Newbie 1744 - Game Over

[copper223]

@Spyre
You did make some really good points about Jason that I missed, so I am re-reading that today.

[Huntress]

Vote Count 1.9

SmoothBlue (3) - Human Sequencer, JasonWazza, Gideon
Gideon (2) - TownCop, copper223
Toto (1) - FrankJaeger

Not voting (3) - SmoothBlue, SpyreX, Toto


With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

Deadline for Day One is Saturday, 15th October 8pm BST, (in (expired on 2016-10-15 20:00:00)).

[JasonWazza]

@All
The fact SB is going through the thread sequentially and answering questions before reading up till the end makes me think he is town

Yes lets use player tells for alignment.

It's a player by player thing, not something that is dependant on alignment.

[JasonWazza]

@Spyre
You did make some really good points about Jason that I missed, so I am re-reading that today.

Also what points does he have?

I rolled my eyes and didn't bother responding, because again, it's using player tells to try and determine alignment.

[copper223]

@Jason

Yes lets use player tells for alignment.

It's a player by player thing, not something that is dependant on alignment

If you are scum, you want your reads to help you out, the more you know about the thread the likelier it is you can formulate a good strategy, that means you are incentivized to read everything before you post, which is not the case when someone asks you a question as town, there you just need to tell them what you think, not reading before replying is therefore not just a play-stile quirk often enough for it to be a tell (I've also had quite a lot of success with it).

The good points Spyre mentions were about you pushing something that was pretty far from what actually happened, why did you decide I was town after all coming back from your break?

[JasonWazza]

If you are scum, you want your reads to help you out, the more you know about the thread the likelier it is you can formulate a good strategy, that means you are incentivized to read everything before you post, which is not the case when someone asks you a question as town, there you just need to tell them what you think, not reading before replying is therefore not just a play-stile quirk often enough for it to be a tell (I've also had quite a lot of success with it).

The good points Spyre mentions were about you pushing something that was pretty far from what actually happened, why did you decide I was town after all coming back from your break?

First part, while that is true, not reading the thread first before posting

doesn't

mean town.

What your trying to use is something that would be a player tell (IE. Something a player always does) as an alignment tell.

Reading and posting based on what you have read (post by post), is by no means an alignment tell, just the same as reading everything all at once isn't an alignment tell.

As for why i think you are town, i re-read all the interactions and realized it's just a clashing of player styles that was giving me the gut feeling of you being scum, there has been more since then and reading it all, it feels like you are town.

[copper223]

@Jason
Do you know that SB never reads the thread before replying regardless of his alignment?

You can't call it a player tell unless you have meta about him doing that, I gave you a decent reason for why that may very depending on the player's alignment (and assuming said player is not aware of the tell and a newbie, cause experienced players tend to just read till the end regardless).

[JasonWazza]

And you can't call it an alignment tell without knowing his meta.

And thus we are at an impasse, where we don't use the tell cause it's shit.

[copper223]

You don't use it, I do and it works fine.

It is also not an impasse, I explained the motivation for why scum and town often behave differently (they have different incentives), you just told me it's a player tell without knowing if it is, that part we can dismiss.

[copper223]

Anyway, I still think Jason is town, to add to what I previously mentioned I found a quote of his in a prior game we played together where he says paraphrasing:
In order to figure out if someone is mafia you sometimes try to make them look bad.

I think most of the Spyre case is him doing this rather than scum making stuff up.

[JasonWazza]

Wait what did i say?

[copper223]

Sometimes to see someone's true intent you have to make them look bad, see how they react and go from there (RVS is somewhat exactly like this)

[TownCop]

I agree with you about not providing the reads though, naturally a town who has gathered information would want to use the info they just gathered.

Did you all have reads at that point? Can you let me know where you all expressed those reads. I can see someone who has more than 2 pages worth of content to sift through to have reads, but I had RVS votes and slight discussions...

I didn't express all my reads at that point, but it's something natural that a town just does when they gather

all the info into one place

, especially when it's for their first time.

[TownCop]

Well, I'm not angry, but I am becoming more suspicious of SmoothBlue... and I have lots of reasons (gasp)!

He says I am "milking the new player card" but he claimed to be a new player himself:
#114 "I am new to Mafiascum, therefore I'll likely botch some tags and also ask for some lingo/try and research it myself (Did not know about RVS, VI, and I believe VC = Vote Count?)."
#122 "Gideon's defense was very odd considering there was only a couple votes down. He definitely is a new players, but I feel he is milking that "new player card". I'd like to see more content out of him."

He seems to have a conviction that all towns provide lots of content, and all scum provide little content. If this is his honest belief, then it explains the excessive amounts of content he's provided in order to make himself think he looks more like town. See:
#122: "I'd like to see more content out of [Gideon]." "I'd like to see more content from Spy."
#279: "My vibe on Gideon is that he isn't exactly providing content to the thread."
#281: "I can see someone who has more than 2 pages worth of content to sift through to have reads."

It was also mentioned that SmoothBlue's catch up post was suspiciously agreeable... fair point...

He says my 'defense' (if you can call it that - I really just asked why he was being voted) of Spy is scummish, but he does the same thing with TownCop:
#168: "I'm confused right now? What happened with TownCop other than he put Toto on L-2? @Toto and Spy, What am I missing here?"
#169: "The only thing that I see is the possible statistics that the 3rd vote was done by TownCop."
#171: "[in response to #170] TownCop even stated he was doing it to pressure Toto."
#171: "TownCop may be scum and was hoping some new townie would hammer Toto." - small distancing tactic, likely would come back to this as defense if (when) TC turned scum
#171: "Toto did a brutal job of trying to defend himself and had votes flying everywhere and settled on TownCop."
#174: "The fact that Spy/Gideon instantly switched their votes/opinions based on the above reasoning is quite ridiculous IMO." - continued defense of TC

To me, this last part is most telling - he has put a ton of posts into defending TownCop, who also acts very scummish by throwing random accusations everywhere. At this point, I have a very strong feeling that one scum is SmoothBlue, and the other is TownCop. Since there seems to be more support for a SmoothBlue lynch at this point, and in the interest of progress, I vote him.

VOTE: SmoothBlue
(wouldn't want this post to be too far from my normal, right?)

You still have failed to show me which accusations I have "thrown everywhere", yet you continually use it. And you seem to have purposely avoided the post I made asking you about your reads. Not sure about the second bit though.

Smells very suspicious

[TownCop]

I'm 100% sure that Gideon has defined himself as town multiple times. Does Gideon not count as someone to you? Does my reasoning make sense now? Either way, he is still providing little content, which is my original point.

Well, to be fair, it doesn't really matter what I say about myself, because even if I were scum I would claim to be town.

I don't really follow your reasoning behind this post. Can you explain what you meant?
Obviously, scum would claim to be town.

[Human Sequencer]

SmoothBlue didn't respond to my pressure in post 242 even though he was online for at least an hour afterwards. It took him two days to defend himself, and that was from everybody else's perspectives. He still didn't refute my original post.

Before he claims that it was so stupid that it wasn't worth responding to, or that he can't defend himself from it, a town would at least acknowledge the post or mention it. Town has no reason to hide their thoughts.

It reads to me as a scum who wasn't sure how to respond, so stayed off for a while and hoped nobody would pick up on it, and begrudgingly defends himself a few days later when his wagon picks up steam.

Spyrex and I have identical hit lists.

Somebody should vote SmoothBlooz to L-1 so we can get a claim out of him so that Spyre can hammer him.

[TownCop]

I honestly wasn't planning to maintain a vote against TownCop, but after his most recent posts, I have a pretty strong feeling that he might be mafia. I'm generally wary of people who make a lot of accusations. So far, the most accusations seem to have come from Toto and TownCop. Before TownCop was accused, he was rather quiet and uninterested in scum hunting.

After the accusation, he frantically started pointing fingers everywhere

. Seems like a pretty strong 'read' to me.

Still, all I know is that I'm town and somebody here isn't.

I see no reason to vote SmoothBlue. TownCop is

trying too hard to be cool under pressure

to be town. I'm maintaining my vote.

My first vote on TC was a 'test', and his response was to

throw accusations everywhere else

to distract us. Scummish behavior.

I have already explained why this post seems scummy, and why you weren't just "reaction testing".

Well, I'm not angry, but I am becoming more suspicious of SmoothBlue... and I have lots of reasons (gasp)!

He says I am "milking the new player card" but he claimed to be a new player himself:
#114 "I am new to Mafiascum, therefore I'll likely botch some tags and also ask for some lingo/try and research it myself (Did not know about RVS, VI, and I believe VC = Vote Count?)."
#122 "Gideon's defense was very odd considering there was only a couple votes down. He definitely is a new players, but I feel he is milking that "new player card". I'd like to see more content out of him."

He seems to have a conviction that all towns provide lots of content, and all scum provide little content. If this is his honest belief, then it explains the excessive amounts of content he's provided in order to make himself think he looks more like town. See:
#122: "I'd like to see more content out of [Gideon]." "I'd like to see more content from Spy."
#279: "My vibe on Gideon is that he isn't exactly providing content to the thread."
#281: "I can see someone who has more than 2 pages worth of content to sift through to have reads."

It was also mentioned that SmoothBlue's catch up post was suspiciously agreeable... fair point...

He says my 'defense' (if you can call it that - I really just asked why he was being voted) of Spy is scummish, but he does the same thing with TownCop:
#168: "I'm confused right now? What happened with TownCop other than he put Toto on L-2? @Toto and Spy, What am I missing here?"
#169: "The only thing that I see is the possible statistics that the 3rd vote was done by TownCop."
#171: "[in response to #170] TownCop even stated he was doing it to pressure Toto."
#171: "TownCop may be scum and was hoping some new townie would hammer Toto." - small distancing tactic, likely would come back to this as defense if (when) TC turned scum
#171: "Toto did a brutal job of trying to defend himself and had votes flying everywhere and settled on TownCop."
#174: "The fact that Spy/Gideon instantly switched their votes/opinions based on the above reasoning is quite ridiculous IMO." - continued defense of TC

To me, this last part is most telling - he has put a ton of posts into defending TownCop, who also acts very scummish by

throwing random accusations

everywhere. At this point, I have a very strong feeling that one scum is SmoothBlue, and the other is TownCop. Since there seems to be more support for a SmoothBlue lynch at this point, and in the interest of progress, I vote him.

VOTE: SmoothBlue
(wouldn't want this post to be too far from my normal, right?)

Your 4th post relating to my "accusations", yet still no explanation.

[copper223]

@HS
Noted, let me put my Gideon fears to rest and then I'll give you that L-1.

[SpyreX]

See towncop does a good job making me paranoid about gideon again to some extent. A puzzle for tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

@copper reread your exchange on this page. See if you note what i note

[Toto]

In regards to Gideon,

Right now, I have a town vibe on him. He will need to add more discussion, ask specific players more questions in the future if he wants to stay alive past Day 2.

In post 276, Gideon wrote:
SmoothBlue and Spyre who's your top suspicion?


Spy and you.

This seems to have changed very recently, why? Also, why are you not voting Gideon or spy, since they are your top scumreads now.

What if the person I was defending at the time, got lynched, and flipped scum. If I'm town, what would your opinions of me be? I suspect, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Ok, I think what you are saying is "why would I stick my neck out if I was scum?" It's a fair point. However:

Quite sure everyone knew you were being tested.

I'll agree it does look that way, but I honestly thought you were wrongly accused. What if you flipped scum and I'm town?

1) You said, "everyone knew TC was being tested" (paraphrased)
2) If I was scum I would not defend him in case he flipped scum.

Does that add up to you? Where is the neck-sticking-outness if you assume (1)?

I'm 100% sure that Gideon has defined himself as town multiple times. Does Gideon not count as someone to you? Does my reasoning make sense now? Either way, he is still providing little content, which is my original point.

Nope. It doesn't make sense that this is equal to Gideon saying "A is scum and B is town". I don't see how this the same thing and why feel the need to defend this.

[copper223]

@Spyre
What I noticed is that TC is bringing up most of the points, slightly changing the flavor of the question, I did to ask Gideon about and it's having the opposite effect on me, especially after HS's post, makes me think TC is SB's buddy after all and he is looking at Gideon for the CW piggybacking on my suspicion.

The interesting point in the Jason discussion, other than highlighting once again that we seem to read the game in different ways, was him lumping together my argument about how you read the thread possibly being AI with your points about his play.

I'm also interested in his next post, cause his reaction when I brought up the quote makes me think he doesn't believe it's relevant in this context.

[Gideon]

(your point that he switched from experienced to newbie when he needed to is another story).

Isn't the really only nooby thing I did when was question the RVS? I'm not new to mafia in general. I know what I'm doing.

[Gideon]

See towncop does a good job making me paranoid about gideon again to some extent. A puzzle for tomorrow.

Spyre, I'm not your guy. You know I've been town this whole game. I've done nothing but scumhunt and it seems I'm getting warmer, since the guy I'm accusing is trying to get me lynched. I don't really know what good argument he gave against me, so I am honestly confused in that respect.

[copper223]

Isn't the really only nooby thing I did when was question the RVS? I'm not new to mafia in general. I know what I'm doing.

This was not you, this was SB.