Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[gootentag]

As far as male leaders are concerned, the only person that might clear would be Eponine at this point. Valjean as mayor fits, I the bishop fit, and Enjorlas could also be construed as fitting. Javert is a stretch, but he did infiltrate the baricade, right? Was he a person of any statue within the police force, such as chief? I mean, each could be considered a leader in some sense.

Right now I'm leaning towards a

FOS: Lord Krishna.

Especially if there is no Mme Thenardier, I'm not sold on Javert as a good guy. If there is one, then obviously someone is lying. Furthermore, his results on me are ambiguous enough to lead a lynch party but not strong enough that he couldn't back his way out next day when I turn out to be a townie.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm leaning towards Lord Krishna too. Javert could be the leader of a group - he was a senior police officer and would have had men under him.

However, that begs the question: if if LordKrishna/Javert is scum, how did he get such a good knowledge of gootentag's role? Unless it was a lucky guess, he must have the power to investigate one person and yet kill another in the same night! (Surely no scum would ever give up a nightkill in a game this small?)

[Changling bob]

I admit that it does look like I could be scum. However, there is a method that could be used to prove my innocence. If I am not to be lynched, before we cast a lynching vote (or MeMe using her ability), between us we pick a person for me to attempt to recruit. If I recruit them then they are bound to get message telling them so, which would vindicate me, as I'm sure this is not something that would happen with a scum group that is trying to kill all the townies, or at least not in the same scum group. Also, if I them am killed in my recruit attempt, we have a large hint towards who is scum.

Admittedly this could mean that I am a second scum group, but I think the game would be too small for one, besides the point that I'm not.

Mr Stoofer, I realise that you have not claimed an ability yet. I accounted for this in my above discussion. If you have a role, then almost all of the original town is power, which doesn't really balance out with scum. I'm not convinced that you are scum by what you've said, but then I'm not convinced about anyone, so meh

[Mr Stoofer]

but then I'm not convinced about anyone

You and me both, mate .

[Aelyn]

Monsieur hugo stands up, preparing to announce the current flow of suspicion. He pauses, frowns, counts quickly on his fingers, shrugs and sits down again.

No-one is currently voting.

[Mr Stoofer]

However, that begs the question: if if LordKrishna/Javert is scum, how did he get such a good knowledge of gootentag's role? Unless it was a lucky guess, he must have the power to investigate one person and yet kill another in the same night! (Surely no scum would ever give up a nightkill in a game this small?)

Gootentag gave a plausible answer to this above. I've just worked out 2 more plausible answers: (1) LordKrishna had convinced himself that gootentag was Eponine and created an investigation result to match her (2) He created an ambiguous result which would read on to a huge number of people (any of the revolutionaries, Valjean, anyone who was mates with Valjean, even the Bishop and the lying Nun, any of the "shady" but good characters such as Eponine or Gavroche, etc etc. indeed almost anyone (even Javert because he posed as a revolutionary!).)

[MeMe]

Stoofer - why don't you go ahead and put all your cards on the table?

gootentag - why don't you tell us who you protected both nights? One course of action we might consider pursuing is to lynch the person he says he's made unlynchable...if that person lives, we're 3-1 tomorrow (unless CB is a hostile recruiter -- see below). If that person dies, gootentag's the obvious scum (comments please -- just something I've been playing around with...don't know if this is workable). However, I'll say that if goot's scum, he must be lying about his role name and probably mechanic as well -- but giving up his vote is quite a commitment for a lie. The Bishop of Digne was not a leader of a sizable group...nor would he ever shoot anyone...the book makes a point to say that he "was not as hostile to insects as a gardener could have wished to see him," which is rather the same as saying he wouldn't hurt a fly.

CB - if you're scum, I have a big problem allowing you to recruit. Since you're the only mason left, it makes sense to me that you'd be recruiting someone into a scum group at this point (again, IF you're scum). This might also explain why your partner would have been killed overnight...perhaps you're recruiting into a mason group when you're both alive, but scum group if only the scum half is surviving? Just a ramble, mind you, but it does worry me.

As for LK -- he's our only claimed cop. I stated on day 1 that I believe that Javert would, thematically, be on the side of the town. I do not believe he commanded a group of men -- but my memory could be fuzzy on this bookwise. In the play, however, he chases Valjean into Fantine's deathroom and struggles with him alone...and infiltrates the group at the barricade alone. When I think of him, I always picture him as a lone figure of absolute law...he kills himself because he cannot live with the fact that he made a just decision which went against the letter of the law.

Basically, if we

must

lynch someone, I think it should be Enjolras over Javert. Since CB's claimed recruiting powers, I think he's the more dangerous.

[gootentag]

Night One I chose not to target anyone. Since we were on a blank slate, I didn't want my ability to "get in the way" of properly lynching scum. Unfortunately, last night, I figured that if LML was telling the truth, the only way he was going to get killed was if he got lynched, so I decided to target him. Sure enough, he's not getting lynched.

It is possible that I could announce my targets during twilight or something of that nature, but without a doctor claimed, I don't feel comfortable that this would avert the situation in the future.

[Changling bob]

@MeMe: I can see where you're coming from about my possibly being scum. However, if I were scum, wouldn't I have not claimed when vikingfan were up for a lynch? It would be easy enough to deny all knowledge of the masonry, and then I would be one townie down. And if I were a scum group recruiting, wouldn't I have been doing that every night so far? I mean, if I recruit into a scum group, there would be almost no disadvantage to recruiting every night, yet I have never used any ability that I have (besides my logic and voting skillz). I realise that there is no real way to prove beyond all doubt that I'm not scum without me dying, so if we can find some way that I can prove my innocence without me dying then by all means I'll try it out.

And I would also prefer for Mr Stoofer to fully claim so that we have a more thorough set of information to work with, evn though someone will be lying.

I think that the idea that LordKrishna came up with a very non-commital investigation result that could be taken any way, however I agree with MeMe that lynching our only claimed cop is a bad move.

[LordKrishna]

I'm back.

Will post substantively tonight (10 PST)

For now, two points.

1) Javert is not a leader. He's essentially a vigilante who is sanctioned by the law. In the book (prob. the musical too??), he works alone, and dies alone. He's free (unlike cops in real life), to endlessly pursue one guy, and doesn't really seem to do any other cop-like things (no parking tickets in those days, but still, you see what I mean). That said, I don't think we should rely on Aelyn's flavor text..

2) I don't think my claim is non-committal at all -- it's pretty clear to me that we should not lynch gootentag. He's *just about* shady enough to arrest, but not scum (based on how I interpret what my results were). I think that being the Bishop might work... I'll think about this more and post more later.

-K

[Mr Stoofer]

If Javert/LordKrishna isn't scum (and having slept on it, I'm beginning to come round to that view), then his result on gootentag is genuine; and therefore gootentag is unlikely to be scum. That leaves (in my mind at least) Changling Bob as the best candidate to be EmpTyger's partner.

I've just done a quick read of all EmpyTyger's and CB's posts (

after

writing the above paragraph), looking for references which each of them make to the other. Having done that excercise, its very easy to believe that they are partners. Perhaps the rest of you could do that excercise and see if you agree.

I also really don't like post 308 as it is stuffed with Craplogic. Bob, if you are scum, it was plainly in your interest to confirm vikingfan since (a) in the minds of many (including me, because I did not consider split alignment masons) it cleared you and (b) if you had not confirmed vikingfan he would have known you were scum.

[LordKrishna]

Back a bit later than I expected. Oh well, no one seems to have been around since my last post.

Everyone seems to be waiting on Mr. Stoofer to post a more complete claim. I too, will add my voice on this. I, again, am suspicious of Eponine, being the daughter of Thenardier, and all, and being the cruel stepsister (as I recall, though my memory is hazy, and I'm not that far in the book again), though not enough for a FOS.

ChanglingBob:

...if I were scum, wouldn't I have not claimed when vikingfan were up for a lynch? It would be easy enough to deny all knowledge of the masonry, and then I would be one townie down. And if I were a scum group recruiting, wouldn't I have been doing that every night so far?

The first point doesn't work, because vikingfan yelling out for you to help him out, might have forced you to come forward with an explanation. The second point, though, might valid. You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night? Oh, and I like that you have "voting skillz".

As far as male leaders are concerned, the only person that might clear would be Eponine at this point.

This does not follow. It makes an assumption, and a large one at that. It assumes that the "leader of the group" in the flavor text, that pulls a gun out of his pocket to shoot Marius, is Mafia. There is no reason why Eponine could not have been the scum, who hired some nameless, NPC goons (after all, there is also more than one person in the group -- does that imply there are 2 or more scum left?!)

I claimed and used my ability yesterday when I sent the game into early twilight by finishing off EmpTyger myself. Remember?

MeMe, you never did fully claim/explain this one, and I never got it. Would you mind explaining it now?

I just thought, since I, gootentag, Mr. Stoofer, and ChanglingBob are all under the glass, so to speak, that I'd bring up a point (that is, admittedly, rather wacky), just to bring MeMe in a little bit as well.

Wouldn't it have been awesome if Aelyn had made Jean Valjean and Thenardier the Mafia? Thematically, of course, it wouldn't work at all, but I gather that such things don't HAVE to work out that way in these things...? Had he done this, of course, EmpTyger and MeMe could have concocted the (absolutely brilliant) plan of sacrificing Thenardier for the win.

I'm not sure that this makes any sense at all, I'm just pointing out that it is interesting, and, I believe, there is no way to test this hypothesis than to lynch someone and see what happens. Just more fun hypotheticals in the land of Krishna, sleepy-time-style.

-K

[Changling bob]

Given what people have said, I'll admit crap logic in 308. But I've got nothing to prove I'm not scum, and as opinion appears to be steering my way, I'd rather say something that might work, rather than nothing which obviously wouldn't. Another thought: If I were scum, wouldn't I have just claimed vanilla mason, rather than saying I can recruit, or that I can encite revolution? I don't think I even mentioned this to vikingfan before I claimed in the thread, as I didn't get the chance due to a short night deadline, so he couldn't have pointed out the hole in my claim if I left it out.

Anyway, Mr Stoofer, please claim your abilities. Character-wise, your claim seems scummiest, but let's not try to outguess the mod and all that jazz.

And responding to Mr Stoofer's point that my and EmpTyger's posts indicate that we are partners; I was more willing to believe 'I made a joke on April Fool's day, derf' than 'this is blatently a huge tell' (even if the second did turn out to be right). Once MeMe counter-claimed EmpTyger's claim, I was no longer sure what to think, and decided to go back through the thread. Although I only managed to do this after EmpTyger was lynched, it struck me how many people thought EmpTyger was scummy towards the beginning of the game, and I would have changed my vote had I logged on before the lynch.

[MeMe]

You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?

I don't agree with it being obvious that he's not used his power to recruit. If he was successful last night, how would those who hadn't been recruited know it unless we were told? I admit that I

doubt

he did so -- but I don't want to assume he didn't.

My power explained: extra, anonymous vote once during the game.

Stoofer: no more beating about -- lay your claim out fully.

[Mr Stoofer]

OK, everyone wants me to claim my role mechanics and so I will. At the end of this post I explain why I was reluctant to do so unless required.

Every night I choose someone to hang around. As the estranged daughter of the Thernadiers, I will try frustrate them if they try to harm that person. That is how I knew that Thernadier(s) were scum.

Furthermore, because of my time acting as a lookout for my parents, I will out of habit distract any government agents that try to do anything to the person I am hanging around. I originally interpreted this to mean that that person would be immune from investigation. Of course, if Javert is scum then I would be a straightforward doc.

My target is not made aware that I am hanging around them.

I can see no harm in revealing my nightchoices now but I’ll hold off in case someone wants to point out a good reason not to.

As for why I was reluctant:
1. Having a protection role means I am now the mafia’s number 1 target.
2. Everyone keeps going on about how there are too many powerful town roles so I was (and still am) scared that I won’t be believed.

[gootentag]

Wouldn't it have been awesome if Aelyn had made Jean Valjean and Thenardier the Mafia? Thematically, of course, it wouldn't work at all, but I gather that such things don't HAVE to work out that way in these things...? Had he done this, of course, EmpTyger and MeMe could have concocted the (absolutely brilliant) plan of sacrificing Thenardier for the win.

While I agree that it would be an interesting choice for the mod to make in a game like this, the problem is it takes all of the weight out of name claiming. Speculating what the scum roles are makes sense day one, but now that we have one dead scum, it seems to me that it should serve as a general indicator as to what direction the game was alligned.

[MeMe]

I'm satisfied with Stoofer's explanation. I'm suspicious of Changling bob & LordKrishna.

Cb
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.

LK
--Although I wouldn't personally ever make Javert evil, I'm concerned about his latest post in which he puts forth the theories of 1) EmpTyger and I being the mafia team who concocted the "brilliant" plan of removing one of us from the game on Day 1 thereby securing the win (if there are/were only two scum, as I believe, this would

not

be brilliant) and 2) that Eponine hired an NPC group (which is, though creative, ridiculous thematically as Eponine is destitute). The more he talks, the less comfortable I am that he's to be trusted.

[LordKrishna]

You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?

I don't agree with it being obvious that he's not used his power to recruit.

This is an incorrect interpretation of my earlier statement -- read again, with the word 'obviously' boldfaced, drawing attention to word order:
"Bob, you haven't

obviously

used your power to recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?"

MeMe, your reasons of being suspicious of me are completely unfounded. Let's take them both apart, shall we?

Although I wouldn't personally ever make Javert evil, I'm concerned about his latest post in which he puts forth the theories of 1) EmpTyger and I being the mafia team who concocted the "brilliant" plan of removing one of us from the game on Day 1 thereby securing the win (if there are/were only two scum, as I believe, this would

not

be brilliant)

Two reasons why this fails as a 'me-being-scum' argument:
1) I didn't put it forth as a theory, I just brought it up as I thought it would be interesting. Everyone seems to be saying that it would make no sense to do this, as (as gootentag put it) it "takes all the weight out of role-claiming").
2) Yes, I contend it would be absolutely brilliant. Why? Well, if we lynch Thenardier, then we would all look at point 1, and refuse to lynch Jean Valjean, right? This would be true no matter what day this happens on. Again, I'm not saying this makes you scum, MeMe (as I think it's not likely for Thenardier and Valjean to be scum together), but don't discount it as a bad plan, given the silly setup I posited...

2) that Eponine hired an NPC group (which is, though creative, ridiculous thematically as Eponine is destitute). The more he talks, the less comfortable I am that he's to be trusted.

Again, you are mis-interpreting my words. I brought up the idea that it is stupid to rely on the flavor text as our determiner of who is guilty. I do not believe that the scum needs to be a leader, or to be a male. Again, I was positing a hypothetical in which it could be true that Eponine would be scum, while not actually pulling the trigger in the flavor text

because I don't think it is at all important

. The flavor text also had me pull

Victor Hugo's

gun out of his pocket and finish off EmpTyger. Victor Hugo is obviously not a character in his own book, nor is he able to affect the outcome, so why does he have a gun? (etc. etc. -- My point is that all such considerations are inane). Also, if, as you say, MeMe, your power is to double your vote anonymously, then my act of pulling the trigger in the flavor text would not matter at all, so, again, my contention stands -- the flavor text is irrelevant.

Oh, and MeMe, it doesn't make any sense to suspect that Javert is in cahoots with Thenardier. That's just as ridiculous as Valjean-Thenardier.

Assuming the following roles are true:
Mr. Stoofer - Eponine
gootentag - Bishop of Digne
MeMe - Jean Valjean
ChanglingBob - Enjolras

I find it hard to believe that any of them, excepting Eponine, would be teamed up with Thenardier. Thoughts?

Mr. Stoofer, it really seems the burden is on you to figure out who your Mme. Thenardier is.

I do not discount the possibility of there being one, MeMe, despite the lack of M. Thenardier. Why? In the book, he is not referred to as M. Thenardier, but simply as Thenardier, as is (still!) common in France, for the man to simply be known by the last name, but the woman to need Mme. in front, to imply that she is the wife of that person.

-K

[MeMe]

You haven't obviously haven't used your power to incite revolution or recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?

I don't agree with it being obvious that he's not used his power to recruit.

This is an incorrect interpretation of my earlier statement -- read again, with the word 'obviously' boldfaced, drawing attention to word order:
"Bob, you haven't

obviously

used your power to recruit, but how do we know that you didn't, say, try to recruit LML last night?"

Well, let me show you how the original quote looked...and kindly focus on the words

I've

bolded:

"You

haven't

obviously

haven't

..."

So, sure. When you remove the second "haven't" in your original post, the meaning you're now claiming is clear. But when you remove the first (as I mentally did), it's clear in a DIFFERENT way. Your post was confusing and you've misrepresented it above. I'm not sure why you're trying to lay blame for misunderstanding at my feet when it's easy enough to check where any confusion originated (seeing as you quoted the confusing passage yourself). Why not just admit a typo? Or is this fallout from me saying that innocents, when falsely accused, think their accusers are imbeciles? Huh. Something to ponder...real or put-on?

MeMe, your reasons of being suspicious of me are completely unfounded. Let's take them both apart, shall we?

Although I wouldn't personally ever make Javert evil, I'm concerned about his latest post in which he puts forth the theories of 1) EmpTyger and I being the mafia team who concocted the "brilliant" plan of removing one of us from the game on Day 1 thereby securing the win (if there are/were only two scum, as I believe, this would

not

be brilliant)

Two reasons why this fails as a 'me-being-scum' argument:
1) I didn't put it forth as a theory, I just brought it up as I thought it would be interesting. Everyone seems to be saying that it would make no sense to do this, as (as gootentag put it) it "takes all the weight out of role-claiming").

That's "putting forth" a theory, LK. You're not saying that you believe it -- but you did suggest it as a possibility. Just like I put forth the theory that Enjolras, being a male leader of a group, could be the shooter in the morning scene. I'm not saying that I necessarily

believe

he's the shooter -- but the theory's out there because I put it out there. Why dodge ownership of your own theories?

Let me also point out that you said the only way to test the "hypothesis" would be to "lynch someone and see what happens" (and since I'm the only one left on which to test it -- I think it's reasonable for me to assume you meant "lynch MeMe and see what happens" as a test).

2) Yes, I contend it would be absolutely brilliant. Why? Well, if we lynch Thenardier, then we would all look at point 1, and refuse to lynch Jean Valjean, right? This would be true no matter what day this happens on. Again, I'm not saying this makes you scum, MeMe (as I think it's not likely for Thenardier and Valjean to be scum together), but don't discount it as a bad plan, given the silly setup I posited...

I completely disagree with you here. Surviving day one in a 2 to 7 scum set up would be optimal. Attacking a partner unnecessarily to bring the count to 1 to 5 the next day (as there'd be no way for scum to know there was a suicidal pro-town role) is rather unbrilliant. Again, you're not doing much to make me think you're trustworthy by defending your "silly" set-up and "brilliant" scum plan theory (or "hypothesis," whichever you prefer) here.

2) that Eponine hired an NPC group (which is, though creative, ridiculous thematically as Eponine is destitute). The more he talks, the less comfortable I am that he's to be trusted.

Again, you are mis-interpreting my words. I brought up the idea that it is stupid to rely on the flavor text as our determiner of who is guilty. I do not believe that the scum needs to be a leader, or to be a male. Again, I was positing a hypothetical in which it could be true that Eponine would be scum, while not actually pulling the trigger in the flavor text

because I don't think it is at all important

. The flavor text also had me pull

Victor Hugo's

gun out of his pocket and finish off EmpTyger. Victor Hugo is obviously not a character in his own book, nor is he able to affect the outcome, so why does he have a gun? (etc. etc. -- My point is that all such considerations are inane). Also, if, as you say, MeMe, your power is to double your vote anonymously, then my act of pulling the trigger in the flavor text would not matter at all, so, again, my contention stands -- the flavor text is irrelevant.

If you keep putting words on the page, you must assume that they will be analyzed. If they're not to be taken literally, please don't expect me to know that and say that I've "misinterpreted" you later. I think that all flavor text (especially night scenes) should be looked at for clues. I put an emphasis on night scenes because they tell us the things that happened of which we

aren't

all aware. We can decide to ignore it, but to do so pre-emptively just seems wasteful to me. You introducing the "maybe Eponine hired the people I think we should be ignoring," possibility was something I thought you were seriously suggesting.

Oh, and MeMe, it doesn't make any sense to suspect that Javert is in cahoots with Thenardier. That's just as ridiculous as Valjean-Thenardier.

Well, the difference is that I've said repeatedly that I don't believe Javert is scum, nor have I put forth a theory where they would be connected. You, on the other hand, seem to think that a "ridiculous" pairing such as Valjean-Thenardier is possible enough to mention it as an "awesome" idea. Get it straight -- it isn't your claimed role that concerns me, it's your posts.

Mr. Stoofer, it really seems the burden is on you to figure out who your Mme. Thenardier is.

I do not discount the possibility of there being one, MeMe, despite the lack of M. Thenardier.

Why would the burden be on Stoofer to "figure out" who Mme. Thenardier is? And I agree it's possible that Mme. Thenardier's in the game...but I still doubt it. I'll play along, though -- if there were a Mme. Thenardier in the game, she'd have to be either gootentag or yourself. Right?

Your reaction to my suspicions on you seems pretty over-the-top to me, especially because I think it was pretty clear that Changling bob was still my favorite suspect. I'm also pretty interested in the fact that at the end of the day one, you chided me for not noticing that you generally post later in the evening...but now you seem to have gained access without problem in the middle of the day. If I were a suspicious type (and, make no mistake, I

am

), I'd have to wonder if you were simply avoiding the thread yesterday...and I'd have to ask myself (again, make no mistake, I'm askin') whether the reason EmpTyger said that he agreed with me about Javert not being mafia was because he knew Javert

was

mafia.

Can't wait to hear how my current post is completely unfounded. Oooh! And I still have Changling bob's retort to anticipate! Happy,

happy

day.

[LordKrishna]

Whoops. I did make a mistake -- I wrote the word "haven't" twice. OK, then you're right, it was totally wrong. I apologize for not reading it over more carefully. What I meant, again, was that Bob has not used his ability in an obvious way, but that he may have used it at night, in secret.

Why would the burden be on Stoofer to "figure out" who Mme. Thenardier is?

Because he is the only one who contends that Mme. Thenardier is definitely in the game, so he needs to figure out who she is. He hasn't responded to this, and I still think that Eponine is the most likely to be scum, so I'm going to

VOTE: Mr. Stoofer

to see if that will bring anything out.

if there were a Mme. Thenardier in the game, she'd have to be either gootentag or yourself. Right?

This is only true if we assume that Mr. Stoofer, yourself, and ChanglingBob claimed accurately. Obviously, above, I have agreed that Eponine is more likely than another Mme. Thenardier, but I will allow that if Stoofer is telling the truth (his claim is ultra-convoluted, go back and look over it anyone, and try to explain in very small words to me), that Mme. Thenardier exists in the game. At this point, I'd say gootentag is far more likely than me. Why? Because Javert's inherently more suspicious-sounding than the Bishop. It's far more clever to claim a minor character, one that no one else is likely to claim (as I posted just before I left for Chicago).

I'm also pretty interested in the fact that at the end of the day one, you chided me for not noticing that you generally post later in the evening...but now you seem to have gained access without problem in the middle of the day.

I do generally post in the evening, MeMe, but I think it rather crass of you to accuse me based on access needs. Not everyone has a computer at their disposal 24/7. I have a computer at home, and I'm happy to logon to the site every night to check. During the day, however, I work as a teacher, so I'm not usually able to do so. This past week, school was out for Spring Break (that is also how I was able to fly out to Chicago midweek).

There is no over-the-top reaction to suspicion when you are the cop. I'm getting taken down tonight, you realize, if we mis-lynch, so I'd better get the scum lynched today. Also, I feel that your tone hasn't been all that friendly, but I assume it is the effect of text rather than words. Nevertheless, let's try to keep this game friendly, shall we?

-K

[MeMe]

I'm not going to talk over your entire post this time, but I will respond to this...

I do generally post in the evening, MeMe, but I think it rather crass of you to accuse me based on access needs. Not everyone has a computer at their disposal 24/7. I have a computer at home, and I'm happy to logon to the site every night to check. During the day, however, I work as a teacher, so I'm not usually able to do so. This past week, school was out for Spring Break (that is also how I was able to fly out to Chicago midweek).

--Yesterday you made a point of saying that you tend to post late at night and that it [should have been] somewhat clear.
--Today you call me "crass" for remembering what you said on Day 1.

Now, I don't know anything other than what I'm told in the thread. Since you say you're a teacher, I'm going to assume that you have the ability to reason...

1) if someone makes a point of saying that their normal access time is late at night and
2) posts start occurring with regularity outside of that time frame without explanation...

...that the logical conclusions are...

a) point one was never true or
b) point one is no longer true.

Since you didn't say one way or another, it's simple thoroughness for me to bring it up. Basically, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that your schedule is usually one way and then get indignant when I point out that you're no longer keeping to it. A simple explanation would have sufficed, so I'm pretty confused about your defensive tone and I find it rather ironic that you're telling

me

to keep it friendly. There is no basis for the allegation of crassness when I've questioned/disagreed with/challenged the

content

of your posts -- and will continue to do so as I see fit.

[Changling bob]

Might as well get this over with first.

<snip>
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.
<snip>

To go through your points in order:
--In what way would Enjolras be connected to Thenardier in a scum based capacity?
--I don't know what happens if I recruit scum. I'd rather not try it out if it's all the same to you
--I made a mistake. I laughed at a joke. Then you claimed and I didn't get time between your claim and the lynch to voice my suspicions.
--Well if you're willing to accept that you are, in fact, an imbecile, then I'll happily treat you like one. As is, I'll deal with your arguements as I see them.

I agree that there's no way for you to tell that I haven't used my recruitment ability, but then there's no way for any of us to confirm who anybody else used their ability on, or even what they are.

But anyways, at the moment, I think LordKrishna tends to be doing a lot of backpedaling. What with all the arguement with MeMe, you seem to be digging yourself into a hole. I can't pick up any individual thing that you've said to be especially scummy, but as a whole they seem to be leaning that way. You also seem to be happy to throw a vote around when no-one else has bothered. Now personally, I don't find anything wrong with Mr Stoofer's post, nor do I find any indication of him saying that Mme. Thenardier is in the game. He does however suggest that the flavour text of his role implys that a 'government agent' may be scum.
Now, I'm not saying placing a first vote is scummy, but it seems a rather desperate tactic, especially when you consider the vote is for someone that appears to have pointed The Finger™, your way, just like the 'lets lynch someone and see what happens'.

Now the question is, are you volunteering?

[gootentag]

@ LK - as has been established, it is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists. I think it's safe to assume if she existed, she would be scum. Therefore, it is the job of the whole town to find her. After all, that IS the point of the game, right? You washing your hands of finding scum is both suspicious and ironic for a claimed cop. Furthermore, voting for him based on information that may be helpful he provided from his PM is rather damning as well.

MeMe's right - it's precarious to point fingers at a claimed cop, but I also find it hard to believe that a cop would be trying to lynch and voting for the one person who could keep him alive another day - the claimed doctor. FOS stands - your actions are not congruent with your claim.

[gootentag]

Once again - bump to get through recent game closures.

[Mr Stoofer]

It's difficult to be objective when you are considering a post that is about and directed and yourself. But even so, I find LordKrishna's post 309, where he votes me and says that it is all down to me to find Mme Thernadier, quite extraordinary. I don't think that the he even gave a single reasons why I might be scum. While putting on a vote to "mix it up" is standard day 1 play, I find it a rather remarkable thing to do when we are down to 5 alive.

To clarify my claim, if you believe the flavourtext in my PM, the scum could include Thernadier goons and not just those with the name Thernadier. That wasn't clear from my earlier post: but it I was treading a fine line between being as full and open as possible about a fairly complex role, but not quoting my PM.

I know others disagree, but I could easily accept a set up with 2 independent SKs, namley Thernadier and Javert. That would make me a standard doc and would make perfect sense. It would explan why there is only one Thernadier in the game. And it would explain LK's rather odd statements of late.