the effort I have despite knowing it would be a loss so there's no shame and I'm not upset over it. That said, I think the game should be put down unless someone is seriously opposed. If Cakez is scum it takes another vote.
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:22 am
by Iverson
In post 2961, Kismet wrote:you are asserting this is because you pushed him, which i don't think there is really any evidence for
This is going to be read as a confessional but I really can't resist.
There are several issues with me being scum here, but hypothetically my start today would have been intentionally scummy with the goal of looping in this narrative of a playstyle shift later. I'm very attuned to the power of narratives and am very intentional about leveraging them as scum. I start out getting a handle on the table, but at a certain point I develop a preternatural instinct for what will be townread, when, and to what extent by the players in the table. The daystart is something I have pulled out all the time as Iverson and I am acutely aware that the hyperaggression gets scumread.
The goal of today would have been to start out hitting hard either to distance or to specifically work with the town player I was attacking, and to leverage that narrative of a playstyle switch to swing it back and seal a 3-0 shutout. I am never going deep in this table and it does not matter who the other 2 scum are, I would clearly be last priority.
you misunderstand, it feels like you are saying his whole demeanor changed on you because you started pushing him, and i really do not think that is the case
separate from that i do not see how his opening on you today really displays a change in tone from the start to where we ended up
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:33 am
by Kismet
In post 2967, Iverson wrote:This is going to be read as a confessional but I really can't resist.
There are several issues with me being scum here, but hypothetically my start today would have been intentionally scummy with the goal of looping in this narrative of a playstyle shift later. I'm very attuned to the power of narratives and am very intentional about leveraging them as scum. I start out getting a handle on the table, but at a certain point I develop a preternatural instinct for what will be townread, when, and to what extent by the players in the table. The daystart is something I have pulled out all the time as Iverson and I am acutely aware that the hyperaggression gets scumread.
The goal of today would have been to start out hitting hard either to distance or to specifically work with the town player I was attacking, and to leverage that narrative of a playstyle switch to swing it back and seal a 3-0 shutout. I am never going deep in this table and it does not matter who the other 2 scum are, I would clearly be last priority.
i'm just ignoring this as you're perfectly capable of making this post as either alignment
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:34 am
by Iverson
All of that said, I am legitimately town, and the playstyle shift is because, as mentioned previously, hyperaggression for its own sake without caring that I would wind up getting voted was silly and unfair to the other town, even if it's their responsibility to read me correctly.
I've put forth more than enough effort this game, and I'm fine with putting the game down, but this is my explicit warning that I am not phoning it in as scum, and that I am very willing to play on as town.
you misunderstand, it feels like you are saying his whole demeanor changed on you because you started pushing him, and i really do not think that is the case
separate from that i do not see how his opening on you today really displays a change in tone from the start to where we ended up
I don't really see this point of conversation as productive any longer.
If you have something more concrete you would like to ask me that might result in an unvote, feel free. Anything else you can save it and trust that I don't give away partners easily anyway.
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:36 am
by Kismet
In post 2967, Iverson wrote:There are several issues with me being scum here
what are these issues?
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:38 am
by Kismet
additionally: why were you so sure ydrasse was scum eod yesterday and then went nowhere w/ that today?
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:41 am
by Kismet
In post 2970, Iverson wrote:All of that said, I am legitimately town, and the playstyle shift is because, as mentioned previously, hyperaggression for its own sake without caring that I would wind up getting voted was silly and unfair to the other town, even if it's their responsibility to read me correctly.
as an aside this really isn't contributing to my read and in fact you felt more aggressive in 2181 then you do here