Page 13 of 47

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:03 am
by SafetyDance
Cub Daigoro wrote:
goodmorning wrote:
Cheery Dog wrote:
goodmorning wrote:It's mostly meta, but it's also that the votehopping he's done just doesn't look scummy in the slightest to me.

D you know for sure he doesn't votehop as scum, or is it the reasoning along with the jumps that make you think that way?

Well, from what I've seen he doesn't as Scum, but it's more the reasoning.

Can you explain to me why reasoning that someone would only FoS if they were scum afraid of lynching their buddy looks like townie reasoning?

Can you explain the townie reasoning behind his vote on me in , his apparent retraction in , and his apparent retraction of his retraction after I voted him?

Can you explain your tunnelling and obsession? I suggest you ISO my posts and try to read them all instead of being so selective. Comprehension optional I guess.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:19 am
by Cub Daigoro
SafetyDance wrote:Can you explain your tunnelling and obsession?

I think you're scum, and I want you lynched.

SafetyDance wrote:I suggest you ISO my posts and try to read them all instead of being so selective.

Your ISO is scummy. I selected the parts that don't appear to add up.

SafetyDance wrote:Comprehension optional I guess.

Image

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:26 am
by Cub Daigoro
SafetyDance wrote:My vote for you was when? Post #54 wasn't it? .... Anything after that is irrelevant

The fact that you seemed to retract it in is irrelevant???

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:33 am
by goodmorning
@Cub: It's called changing your mind? I don't honestly know what you're seeing because it's just not there. If you expect a perfect case page 2, you're gonna have a bad time.

To clarify: the reasoning Safety applies looks like early D1 Town logic to me.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:36 am
by Cub Daigoro
goodmorning wrote:@Cub: It's called changing your mind? I don't honestly know what you're seeing because it's just not there. If you expect a perfect case page 2, you're gonna have a bad time.

That's fine, but he appears to have returned to his page 2 case since I voted him.

See my point now?

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:44 am
by ac1983fan
Belisarius wrote:
ac1983fan wrote:

Post 268 makes SafetyDance look rather scum-like.


What? 268 is Cub's post, not Safety's. How can you infer Safety's alignment from Cub's post?

The argument CD made about SD; CD pulled out some good points/observations
Human Destroyer wrote:
ac1983fan wrote:
Human Destroyer wrote:An actual answer would be appreciated far more than a silly threat.

It was a joke, as I was assuming your post was a joke. Are you indicating you were being serious, or this just a continuation of the joke?


I was being completely serious.

well this may be a problem but I'll just assume you have some ~quirky personality~ that allows you to openly and seriously sheep people without it being scummy
SafetyDance wrote:

ac1983fan wrote:
SafetyDance wrote:
DayVigging =/= Voting. I don't like FOS, I think it was bad, I wanted to put pressure on (and it got a reaction) for not voting, I did the only thing in my power to do so.

Obviously a single vote doesn't cause a lynch, but there is still nothing wrong with not voting until you have a high certainty level. Sure, pressure votes are fine but conservative voting is not a scumtell.

Did you read the first part? FOS =/= conservative voting.
I
think its a rather scummy thing to do, right HD?

Well, fos's would be a part of a conservative voter's repertoire. but yeah fos's are also a legitimate technique and not a scumtell, and I don't know where you got the impression that they weren't (unless, of course, the site's meta has changed in the last year). If you find someone suspicious but not sufficiently enough to vote them or you eyes are elsewhere you fos.
SafetyDance wrote:
ac1983fan wrote:
Human Destroyer wrote:An actual answer would be appreciated far more than a silly threat.

It was a joke, as I was assuming your post was a joke. Are you indicating you were being serious, or this just a continuation of the joke?

Remind me not to call you when I next need a comedian.

u wanna die punk

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:53 am
by goodmorning
@ac: Some people find FoS scummy. It's more a personal thing than a site meta thing, we all have personal tells.

@Cub: Has he? I don't see him voting you.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:58 am
by Cub Daigoro
goodmorning wrote:@ac: Some people find FoS scummy. It's more a personal thing than a site meta thing, we all have personal tells.

In the post SD links to, he doesn't call FoS scummy, nor does he vote for HD. He simply says:
SafetyDance wrote:FoS are weak crap too btw. Achieve nothing.


goodmorning wrote:@Cub: Has he? I don't see him voting you.

But you see him continue to reiterate the case, don't you? You saw him answer yes when I asked him in the context of said case if he still thought I was scummy, didn't you?

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:17 am
by Cub Daigoro
ac1983fan wrote:well this may be a problem but I'll just assume you have some ~quirky personality~ that allows you to openly and seriously sheep people without it being scummy

He probably learned this replacement style from Thor is my guess.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:52 am
by goodmorning
Thinking you are scummy does not have to mean that he thinks you are
a. Scum or
b. a good lynch for today or
c. even a good vote

Maybe he does, I can't speak for him. I'm not really seeing reiterations, more just "hey I have a scumread on you, now I'm going to go pursue a scummier candidate"

And for the record, I have a slight Townread on you. I'd like to head off any misrepping by anyone at the pass.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:54 am
by Belisarius
ac1983fan wrote:
Well, fos's would be a part of a conservative voter's repertoire. but yeah fos's are also a legitimate technique and not a scumtell, and I don't know where you got the impression that they weren't


It's not FoSsing in isolation, but FoSsing without a vote in play that causes
me
to look askance, unless the player in question is already at L-1. You have to look at the whole picture, including the fact that PPP
immediately
explained why he was FoSsing instead of voting.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:57 am
by Cub Daigoro
goodmorning wrote:I'm not really seeing reiterations

:neutral:

, , , , ,

247 directly reiterates the case:
SafetyDance wrote:On Cub, he is/was using the reasoning that because his RVS vote might be on scum then that is a good reason to leave it there now. I don't find that acceptable and anyone who would say anything like that is likely scummy for either knowing NS is scum and bussing him or scummy because he's not even trying to scumhunt and thinks a RVS vote can be used without reason for a valid on.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:06 am
by goodmorning
Damned walls.

After the bit you quoted he used past tense, indicating that that was his reasoning at post 54 but not necessarily now.
I don't think 127 or 253 is a reiteration.
261 and 264 taken together are kind of there, but ehhhh not really.
In 299 he is saying that anything subsequent to his vote in 54 is irrelevant to that vote, and as he's not making a case on you I fail to see why you're making a fuss about it.
Yes, semantics, but valid semantics for once, I think.

Are you usually this reactionary as Town? Time for some meta, I think.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:13 am
by Cub Daigoro
So... What is he calling me scummy for in 264?

I'm making a "fuss" because I think it's scummy.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:14 am
by goodmorning
Asked and answered, .

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:22 am
by Cub Daigoro
SD, is GM right? Without referencing your page 2 vote, why am I scummy?

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:59 am
by implosion
Alright. Devoting the next hour (before class) to this game, and hopefully some more later today. And posting this as self-motivation to not get sidetracked.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:21 am
by implosion
This is what I have from reading up through page 6, basically. But it's a lot. So I'm going to break this into several posts.
Spoiler: Regarding SafetyDance
SafetyDance is town.

First off, his tone: he's very confident in certain things in a way that I think is indicative of town. Notably, 54, 55, 63, 124, 126, 128, and many others (I can list more if asked but really shouldn't need to) all have a tone of voice that seems... i'd say it's accusatory in the right ways. His accusations in those posts feel genuine, and i really like his response to popc in 124. This whole section:
It matter how many times you increase the size. You suggested NS was looking scummy but said you hadn't bothered to read the thread yet. Clearly you have been reading otherwise you wouldn't have taken the time to write a couple of paragraphs about him and how he may be scummy so clearly you have been paying attention enough to respond to my post. So no, I don't find the 'need to catch up' excuse as valid, when the evidence points to the contrary.

Did you just react to being voted like someone's shoved a hot iron poker up your ass? Yes you did. :roll:

I don't know you so I don't know if counting is your strong suit or if you have troubles with it but in this game, we're given ONE Vote. That's means having two votes, isn't an option.

Do you think I've suddenly grown less suspicious of NS now? Or don't want him him answering the question I asked of him?

Is exactly how I would expect town with his attitude to react to popc's post. He makes good points, and makes them with the same kind of consistent tone that his other posts have. And before someone says "lol, implosion has a gut read on safetydance," no, I don't. I have a read based on looking at what he's done, considering it from different perspectives, and deciding that town is more likely than scum. I don't see 124 (the response to popc) as coming from scum. I don't think he would have been able to make the points as well, I don't think he would be able to pull off the same consistent tone of voice, and the specific arguments that he made are exactly what I think he would come up with as town.


Spoiler: pieceofpecanpie
I think popc might be scum based on page 6 (which is all i've read as of this writing but etc). Specifically, he's playing very,
very
reactively rather than proactively. SafetyDance is doing things, and popc is "copying" them, which may indicate a vague desire to want to look like others (i.e. scum). In particular, interactions like post 132/133 make me think popc scum, safety town.

I think his overreaction is also a legitimate reason to fos him, actually. But we'll see as I read more.


Spoiler: zaicon's questions toward me
To see how Nobody Special responds and if there's a good reason for it?

Well yes, this is obviously possible, but my point is that that particular kind of question looks like it accomplishes much more than it actually does.
This is one possible interpretation... why do you think this is the correct one, as opposed to anything else (such as Cub actually trying to find out NS's reason for not having a vote yet)?

This goes back to the fact that the question doesn't accomplish as much as it looks like it does. Essentially, the argument is that Cub, if he were genuinely looking for scum, would ask more useful questions (questions that actually do accomplish things) rather than just ask questions like "why no vote?" In a way, the other problem is that "why no vote" is a very easy 'gotcha' question - it's something that pushes focus on to someone else more than it actually gets useful information, imo.
I disagree. He answered NS's question by stating the he would rather have a reason with the vote. I don't see why that (or why his passive vs active response) is scummy or why that means he is whining.

This one is a more subtle argument, and if you disagree with it then you disagree with it and I can't really argue.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:28 am
by implosion
Sorry if I severely multipost. I'm only going to be here for a little over a half hour more (it's 12:28 as i write this sentence) so it shouldn't be too bad~

pieceofpecanpie wrote:@implosion Your read on Safety? It was Safety who asserted I was NS' scumbuddy, what do you think of that and why shouldn't we be partner hunting now? I'm also wondering what you think of CheeryDog.

I think safety is town (right now). See the above post. And actually, I'm feeling a little lazy, so I'm just going to quote myself from a previous game:

implosion wrote:Bad. Connection hunting is
never
the way to go day one, for a few reasons...
1) you'll never be able to call the scumteam day one. Vi's guide sums this up nicely. Essentially, a connection tell inherently involves 2 peoples' alignments. If you're going to try to guess the scumteam right now, your odds are one in 72. If you're just going to try to guess one scum member, your odds are 2/9. You shouldn't assume one person's alignment in trying to find another's
on day one.
After day one, there are flips to work with, but unless there's a scumflip, they may or may not be useful. Scumflips are almost always useful in connection hunting. If you're going to assume someone's alignment in trying to find out someone else's alignment, then the connection read is only valid if your logic for that read happens to be right
and
you're right about the person whose alignment you're assuming. Normal individual tells are much easier to work with day one.
2) having connections doesn't make someone scum. Good example from the last newbie game I was in. The person making this post is town. Pay attention to the list they have of information gained from lynches. The two people at the bottom of that list were scum. What does this tell us? It tells us that connections can actually be indicative of town, because scum will try to avoid making connections that could either incriminate or help to clear someone after their death. Sure, it isn't a completely identical situation, but the point remains that just because someone has connections, it doesn't make them scum.

(I was town). Obviously the math's a bit different, but the points still apply. Partner hunting on day one is, I'd say, nearly categorically unproductive. The only situation I can think of where it'd be acceptable is if someone makes a bona fide scumslip, and I've only ever seen one scumslip that would qualify as that, and no one ever even caught it (it was made by my scumbuddy in an old game).

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:29 am
by Human Destroyer
Cub Daigoro wrote:
ac1983fan wrote:well this may be a problem but I'll just assume you have some ~quirky personality~ that allows you to openly and seriously sheep people without it being scummy

He probably learned this replacement style from Thor is my guess.


Shh, stahp blowin' mah cover

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:55 am
by implosion
Edosurist wrote:
You're one to talk. Remember your second post in Mini 1394? It was your overreaction to MM suggesting that you had forehand knowledge of my alignment.

but... but... that was made by me, and i was town :(.

In seriousness: that actually is my justification. I, as a person, enjoy overanalyzing things. It isn't even always that productive; I just enjoy doing it. That vote on MM (which, i ought to point out for my own edification, was right) was a product of me trying to glean as much information as I could out of what had been done. There's also an element of sarcasm in my overanalyzing at times. Sarcasm and overreaction are different things. A reaction to something with an excessive amount of sarcasm says things about the personality of the person reacting. An overreaction without sarcasm (which, I think, is the category that popc's reaction falls under) says things about the alignment of the person reacting.

Edos wrote:This is wrong. From your way of thought, NS is scum. Then you suggest that pecan is scum because he was too cautious to actually vote NS, his partner.
That assertion is a stretch, and you unvoted who you believe is scum in both scenarios to do it.

Decent point. Safety is still town, though.
Edos wrote:I'd also say that you appear to have overreacted, but in a different way.
Within the course of 5 hours, you made 7 posts. 7 fairly long ones, mind you.
It's mainly directed at pecanpie, but it also has things like this:

Worse point. Calling that an overreaction is like calling the evacuation of a city an overreaction to a hurricane that's about to hit that city. Sure, it's a big reaction, but it's
called for.
When I say a big reaction, I mean that Safety was reacting to several things - like he said, he had to, because there were several things to react to. He did not, however, overreact to any thing in particular. pieceofpecanpie, on the other hand, very definitely DID overreact to one very specific thing.


Note to self: ac and probably apozzle are town for page 7.

Frankly, I'd say criticism of my cub case as grasping at straws is absolutely justified, and quite possibly right (I'm going to spend some time reevaluating cub too).

ac wrote:implosion: Seems like you're throwing around suspicion at anything that sticks. or you're just really eager. I don't know. I don't like the smell of what you're cooking though (some of it smells OK I guess)

Nah, just at cub. Again, I overanalyze a lot.

popc wrote:But unlike your comment to someone else, I don't think this was foolish. I thought implosion's response in #122 was particularly delicious, taking the bait and putting his own uppity defensive attitude on display. He's a contradictory mix of "Yeah, I'm just hanging around here mostly giving troll responses" to "I don't spend every waking moment here! Have some patience." I've made a note of his flippancy for later.

Once again, you are being patently absurd here. For several reasons.

Firstly, I am in no way giving an attitude of "i'm hanging around here giving troll responses." You're literally pulling that out of the ether. I was giving trollish responses, but saying that i was "just hanging around here" or portraying that attitude is ridiculous.

Secondly, EVEN if i was giving that kind of attitude, those are in no way contradictory. One can both be sarcastic and have a life.

Unvote


VOTE: pieceofpecanpie
For a combination of several things. First, for a tone that is reactive rather than proactive (explained in 317). Second, his overreaction, and subsequent reaction to being called out for overreaction. Third, his actions towards me (in particular, misrepresentation as a basis for criticism). Fourth, for generally grasping at straws (specifically, attacking me and others for the amount of time between our posts. Yes, this point may be slightly hypocritical, but again, I grasp at straws for fun).

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:56 am
by implosion
Wonderful, then.

I expect 3-4 new pages responding to my above posts by the next time i look at this game.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:13 am
by Cub Daigoro
Players I currently don't want to lynch today:

goodmorning
implosion
Zaicon
Apozzle
PPP
Cheery Dog

and preferably someone other than NS, too

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:19 am
by Human Destroyer
Tell me why you don't want to lynch Apozzle, my first impression of him was that he was scum.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:52 pm
by goodmorning
Response to implosion: Yes.

Response to Cub: Why, for that matter, are you against a ppp lynch?