Mafiascum.net

(Catching up... chronologically, so somethings may be repetitive, bear with me... I also think I need to go back to somethings I may have left unanswered prior to where I am picking this up from... If there's anything glaringly missing, let me know)

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:And Benmage's play is terribly scummy as I've outlined.

.......... Not really we've had a back n fourth.

Wanna bullet for me why I am terribly scummy.

I dont know what to make of post 178.

↑ Korlash wrote:What if he makes that post and them someone other than you comes in and hammers?

What if he makes that post and four people unvote him?

How is posting reads based on information that isn't true a pro-town act exactly?

Whats wrong with a clear succinct post as to why the people MoI thinks are scum, are scum. That would what? Help others see MoI's point of view... Doesn't MoI"town" want to help others find out who the scum are?

↑ Korlash wrote:
Why would him telling you reads based on something you MADE UP that DOESN'T CURRENTLY EXISTS qualify as a pro-town act? This has nothing to do with him lying, it has to do with the situation you've given him being untrue and hypothetical.

Did I fail to read or forget something huge?

Was PV not asking MoI for essentially last words?

This whole thing is referring to this post: post 188

Right? Thats a legitimate hypothetical question. Its preemptive last words. When at L-1, tis the time to give final reads. I don't understand the flak for the question.....

↑ Korlash wrote:explain to me how it's pro-town to give reads based on stuff that hasn't happened yet?

This seems so dense...

You give last reads before the hammer. Not after....

-His alluding to being able to delay, is likely some scum lie.

↑ Korlash wrote:

Pere wrote:Well. Exactly two games are being referenced. The tit-for-tat thing, and this one.

Nope. Lies. I warned you before this started to look into it. Now you've intentionally spread slander on another player over a situation you decided not to even look into. Enjoy your scum points.

Incredibly unnecessarily difficult. No town motivation for being obtuse. Its easy to see what PV meant. (SO Affc was also mentioned, big deal...)

↑ Korlash wrote:There is a third game being referenced which both you and Yates ignored.

And all this does is strengthen their point.

SO why be difficult. MoI was scum doing the same action in AFFC.

↑ Korlash wrote:
And it destroys your scum tell because the word "ALSO" was in reference to tit for tat and affc, not this game. When i first looked into this 'scum tell' of yours I could understand that within five seconds of reading PLUS MOI even said that in his post 72. Your scum tell is complete crap and you appear willfully ignorance of important details like the presence of a third game or how the bloody conversation even started.

I agree. I don't think the "slip" is a slip. But are you really accusing them of trying to manufacture the slip? And leave out such obvious details? Details yourself understood in 5 seconds? Come on.

↑ Korlash wrote:
Why should my opinion of MOI's alignment factor into your shit attacks or my comments on them? If I attack you and you properly defend yourself, why should my opinion on your alignment factor into it? Why should you even care, if you're able to properly justify your actions it wouldn't matter if I thought you were scum or not.

Its alot easier, and I've seen it done a bunch for scum to attack the sound-ness of an argument of another rather than actually scumhunt themselves. Find flaws in the opponents argument and it can't be valid. Right Socrates.


post 220
--Remind me to look here and at this guy again.


I like this post: post 221

↑ Korlash wrote:
Ah, and there-in lies my point. You have become convinced you need to do something in order to appear town. This is why

the 'need to commit' is scum thinking.

Thats not true. And if you adhere to varying mafia theory... well thats you. But town need opinions and information, and others opinions to analyze said opinions and go from there.

↑ Korlash wrote:
Back on point, I'm not for the practice of 'committing' to things just for the sake of taking a stance. I'm more interested in committing to the right stance and damn however people decide to look at me for it. I would hope that my feelings would come out during my play on their own without me having to force them. Now this is hardly ever the case, especially in a game like this, so I'm not against giving my reads when asked but I won't do such just to appease someone.

On a side note, I didn't ask you why should I commit to something, I asked why I should feel the need to do so. Tricky question, sure, but certainly important to see my side of all this.

Ah alright this echos true.

So angle-ly... I can't tell if I like you or hate you.

↑ Korlash wrote:
Ben for his weirdly suspicious rush to defend MOI's use of meta to attack V2V. It didn't make a lot of sense why he would go to such levels to argue with me over it while thinking MOI is scum, although it appears his cause to vote was based on meta so the argument may merely have been about that and not MOI specifically. I'm not convinced as to his alignment but I still rank him as suspicious due to the weirdness of it all.

Wait, maybe I'm reading this wrong.

I did attack MoI for his weak attacks on V2V, did I not?

↑ Korlash wrote:Pere for his 'intent to hammer' while having never mentioned the case/discussion on MOI all game. That and the whole "give us your reads" things seems like a rather fake and easy way to go about it. i.e. not that easyy for scum to come in, not say a word, and then hammer... but going this route would give him a pretty viable excuse. His defenses of it so far... lackluster and unconvincing.

Thats not too shabby.

↑ vijay2vasandani wrote:
When I say too blatant, in your case he outright says "i am scum here too" following your interpretation of what he said.

Mmmmm.....not really....

↑ Yates wrote:
People may not agree with my posts or arguments but at least they know what I am thinking and why I'm thinking it [for the most part]. If I get NKed, I like to hope that I may have left a couple pieces of good information out there that might help catch scum. I'm still

relatively

new to this site but that's how we always played mafia elsewhere. I'm adapting but still find it to be good policy.

I think this might be what i was getting at before. Nonetheless I like it.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:

Benmage

– His scum-hunting is very inconsistent, contradictory and generally looks very much like someone looking to portray someone as scummy as opposed to actually looking to find scum.

-Its consistent. And Not contradictory. And I think you mean, I'm actually trying to find scum. TY.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
On one hand Benmage things limited use meta is strong scum evidence – the first point in his case at Post 123 is that “He's opened this way twice before as scum. Check.”. Thus me having two occurrences where I opened the game with a specific type of RVS vote as scum is

very strong evidence

.

Very strong evidence is putting words in my mouth. In fact I list it as a subsection of a different point. More like something to note, as one notch in the many notches as to why you are scum.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Yet when presented with equally strong evidence that certain behavior of mine via meta is evidence I am Town he attempts to handwave it away as irrelevant. Pure Cognitive Dissoance – he only believe that meta is ‘strong’ when it serves his purposes. When it works against him? It’s meaningless.

Where was this?

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Then we have gems like this on the subject–

Benmage wrote: MoI in the same way your trying to refute my claim that scum slow claim or refuse to claim with personal Meta, YOU SHOULD be self voting because I used your Meta yo show you open games the way you did here.

What is the point of this other than circular logic rhetoric? I mean the premise of it is ludicrously bad – I should self-vote because I opened with an RVS vote similar to how I have as scum in the past. Nevermind the fact that self-voting is moronic regardless of my actual alignment so this is just rhetoric fluff as opposed to actual scum-hunting.

This is a "gem"..ZzzzZZzzz

Did you not comprehend the context of my statement. Of course the idea of self-voting would be ludicrious. You try to dismiss my point in post 152 with this post: post 158. You're using your meta to suggest that AS SCUM you would be acting like XXX. (XXX being creating fakeclaims like the cop claim in AFFC) You also use your previous meta to further defend your position by saying you refuse to claim in Oobas game, and Seinfelds game. (LIKE I remember every facet of OObasa game. (Which doesn't even matter here))

SO YOU are the one putting so much value into self meta. Saying you act like XXX when scum, and YYY when town. USING your use of meta I said you've acted like ZZZ (ZZZ being the way you opened this game, and two games previously as scum) ANd made the quip that you should self vote. Adhering to YOU giving such credence to meta.

I was mocking you suggesting your town behavior must be this, and your scum behavior must be that. To think that ones play is always identical is ludicrious.

That is my point. I don't give a fuck if you created fakeclaims in the past as scum, and refused to claim in the past as town. (Just like I think the opener only a MINOR point). I think you can easily manipulate your meta. I know I sure as hell don't make two scum games look alike.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
And let’s look at some other inconsistencies in his logic –

He's a good player. You aren't going to just catch a good player going 'I'm scum you got me '.

So I’m a good player. Yet I’m easily caught by making a RVS vote that you twigged to immediately. That’s not indicative of a good player. So again he's making arguments that justify his stance as particular junctures as opposed to arguments he believes.

ZOMG EVERYTHING ISNT 100% CONSISTENT. Cause good players never make mistakes, or forget past things....Zzzzzzz Bullshit. You're good (which is a really arbitrary word anyways, but I digress) yes. Infallible....zzzz

I think your scum for an entirely different litany of reasons. The opener is but a minor point that helped me poke an interest. The incredible scum manner which has ensued has convinced me you're scum.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Next we have his references he refuses to back up –

Refuses..... ZZZZ, can anyone link me refusing to do this for MoI. PUHLEASE. (hint hint, I never did, just more dung from MoI to paint me negatively)

But MoI, you are quite right. It wasn’t Supernatural Mafia. It was a Storm of Swords:

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Next we have his references he refuses to back up –

He keeps making some reference to Supernatural Mafia (a large Theme we played awhile ago) in which we were Neighbors together – I was Town and he was scum. He said that he remembers the following in Post 120

Really, because I remember you using my calling of you out for undermining as an example to call out other scum when you were town. Wasn't the game Supernatural Mafia?

Firstly I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. I was Town in a game and somehow me being called out for undermining scum Benmage was used by me to find OTHER scum? Makes little sense.

Secondly I’ve asked him to actually link to what he was referencing here. Instead of doing so he keeps saying rhetoric like “You deny my Supernatural reference?”.

Yes Ben – I deny you using a game where I was Town and you were Scum to somehow say I am scum here especially since you will NOT back up your vague allusion.

-You're misunderstanding my point. My point is you undermined me as scum, and see it as a scumtactic, and have stated thusly when being town.
My point was you give credence to the POINT that undermining is a scum tactic. Although I referenced it incorrectly. My memory aint perfect. The point is valid nonetheless. You were town in aSoS game, and as town You find it valid. Thats my point.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
I also asked Ben to back up his “I can read Fate like a book” with instances where Town Benmage properly read Town Fate. I’ve yet to see any provide links that post-date Stars Aligned 3.

Its a shitty loaded question. Trying to post date it from SAIII is idiotic. AND your use of SAIII is fucking shit, BECAUSE prior to Fate flipping, I reverted my read and found him town. BASED ON PLAY. My initial scum read that game came from a preconceived pregame motive I thought Fate would have. BUT HIS PLAY REVERTED THAT READ PRIOR TO HIS FLIP. So thanks a fucking million for helping prove my awesomeness.

And why doesn't Town Ben properly identify Scum Fate simply have the reverse effect?

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Lastly in Post 123 he tries to assert certain things are scum-tells that aren’t by any stretch of the imagination (such as fluffing [especially given the disconnect re: Fate] and ‘undermining’ by questioning him)

Questioning. Nothing wrong with that. Purposely adding in quips and only painting me negatively/seeing the negative side of arguments is undermining.

MoS renamed what I referenced as the "benmagetell" to confirmation bias in ScummiesWinvitational where you were doing the same thing to him. ONLY seeing the negative side of an action, without even entertaining the protown possible motive.

-the fluff posts (despite adding nothing) were a spam of several posts in a short amount of time to give the illusion that I was DODGIng your questions. I.E. supplanting illegitimate negativity.

Its very frustrating debating with MoI because it de-evolves into this walls vs walls.

Its why I made a nice clear list as to why MoI is scum. And those points are still valid.

This wall v wall of fact proving and e-peen stroking is a complete drain. MoI thrives for this shit. He talks big, posturing, says a lot of untrue negative shit my way, like I'm 'inconsistent', and 'illogical', or 'purposely avoiding' or 'making things up' but its all bullshit. Then I drain myself fixing his errors, and he nitpicking-ly moves on and attacks the next snidbit.

Ben wrote:Whats wrong with a clear succinct post as to why the people MoI thinks are scum, are scum. That would what? Help others see MoI's point of view... Doesn't MoI"town" want to help others find out who the scum are?

That isn't what he asked MOI to do. If all Pere had asked was "Hey MOI, who do you think is scum and why, you know... in case you are lynched." there would be no problem. But that isn't what he asked so don't try to come in here and distort the situation.

Ben wrote:Right? Thats a legitimate hypothetical question. Its preemptive last words. When at L-1, tis the time to give final reads. I don't understand the flak for the question.....v

For starters, the out of no where threat to hammer and for enders the basing MOI's reads on a made up votecount.

Why do you care about flak for a question you didn't ask?

Ben wrote:You give last reads before the hammer. Not after....

So? As I said before, that isn't what Pere asked.

Ben wrote:Incredibly unnecessarily difficult. No town motivation for being obtuse. Its easy to see what PV meant. (SO Affc was also mentioned, big deal...)

It completely invalidates the scum slip as a whole, fairly big deal I think. And who the fuck cares about motivation in this situation. I had been arguing with Yates over the exact same issue and Pere comes in and makes the same 'mistake' after I warned him not to. You'd be just as 'obtuse' to anyone who forced you to rehash the same idiotic discussion after you told them not to.

Ben wrote:And all this does is strengthen their point.

SO why be difficult. MoI was scum doing the same action in AFFC.

No, it doesn't. it weakens their point. Their 'point' wasn't meta, it was a scum slip. Just because a new point may exist doesn't make up for them pushing crap in the first place.

Ben wrote:I agree. I don't think the "slip" is a slip. But are you really accusing them of trying to manufacture the slip? And leave out such obvious details? Details yourself understood in 5 seconds? Come on.

Show me where I accused them of 'manufacturing the slip'. I'll wait...

My biggest concern isn't that they 'manufactured' it, it's that when faced with the realization the slip was false, they didn't care. All they wanted was to push MOI as scum, regardless of if the reasons they used were valid or not.

Ben wrote:Its alot easier, and I've seen it done a bunch for scum to attack the sound-ness of an argument of another rather than actually scumhunt themselves. Find flaws in the opponents argument and it can't be valid. Right Socrates.

It's easy for scum to mischaracterize a player instead of trying to find fault with their arguments as well. This sideways slander isn't going to get you very far with me Ben.

Ben wrote:So angle-ly... I can't tell if I like you or hate you.

Say you hate me, we'll get along better.

Ben wrote:Wait, maybe I'm reading this wrong.

I did attack MoI for his weak attacks on V2V, did I not?

Aye, but then you attacked (argued with) me for questioning him on it. Hence my confusion you see.

Goddamnit korlash....

Rat wrote:Take a look at the last couple vote counts. MoI was put at L-1 and several people requested he claim, and there was intent to hammer. Nothing happened. Then he dropped to like 2-3 people voting him. There is no way in hell MoI is getting lynched today. On the other hand, drmyshotgun pointed out numerous points regarding pizza, and I figured since MoI isnt going to get lynched, my vote would be better served on a wagon that had momentum.

Right... So you care only about adding momentum to a wagon and not actually finding and lynching scum. Got it.

And before you argue about me misrepresenting you here, you just said drmy pointed out 'numerous' points, not that they were any good. Neither did you mention Pizza being scum here at all.

@ your #3, where did MOI ever say you were voting him because of his being anti-town? Isn't this in turn a misrep of him?

Rat wrote:And I have never mentioned lynching Yates, then or before, so you making it out like I have been looking to lynch him before is a crock of shit.

Sorry, how did he do that? I don't see where he 'made it out' like you were looking to lynch him anywhere.

drmy wrote:So what is Pizza saying here? He hasn't given anything interesting to be pointed out throughout the game, and has posted around 6 (at this point) and wants Fate to go read the thread?
He also asks Moderator to prod Knot in hoping to be seen as Town requesting a prod.

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, the question he posed to Fate is a good one that makes sense. Whether it has any merit to it or not, I'll leave to fate. He did more than just 'ask Fate to read the thread'.
Your point two is possible, but just that. Did knot need a proding at that time? Did Pizza ever argue he was town for requesting it? He 'might' have been doing what you think, and that's as far as you can push it right now. Your poor phrasing is already giving me doubts about your case...

drmy wrote:Where is this ISO? Are you going to keep them in your treasure chest of all things cherished?
Or are you buying sometime to make up stuff in order to get out of the mess you are in.

... While I think you are misunderstanding him I don't really want to speak on his behalf... I don't believe he meant he ISOed MOI, I believe he saw MOI do an ISO and decided to do one(s) himself. (on Rat, Ben, and Fate is seems)

drmy wrote:Although he acknowledges the fact that he isn't really the one who should be saying these things, he says it anyway.
And after saying that Pappums doesn't deserve his spot on MoI wagon, he gets off himself before anyone can counter question him.

First part is blah, second part is pretty good though.

drmy wrote:His response to Fate seems very frustrated and not in an angry-town way.
He doesn't recognize my vote on him (just like Fate, but meh), but reacts certainly hotheadedly towards Fate's poking at him.
Says Fate is "sure using lots of metas" on his case on MoI. Well, what did he use on his case on MoI? Nothing. Zip. Nada. "Just Cause".
Of course it goes without saying he got off of his vote on the same post so that people won't question him. If questioned he can just answer: "I had a gut feeling. But now its gone."

What's an angry-town way?
If he doesn't recognize your vote, maybe his reaction isn't due to pressure. Maybe it's just due to Fate?
Repeat of the same good point, still only counts as one I'm afraid.
Now you're making up things he might have or would have done and implying he's scum for it. Not a good move on your part.

drmy wrote:This post shows him sure of his own lynch. And calls it a "mislynch". Well what he expects us to react like to this, I dunno but it sure doesn't look like scum-hunting Town.

... Now you're just reaching for something to say.

drmy wrote:Empahsis on Fate's arrogance. Perhaps in attempt to get people to ignore Fate?
Comes off as frustrated Scum who is frustrated because things were going smoothly while his lurking and now he has to come out and face some crowd.

Perhaps...
Comes off as frustrated, I'll give you that. Don't see what makes it 'scum' exactly.

For the record, I felt like all this was in response to my 297 ask for it. I am sincerely sorry if I answered stuff you wanted Pizza to respond to...

Ben wrote:Goddamnit korlash....

=3 Love you too...

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Lots of empty rhetoric (Post 32 is him just posting “he’s scum” with no support for why) and fluff in his iso (Post 44, Post 46, Post 68 as examples). Yet Benmage isn’t calling Fate scum for fluffing. That’s another reason I find Ben so scummy in that my ‘fluffing’ is evidence of scum behavior but Fate is rock solid Town despite his ISO being filled with it.

Its evidence of YOUR scum behavior.
1. I've never really known you to fluff
2. As I said before the rapidness of it created a false negative illusion regarding myself.

Fate is the epitomy of fluff.

Nothing is ever absolute in mafia (I don't know why I haven't sig'd it yet, but I must've said the only absolute in mafia is there is no absolutes a trillion times...anyways )

Back to the point. Every fluffer aint scum. Just like every lurker aint scum. But both are scum often. One must read between the lines.

I'm not gonna say I'm perfect at reading Fate. Pretty sure I even stated I'm still going to monitor him, but that I was getting strong town vibes, and have been of late on point for identifying his alignment. You somehow swing this into requiring me to list games post SAIII of me properly doing this....yeeeeeesh.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Also – look how many players Fate calls scum in said ISO. Hint – it’s one. He doesn’t bother to even poke at anyone else.

What does this mean?

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Then we have Post 178 where Fate uses a combination of AtE (I’ll flip Town) and fear-mongering “You have to say that you can’t read me if you shoot me” to try to extricate himself from the “MoI is scum” push he’s made all game. Not a Town oriented post given it pre-supposes I’m Town (and his reasoning for still supporting my lynch is ludicrously bad).

Lastly Fate is not even in the top 4 (that’s the top third) posters in the game. For someone who is the most prolific poster on site in terms of total posts this is pretty much the equivalent of active lurking for him. And his ISO supports that.

This, and more over the latter is good.

↑ PeregrineV wrote:And I asked MoI for his reads based on the fact if he were lynched. It's common for town to leave thoughts, etc. behind, even on day1, even on page whatever. Your argument that "it's in the future, how will he ever know" makes no sense.

And yes you did take liberties, and you are now saying that someone can't give reads based on things that might happen? "If I die tonight, here are my reads." That is hypothetical , and yet is done very often.

It's pro-town to give reads BEFORE things happened. I asked MoI for his HYPOTHETICAL death post, that he would give BEFORE he died.

You arguing against him doing any such thing like you did in post 225 makes me wonder why.

So, why?

Oh ho, I said the same thing. 2 points.

↑ PeregrineV wrote:Semantics. You got to love them.

Agreed, only I hate em.

↑ Pizzadudes7 wrote:Benmage: First, get a profile pic please. Now, in my opinion, he seems too defensive. When someone asked him about his statement about my vote, he got pissed and told them to stop fucking with his inquiries. Not really a good pro-town attitude. Finally, most cases that are brought up he tries to shoot down EXCEPT MoI's. Once I had made my vote, he later voted for MoI. Then asked ME why I voted MoI.

If he didn't think it was a good vote, why would he vote for MoI as well?

Very scummy.

1. No. I've never had a pic, and I don't plan on getting one.
2. Why would your vote ever affect my vote?
-Scum never bus?

Anddddd anyways, I wasn't attacking your vote on MoI at all. I was wondering if you had read to see if you were avoiding potential content, but the whole point became moot when MoI essentially ruined the inquiry, and I got lazy.

↑ Korlash wrote:3) What I did in 225 and what you asked MOI to do are not the same. If you had simply asked MOI "What are your reads" then they would be the same. But you fabricated a situation and specifically asked him for reads based on that situation.

What fabrication, he was debating hammering.....

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Benmage is still obv-scum and his dodging the thread instead of answering what was put out showing such. Funny you have time to make 24 posts in other threads before the “Oopps I’ve got to go to the Gym, I’ll try to come back later and stop being obv-scum”

Funny, I'm being flakked for ignoring games all over the site.... oh the irony.

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:

Pappums wrote: I doubt that MoI and Yates are on the same team. I think if one flips town, the other will flip scum. Benmage, on the other hand, I am confident is town. Fate and PV are lesser townreads. Korlash and V2V are entirely null atm.

Oh look, lining up lynches based on Town flips. But let’s examine this more closely –

Is this really THAT different than you're there's scum in X/Y and W/Z..................................

↑ Korlash wrote:

Ben wrote:Whats wrong with a clear succinct post as to why the people MoI thinks are scum, are scum. That would what? Help others see MoI's point of view... Doesn't MoI"town" want to help others find out who the scum are?

That isn't what he asked MOI to do. If all Pere had asked was "Hey MOI, who do you think is scum and why, you know... in case you are lynched." there would be no problem. But that isn't what he asked so don't try to come in here and distort the situation.

I"M NOT DISTORTING ANYTHING.

I said PV was saying under the premise of him hammering, which he said he was debating doing, and asked for last words from a player at L-1. A very legitimate method. I like the way he opened the hypo end of day VC to get MoI's opinion.

↑ Korlash wrote:

Ben wrote:Right? Thats a legitimate hypothetical question. Its preemptive last words. When at L-1, tis the time to give final reads. I don't understand the flak for the question.....v

For starters, the out of no where threat to hammer and for enders the basing MOI's reads on a made up votecount.

Why do you care about flak for a question you didn't ask?

-The out of nowhere point is a different entity. Doesn't involve the hypo hammer/last reads questions.
-Where did I say I care about the flak, I said I didn't understand it.

↑ Korlash wrote:

Ben wrote:You give last reads before the hammer. Not after....

So? As I said before, that isn't what Pere asked.

Thats what I interpreted.

↑ Korlash wrote:

Ben wrote:Incredibly unnecessarily difficult. No town motivation for being obtuse. Its easy to see what PV meant. (SO Affc was also mentioned, big deal...)

It completely invalidates the scum slip as a whole, fairly big deal I think. And who the fuck cares about motivation in this situation. I had been arguing with Yates over the exact same issue and Pere comes in and makes the same 'mistake' after I warned him not to. You'd be just as 'obtuse' to anyone who forced you to rehash the same idiotic discussion after you told them not to.

↑ Korlash wrote:

Ben wrote:I agree. I don't think the "slip" is a slip. But are you really accusing them of trying to manufacture the slip? And leave out such obvious details? Details yourself understood in 5 seconds? Come on.

Show me where I accused them of 'manufacturing the slip'. I'll wait...

My biggest concern isn't that they 'manufactured' it, it's that when faced with the realization the slip was false, they didn't care. All they wanted was to push MOI as scum, regardless of if the reasons they used were valid or not.

You " 'mistake' " which again gives the impression that you don't believe it a mistake, but believe it was purposely being construed this way. Just like you suggested Yates PURPOSELY left out the opener to mine and MoI's exchange. Which to me reads as you suggesting Yates manufacturing the slip.

↑ Korlash wrote:

Ben wrote:Its alot easier, and I've seen it done a bunch for scum to attack the sound-ness of an argument of another rather than actually scumhunt themselves. Find flaws in the opponents argument and it can't be valid. Right Socrates.

It's easy for scum to mischaracterize a player instead of trying to find fault with their arguments as well. This sideways slander isn't going to get you very far with me Ben.

I read this as you yielding my point. While complaining that I am mischaracterizing you. Which, if you yield my point valid... seems like a micharaterization of myself via you.

↑ Korlash wrote:

Ben wrote:Wait, maybe I'm reading this wrong.

I did attack MoI for his weak attacks on V2V, did I not?

Aye, but then you attacked (argued with) me for questioning him on it. Hence my confusion you see.

Gonna have to relook.... But I attack everyone, mostly independently on D1. Just like Pizza is confused with me questioning him, but it didn't involve his vote on MoI.

Shit this aint America. Everyones guilty until proven innocent.

(I'm drained, and getting buzzed.. not sure if this post makes sense fully.. I need to leave this thread)

Ben wrote:Its why I made a nice clear list as to why MoI is scum. And those points are still valid.

Ben wrote:Lets see:
1. Opens game with rvs vote. Not certain how strong he initially felt about it. Yes in Post 9 he called it a chuckle vote. But it is an old scumtell. And he seems to defend it in Post 6 with him talking about vijay posting all over the site.
--He's opened this way twice before as scum. Check.
---I see it as a way for him to attempt to interject himself into the game as protown by voting "for real" But like I said. Its an outdated tell. But a scumtell of MoI's.
2. He continues to uselessly undermine me mainly with subtle insults and negative connotations that (my point) HAVE no purpose.
-Fluff galore.
--Goading Fate with useless insults.
---Trying to create a rift between he and I because we have a tattered history.
-Posturing with his whole 1v1. lolololol you won't do it, you're scum.
3. He refuses to claim when at L-1. I've seen this a bagillion times by scum. Both refusing and stalling.
4. Deflection/AtE/Zangtell use. Scum/scum/DEFINITELY scum.

Kill this scumbag.

I figure I'll take a look at your case then and make sure I'm not missing anything.

1) Didn't you just say you didn't care about MOI's meta because he can manipulate it? Seems weird to ignore meta that could suggest he is town yet push meta that suggests he is scum...
2) I haven't played with him a super lot, does he not do this as town then?
3) Agreed. although given the fact his wagon fell through and he wasn't hammered... I don't know if I can actually see this flying as a valid point. (If he wasn't hammered for not claiming, then the 'case' on him can't have been at the point where he needed to claim. If it had, he'd be dead over his refusal.)
4) I've never been big on AtE since I find it super hard to legitimately define during play and impossible to suggest only scum do it, and while I also don't normally get behind 'deflection' unless I'm staring it straight in the face I'll give you that is probably a valid point. No idea what zangtell is so I'll pass that one up.

I suppose you have enough to justify your own vote, but I hardly think there's enough here to suggest his lynch. And I'm not trying to undermine your case here mate, I know this isn't everything. Just giving my opinion on the list...

I read through your 301 too... While I think you might have some valid arguments with him, it seems (to me) that the two of you just have a super long history you're hashing out right now with a back and forth of 'nuh uh!' 'uh huh!'. It makes it hard to separate which one of you sounds more convincing, so I'll have to resort to my standby. Fate was on your side, thus MOI wins my heart. Sorry...

Point 1, is a little hard to put to words. I'd say scum sometimes overthink how to enter a game.

Here I am accusing MoI of trying to purposely look town with an (outdated) scumtell.
-The meta aspect is minor, yet consistent of MoI perhaps trying to enter scum games, looking town.
2. I don't think he does it as town to this degree. Nonetheless still valid as scum.
3. He wiggled his way out. People second guess themselves. Like I said, he's no noob.
4. Those ones I rattled off was almost mocking what he rattled off against (pappums I believe). Its basically a point that one can spin things to prove their point. Like the old saying, one can use the bible to argue any position.
- AtE I agree everyone does it.
-Zangtell, the short version is scum will call an argument Town v Town. MoI's used this accusation before as scum. That was my point.

Yeah, I don't enjoy arguing with MoI. Its draining. He walls like this. I had the luxury of recently (more or less) catching him as scum, and playing with him as scum. So I think I've got a better idea of his scum play. This is it. Not much more I can say on the issue... I know 'gut' aint convincing alone.

-I shall blame fate endgame than.

Ben wrote:I said PV was saying under the premise of him hammering, which he said he was debating doing, and asked for last words from a player at L-1. A very legitimate method. I like the way he opened the hypo end of day VC to get MoI's opinion.

Well then we're at odds... I don't like the way he opened with the VC...
...
Those are nice shoes...

Ben wrote:-The out of nowhere point is a different entity. Doesn't involve the hypo hammer/last reads questions.
-Where did I say I care about the flak, I said I didn't understand it.

- I suppose it doesn't but it's a good point. What do you think about his out of no-where threat to hammer? (wait, fuck. You wanted him hammered so you can't give me an unbiased opinion)
- I assumed attempting to understand it was a sign of caring...

Ben wrote:You " 'mistake' " which again gives the impression that you don't believe it a mistake, but believe it was purposely being construed this way. Just like you suggested Yates PURPOSELY left out the opener to mine and MoI's exchange. Which to me reads as you suggesting Yates manufacturing the slip.

A valid point, but not entirely true. I didn't want to call what he did a mistake because I felt it undervalued the severity of his actions and weakens my case through it's usage. I did not intend to suggest it was outright fabricated willingly. Yates leaving out the stuff deals with his simply pushing an attack regardless of the validity of it.

I can see how you can come to the conclusion I suggested this, but it isn't the case.

Ben wrote:I read this as you yielding my point. While complaining that I am mischaracterizing you. Which, if you yield my point valid... seems like a micharaterization of myself via you.

You could call it yielding if you want, I don't feel like getting into this specific argument. It would be pointless. You can lob your subterfuge at my playstyle all you want, it's not going to work.

Ben wrote:Gonna have to relook.... But I attack everyone, mostly independently on D1. Just like Pizza is confused with me questioning him, but it didn't involve his vote on MoI.

Shit this aint America. Everyones guilty until proven innocent.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with this style. Hell, I do the same thing. (although I wouldn't try to compare the two of us) But when you attack MOI for attacking V2V then go to the length you did arguing me when I 'essentially' do the same thing... Seems odd to me.

And of course this isn't America... It's Britain... Everyone is guilty if they're Welsh... Or from Liverpool... Or root for Manchester United...

Korlash, just tell me you're town...it'll make life easier.

Ben wrote:Yeah, I don't enjoy arguing with MoI. Its draining. He walls like this. I had the luxury of recently (more or less) catching him as scum, and playing with him as scum. So I think I've got a better idea of his scum play. This is it. Not much more I can say on the issue... I know 'gut' aint convincing alone.

If it means anything I am disappointed he wasn't lynched. Simply because the situation we were in called for it. And while I can certainly see your case (honestly, I'm still iffy on MOI myself and your rebuttal for your points certainly helped) I currently see a better one on Rat and Pere along with a likely mislynch wagon on Pizza taking form.

How about a compromise. Let's lynch Rat today... Deal?

Ben wrote:Korlash, just tell me you're town...it'll make life easier.

Will it? Damn, what am I doing wasting my time here then, I'm off to the cancer ward! *leaps out the window*

I try to think of something funny to say and my mind immediately goes to kids with cancer... I am a sick individual, luckily I fell to my death. Problem solved! =D

↑ pappums rat wrote:If you do turn out to be town, which I doubt, I think the chances of Yates being scum are increased by a great deal.

I am comfortable with this and would actually EXPECT this sort of reaction if MoI were to flip Town. This goes back to what I said earlier about the L-1 guy better be confident in his lynch choice b/c a Town flip could reflect very badly on him.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

Hey guys. You know that thing where you strip quote the person your talking to and respond in huge walls that are hard to read? Well it's annoying.

Anyway.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vijay

for coasting on the MoI wagon (notice how it goes to L-1 while he essentially ignores the real issues surrounding MoI) and bailing off for terrible, terrible reasoning.

I'm gonna take a break from the thread and see what a fresh set of eyes in the morning will do, since currently I'm having a real hard time taking a stance on any of the lead wagons. So G'night.

^ awks. Why would I jump off MoI as scum? Also, I agree. Those wall things suck.

↑ vijay2vasandani wrote:@ shotgun: can we lynch Yates first?

@ Fate: I asked this just before. Did you say Yates seemed townish? Can you explain please?

Its just the gut feeling I get from reading his exchange with Korlash. But he's also done some scummy things, so I'm not ready to call him town full on

I'm not the least bit surprised Pizza hasn't posted in this thread during all this bullshit sidetracking

↑ Fate wrote:

↑ vijay2vasandani wrote:@ shotgun: can we lynch Yates first?

@ Fate: I asked this just before. Did you say Yates seemed townish? Can you explain please?

Its just the gut feeling I get from reading his exchange with Korlash. But he's also done some scummy things, so I'm not ready to call him town full on

Oh dear. Who said Fate was scum? You may just be right x.x

lolk

The following post is a direct exchange with Benmage. If you are one of those people offended by Wall posts don’t read it …

You have been warned.

--

Benmage wrote: TL/DR Its very frustrating debating with MoI because it de-evolves into this walls vs walls.

Its why I made a nice clear list as to why MoI is scum. And those points are still valid.

This wall v wall of fact proving and e-peen stroking is a complete drain. MoI thrives for this shit. He talks big, posturing, says a lot of untrue negative shit my way, like I'm 'inconsistent', and 'illogical', or 'purposely avoiding' or 'making things up' but its all bullshit. Then I drain myself fixing his errors, and he nitpicking-ly moves on and attacks the next snidbit.

He's scum, and should've been hammered on pg 6.

Of course I make pushing my mislynch difficult. Why shouldn’t I? There is a reason I have my Title – I’m such a pain in the ass to deal with when I am Town that scum absolutely kill me at first opportunity.

Your pointless rhetoric about me being scum who should have been hammered is just that – pointeless rhetoric. Let me respond in kind

Benmage wrote: Shit this aint America. Everyones guilty until proven innocent.

Oh, but me scum-hunting you is under-mining? Lulz.

Benmage wrote: -Zangtell, the short version is scum will call an argument Town v Town. MoI's used this accusation before as scum. That was my point.

More faulty meta. I’ve also used it as Town. Here’s some links so you can stop pretending it is only something I use as scum …

Small:TownStardust Mafia – the game where I was Town and the origination of the tell.

Dr. Who Mafia – I make the observation in post 55. I was Town.

Secret Society Mafia- Use it in post 139 and post 177. I was Town.

Benmage wrote:ZOMG EVERYTHING ISNT 100% CONSISTENT. Cause good players never make mistakes, or forget past things....Zzzzzzz Bullshit. You're good (which is a really arbitrary word anyways, but I digress) yes. Infallible....zzzz
Moving on …

This is rhetoric handwaving. Where did I say “Benmage isn’t 100% consistent”? Please quote it because this is just you trying to put words into my mouth as a means to undermine the very valid point that you are blatantly inconsistent when it comes to the application of what you consider scum-tells.

Benmage wrote: You give last reads before the hammer. Not after....

-His alluding to being able to delay, is likely some scum lie.

See this is incorrect. You give last reads only when someone has said “I’m going to hammer you regardless of your claim”. No-one said anything close to that. Peregrine didn’t even commit to actually saying he would vote me. He said he was ‘considering’ it. You are trying to perpetuate the incorrect stance that "The second someone gets to L-1 they claim" somehow means not immediately claiming at L-1 is a scum-tell. It's not.

The second part is just rhetoric crap. You once again make a broad, sweeping statement without backing it up.

Now let’s discuss your Cognitive Dissonance regarding meta –

Benmage wrote: SO why be difficult. MoI was scum doing the same action in AFFC.

You keep bringing up this point (that I opened AFFC with a “Last to Confirm” RVS vote) as if two instances of something is meta evidence I am scum. Evidence that I provide you with another example of BTW. What was my scum motivation for doing that (bringing you Tit for Tat) when you clearly are too lazy to actually do the legwork yourself.

Yet when presented with similar strong meta evidence that shows I only refuse to claim as Town you dismiss it out of hand. Your exact words were thus –

I just illustrated that scum refuse to claim. That's always my point. You trying to manipulate your own Meta does nothing for me.

It’s at best Confirmation Bias – you are automatically dismissing my evidence because in this case “I’m manipulating my Meta”.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “He doesn’t have the ability to enter the game by manipulating his meta as scum” and then turn around and say “Ok, you are totally manipulating your meta” if you are honestly scum-hunting.

Benmage wrote:Did you not comprehend the context of my statement. Of course the idea of self-voting would be ludicrious. You try to dismiss my point in post 152 with this post: post 158. You're using your meta to suggest that AS SCUM you would be acting like XXX. (XXX being creating fakeclaims like the cop claim in AFFC) You also use your previous meta to further defend your position by saying you refuse to claim in Oobas game, and Seinfelds game.

(LIKE I remember every facet of OObasa game.

(Which doesn't even matter here))

1. If self-voting would be ludicrous why include it other than as undermining garbage which you claim is a scummy move?
2. See now you begin backing away from your “MoI is scum for opening like he did as scum in AFFC” argument. You opened the door to “MoI is scum via meta”. You don’t get to then dismiss my using meta as defense.
3. The bolded I will be getting to in a bit later but it bears noting here.

On the subject of whether Benmage ‘knows’ my scum-game very well as stated here

Ben you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Your arguments whipsaw back and forth between “Yes, I know MoIscum and I can identify his scum-game” to “No games are the same”. Examples include the above bolded and –

Benmage wrote: I was mocking you suggesting your town behavior must be this, and your scum behavior must be that. To think that ones play is always identical is ludicrious.

Well of course play isn’t always identical. That’s an empty point. You are suggesting that you can easily identify my scum games.

Benmage wrote: Its evidence of YOUR scum behavior.
1. I've never really known you to fluff
2. As I said before the rapidness of it created a false negative illusion regarding myself.

1. So you know my scum-game well but have never known me to fluff? That’s actually an argument against your premise that me fluffing is scum-driven.
2. Bullshit. You’ve completely dodged the point that on Monday you made 24 game posts all over site but couldn’t manage to make a post here.

Benmage wrote: Refuses..... ZZZZ, can anyone link me refusing to do this for MoI. PUHLEASE. (hint hint, I never did, just more dung from MoI to paint me negatively)

But MoI, you are quite right. It wasn’t Supernatural Mafia. It was a Storm of Swords:

I don’t have to link you to it. You brought up Supernatural and I said that you had no valid point. Your response was “Are you denying my Supernatural reference?”

Of course I was denying it. It never happened a fact you now actually admit was a ‘mis-remembering”. That’s why this line of pursuit by you is so scummy. You make a reference to a game as evidence that supports your stance that I am scummy yet don’t actually reference it. I call you on it. How is that not a Town reaction?

The constant use of ZZZ as if my points are so boring is just ‘Appealing to Repitition”. No Town motive for it. It’s just mudslinging on your part.

Benmage wrote:-You're misunderstanding my point. My point is you undermined me as scum, and see it as a scumtactic, and have stated thusly when being town.
My point was you give credence to the POINT that undermining is a scum tactic. Although I referenced it incorrectly. My memory aint perfect. The point is valid nonetheless.

You were town in aSoS game, and as town You find it valid. Thats my point.

And here’s the bomb-shell that tells me you aren’t acutally scum-hunting –

That’s right … I was scum. Here’s a link for everyone to see for themselves. Looking at those dead and gone we find the following –

I flipped Brynden Tully, Stark Aligned Tracker. Starks were the scum. Note the Stark Godfather.

So you are actually proving my point – as Scum I used that bullshit argument against Grey because it’s a crappy argument that sounds good on paper but isn’t valid in the least.

Yet here you are scummily trying to pass it off as evidence of my ‘scum behavior’ here when in fact my support of the ‘Undermining argument’ came from when I was scum.

Benmage wrote: Its a shitty loaded question. One failed read doesn't mean shit. Trying to post date it from SAIII is idiotic. AND your use of SAIII is fucking shit, BECAUSE prior to Fate flipping, I reverted my read and found him town. BASED ON PLAY. My initial scum read that game came from a preconceived pregame motive I thought Fate would have. BUT HIS PLAY REVERTED THAT READ PRIOR TO HIS FLIP. So thanks a fucking million for helping prove my awesomeness.

And why doesn't Town Ben properly identify Scum Fate simply have the reverse effect?

It’s not a scummy loaded question. You again have failed to deliver a single case of Town Benmage properly reading Fate Town. In fact this ‘outrage’ is simply an effort to disguise that you have yet to provide any games at all to support your stance that you have gotten very good at reading Fate.

As for Stars Aligned 3 – you are trying to say you reverted your read to Town on him there. But that was after a long protracted period where you vitrolically called him scum. Here is the link to the game ISOs of Benmage and Fate for those interested. Clearly your well refined ‘I can read Fate well’ skills were not developed by the this game as he was Town and you stalked him N0 to murder him N1 basically on a grudge.

This is also why I think the way you and Fate here have solid Town reads on each other is suspect. Hell in the Mini Theme sign-ups Fate himself said you two had an unfinished rivalry to deal with.

Ben – please link me to the post where you called Fate Town in Stars Aligned III. I don’t see it in your ISO.

In summary feel free to provide Town Benmage games where he properly reads Scum-Fate also. Since your premise is that you can read Fate easily as Town here I asked for other instances of you doing that.

Yes – once again I’m asking you to show your support for your stance.

Benmage wrote:I'm not gonna say I'm perfect at reading Fate. Pretty sure I even stated I'm still going to monitor him, but that I was getting strong town vibes, and have been of late on point for identifying his alignment. You somehow swing this into requiring me to list games post SAIII of me properly doing this....yeeeeeesh.

Back-tracking much? When you make statements about how good you are at reading Fate I’m asking you to support it with games that demonstrate thus. It’s called scum-hunting Benmage – I think you are scum and am trying to get a read on your possible partners (including Fate) by your posts in the thread.

Benmage wrote: I agree. I don't think the "slip" is a slip. But are you really accusing them of trying to manufacture the slip? And leave out such obvious details? Details yourself understood in 5 seconds? Come on.

So what exactly was Yates’s motivation for leaving out obvious details and continuing to run with it after said details were clearly pointed out to him?

Benmage wrote:I did attack MoI for his weak attacks on V2V, did I not?

Not that your ISO reveals. Here is the closest things you have to comment on my early push on V2V for his reaction to being called scum and OMGUSing me -

Benmage at 50 wrote: There was some 20 posts before his, but it looked like people were already beginning discussion and moving from the rvs. (Obviously namely between you and Vijay)]

This isn’t criticism – you are stating that actual discussion was happening between Vijay and myself.

Benmage at 59 wrote: The question is loaded because the obvious answer is that was the sole example. Otherwise he would've listed the additional info to support his claim. Der 1. Moreover if you think about it logically. How many games does he/one play. How many times are any two people in the same game (****Korlash you're from 07, and I'm from 08... How many games have we been in together?)...... Then how many games that they're both in will Vijay also be scum in. Then in how many games that they're together in and Vijay is scum will Vijay react the same way....... Come fucking off it. I literally shook my head is dismay and smirked when I saw you ask him for additional sources.

the answer "yes 5 billion examples" never would've occurred, dont be dumb with me. Him reinforcing it with further sources WOULDNT have given you any upperhand, duh...that strengthens his point. But again, Basic logicsuggested this never was going to be the case.

Him answering, obviously no diminishes the strength of his point..... even if only subtly.

Again. It's as a foregone conclusion. Why would he, calling out Vijay as scum, withhold further damning information on him. And again, mathematically seeing repeat meta like this between two players is idiotically farfetched.

But lets breakdown basic meta. Scum-tell omgus, overreacting and attacking the one who attacks you. Check on the basic level. Without the past precedents a general understanding would recognize MoI's position as valid.

-You yield MoI's reasoning for voting for his beliefs is valid. But what do you think?

Are you going to sell that as criticism of my vote on Vijay that I called real?

In fact your ‘case’ at Post 123 says nothing at all about my calling calling him out for his reactions and OMGUS vote in any way that indicates you thought it was scummy.

Benmage wrote:Is this really THAT different than you're there's scum in X/Y and W/Z..................................

[/quote]

Yes it is absolutely different. Are you seriously asking this questions?

Pappums says “Yates and MoI can’t be on the same team, if one flips Town the other MUST be scum”. It’s a false dichotomy. Why can’t we both be Town other than his just stating “MoI is scum”?

I on the other hand am saying that my reads indicate that I think there is scum to be found in the following groups of players. Not how I am further actually scum-hunting to determine alignment. Pappums is just laying down a statement as fact.

@vijay: There's a few different reasons why that could have happened. I'm not sure why exactly you might have done so; it could have been that your MoI's buddy, that you didn't want to be caught on a townie lynch, that you didn't think anyone was actually going to jump on to hammer MoI. The point is I don't know "why". I do know that I see scum motivation from it. Unless you can explain the following three point I will probably keep my vote on you.

a) Why you were on MoI for so long ignoring the meat of the case against him?

b₁) Why did you feel it neccessary to jump to Yates at that time?

b₂) Why do you think the reasoning you gave in 220 is stronger than the points raised against MoI?

Shotgun wrote:He was radiating scum reactions from our votes.
Perhaps you guys would see him as scum when he reacts further.

Well certainly Town, especially VI Town, has never reacted bad to votes before.

--

Korlash wrote: If it means anything I am disappointed he wasn't lynched. Simply because the situation we were in called for it. And while I can certainly see your case (honestly, I'm still iffy on MOI myself and your rebuttal for your points certainly helped) I currently see a better one on Rat and Pere along with a likely mislynch wagon on Pizza taking form.

Why didn’t you hammer me then if you are ‘disappointed’ I wasn’t lynched? You had plenty of chance to do so.

--

Pappums wrote:Take a look at the last couple vote counts. MoI was put at L-1 and several people requested he claim, and there was intent to hammer. Nothing happened. Then he dropped to like 2-3 people voting him. There is no way in hell MoI is getting lynched today. On the other hand, drmyshotgun pointed out numerous points regarding pizza, and I figured since MoI isnt going to get lynched, my vote would be better served on a wagon that had momentum.

And it’s the second example of you jumping on a wagon with the sole-excuse of “I like Player X’s case” as your reasoning. You did it first with Benmage’s case when you jumped on my wagon. That’s scummy self-protection.

Pappums wrote:Regarding your @ pappums: Dont put words in my mouth and misrep me. I never said there were associative tells between you two. Neither of you have flipped yet, so I am not trying to make connections between you.

Way to dodge the point – you seem to try to avoid having scum-reads that make sense under the guise of “No-one has flipped”. You have called both Pizza and I scum. Do you think we make sense as scum together? If not which of us is more likely scum?

Pappums wrote:1. You have defended well, there is no doubt about it. You have had an answer for pretty much everything that has been put to you, and I would not expect anything less from a player of your caliber. The point I made about not addressing everything is that you havent commented on the point I made in #2:
2. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4004416 You didnt say anything about the game in question, you just brushed it off with your own single game point and called my post fluff.

What should I have commented on about that game? Here are your poinst –

1. That I was scum in a game? Ok.
2. That I argued with ReaperCharlie? How is this indicative of scum behavior? The point of Mafia is to find scum and argue to get them lynched. You carefully yourself dodged the point I made about Jason’s TV Mafia where I attacked your slot in the same fashion I attacked ReaperCharlie (calling each of you scum and trying to get you lynched) and I was Town. Why am I scummy for not acknowledging a point when you did the exact same thing?

Pappums wrote: 3. LOL keep misrepping me MoI, you just dig your grave deeper and deeper. I was pointing out that not claiming is antitown and you are not an antitown player, I never said I voted you because of it. If you somehow are town, you are suffering from some serious confirmation bias.

1. ‘Appeal to Fear’ noted. Town who thinks they are talking to scum don’t say things like “You are digging your grave” in a manner that suggests I should stop scum-hunting you.
2. Please list the full reasons why you voted me in your own words. Don’t direct me to a post by someone else.

Pappums wrote:Oh wow, the old "lining up lynches" rhetoric.

Lining up lynches isn’t rhetoric. It’s exactly what you are doing and Town has no reason to do so. You've given no reason why Yates is the only person likely scum on my wagon. You just dropped down a "Hey, if either of these players flips Town the other must be scum".

Re: Pizza - Not a bad lynch for the sheer fact he's going to be useless regardless. (he had two posts as a VT in JK9++) His first vote does tickle me in the wrong places (it feels like he's trying to get on a wagon before it starts and pass it off as a rv.) But the rest of his play doesn't really show any alignment signals to me.

--

@Pappums: When did Korlash become null for you? Why?

(holding off my opinions of this wagon until he answers.)