Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[TheThirteenthJT]

Finally 268, 278 and 284 are a strange sequence. If you think the point is worth making why did you immediately back down? And if you think it is probably nothing why bring it up at all?

Again ignored my point. I never backed down. I made a point, 72 said he didn't see it so I replied with the contradiction a bit clearer. All game it's been like that. You keep picking and choosing to fluff your agrument against me which started when I was at 3 votes. You started trying to justify joining my wagon since then while keeping your vote on Italiano. Ready to jump ship if the Italiano wagon failed.

[UNOwen]

I've answered your question he was mostly a gut read earlier and a bit of POE and potential partners and who I have less scum opinions on. Gut is a justification at times when it's early game. And regardless this was in relation to Drpeppers partner and not as individual scum suspect. My townlean changed because of how I interpreted his posts.and how I was moving away from DrPepper scum. And again you ignored me rereading. During regular play I was focused on answering questions while trying to see other points made by players. I can't catch everything. I am also not solo and have a team I should be listening too. I've noticed I'm lost in some people's reads so clearly I've missed things which is again why I'm going back through everything slower

Yes I know this was the explanation and I don't think it's a good one. Gut scum read is one thing, gut scum partner read when you don't individually suspect that person is more difficult to buy. As for rereading, what you choose to highlight during it is significant.

Again ignored my point. I never backed down. I made a point, 72 said he didn't see it so I replied with the contradiction a bit clearer. All game it's been like that. You keep picking and choosing to fluff your agrument against me which started when I was at 3 votes. You started trying to justify joining my wagon since then while keeping your vote on Italiano. Ready to jump ship if the Italiano wagon failed.

That's fair actually, I misread that post.

[72offsuit]

You guys are ignoring what I'm saying and posting what's convinient. I said I'm rereading for things I've missed. So it should come hand in hand with points I have not made yet. I am taking my time to reread because last game I did scum read one player and basically held my scum read throughout the game and eventually was wrong about them. This game I'm trying to keep an open mind and be more flexible.

To answer Italiano my last game Newbie 2009, I did have a hard time removing a player from my scumread. This probably came from lack of playing. I used to feel more leniant moving people in my scumreads.

Uno you've conviniently ignored everything I've said. I've been waiting for someone else to join my wagon and would like 72 to weigh in on this. In my reread I noticed something interesting in his posts and I want to see if I'm right.

I've answered your question he was mostly a gut read earlier and a bit of POE and potential partners and who I have less scum opinions on. Gut is a justification at times when it's early game. And regardless this was in relation to Drpeppers partner and not as individual scum suspect. My townlean changed because of how I interpreted his posts.and how I was moving away from DrPepper scum. And again you ignored me rereading. During regular play I was focused on answering questions while trying to see other points made by players. I can't catch everything. I am also not solo and have a team I should be listening too. I've noticed I'm lost in some people's reads so clearly I've missed things which is again why I'm going back through everything slower

I'd actually like to weight OUT at this point.

[72offsuit]

@Walter - trying to be a fly on the wall, would you say you would appear as townie to other town players or scummy to other town players?

Is this a question that helps the town? I'm trying to get a better understanding of the questions I should be asking, but this one seems kind of pointless?

I'm still learning what questions are useful too. Just try to generate discussion that is player-specific. Trial and error.
My intention is to see if his SRs and TRs align with what !townWalter would be thinking about the SRs and TRs of others on him.

[72offsuit]

UNVOTE: Italiano
VOTE: ThirteenthJT
Italiano has gotten more townie, JT hasn't. In particular I like that Italiano has brought up JT's "guess" that there is a scum within the experienced players, despite not holding active suspicions of any of them. That's something that I had noticed, so it's reassuring that Italiano is looking at those posts in a similar way. It is the same sort of backwards approach from JT that led to him deciding that one of DoctorPepper/myself must be scum.

I agree with 72's point about survivalism and I don't buy JT's claim in 198 that he has a genuine fear of getting quicklynched at this stage of the game. 206 seems overly defensive considering his suspicion of me has been passively held since he entered the game.

Going back further, Walter appeared on JT's initial scum list without justification in 67. I think this is convenient since Walter was the only other player with a serious vote against him at that point. Later this became a town lean in 137. Walter had 3 posts during this period (none of which look telling to me) and I think more significantly 72 dropped the vote against him. And now DoctorPepper has voted Walter it looks like Walter is back on JT's scum list.

Finally 268, 278 and 284 are a strange sequence. If you think the point is worth making why did you immediately back down? And if you think it is probably nothing why bring it up at all?

As someone who was scumreading TTJT earlier on in the game, why are you just agreeing with me regarding my post about TTJT being scum-survivalist now? I posted this back in 234 .

I feel like !townUno mindset here would have been to focus on posts pertaining to their scumread (TTJT). The section on TTJT in 234 went by with no comment til now.

[72offsuit]

Ye, what little there is of pii does read pretty badly.

[ItalianoVD]

And I can put my full readlist once I'm done. Currently I am on page 7 ok f the day and will finish up tomorrow. Mixing my reads with my reread reads my top two scum reads right now are Unowen and Walterthedunce. Behind them I have 3 weaker scum reads.

How close are you to being done with your reads?

[ItalianoVD]

I thought the scum team might have been you + GuiltyLion and wanted to keep the pressure on in case I was right. My suspicions of you both have lessened since then, so it's no longer something I'm interested in pursuing.

When did you mention that you thought GuiltyLion was scum? Only mention I see from you regarding GuiltyLion are in posts 167 & 202. As a matter of fact could you give us a reads list?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm still learning what questions are useful too. Just try to generate discussion that is player-specific. Trial and error.
My intention is to see if his SRs and TRs align with what !townWalter would be thinking about the SRs and TRs of others on him.

Ahh okay. I still don't see a point of the questioning and why it stands out for Walter, but that's okay. I'm not sure if I need to see a point.

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE: Italiano
VOTE: ThirteenthJT
In particular I like that Italiano has brought up JT's "guess" that there is a scum within the experienced players, despite not holding active suspicions of any of them.

That's something that I had noticed, so it's reassuring that Italiano is looking at those posts in a similar way.

It is the same sort of backwards approach from JT that led to him deciding that one of DoctorPepper/myself must be scum.

If that's something you noticed, why wasn't it one of your main reasons for scumreading him? And I wouldn't say that it was a backwards approach.

[Ydrasse]

sorry for dipping after dropping my vote a few pages back, irl stuff do be a bitch.

is there anything people want me to reply to/look at in particular as i start going through the new pages?

[Micc]

Votecount 1.07

UNOwen (2) -

TheThirteenthJT, ItalianoVD

Sera Masumi (2) -

GuiltyLion, WaltertheDunce10

TheThirteenthJT (2) -

72offsuit, UNOwen

ItalianoVD (1) -

Ydrasse

WaltertheDunce10 (1) -

DoctorPepper

Not Voting (1) -

Sera Masumi

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-28 20:00:00).

Prodding Sera Masumi.

[UNOwen]

As someone who was scumreading TTJT earlier on in the game, why are you just agreeing with me regarding my post about TTJT being scum-survivalist now? I posted this back in 234 .

I feel like !townUno mindset here would have been to focus on posts pertaining to their scumread (TTJT). The section on TTJT in 234 went by with no comment til now.

I've been following your point about survivalism since you first made it, hence why I asked him about his fear of quick lynch.
I wasn't interested in pushing it beforehand because Italiano and GuiltyLion were my focus. I'm satisfied now that theory was at least partly wrong, which brings my attention back to JT.

[UNOwen]

When did you mention that you thought GuiltyLion was scum? Only mention I see from you regarding GuiltyLion are in posts 167 & 202. As a matter of fact could you give us a reads list?

I didn't mention, it was something I was looking at. Specifically the scenario of him and you being scum together. I think I was wrong about you, so some of that has fallen by the wayside. As far as reads: 72, Walter and now yourself are leaning town. JT is leaning scum. The rest are under observation to varying degrees.

If that's something you noticed, why wasn't it one of your main reasons for scumreading him? And I wouldn't say that it was a backwards approach.

I'm not sure what you are referring to re: my reasons for scumreading him. I listed it as a reason just then.
It is backwards because it's based on nothing. It would be the same as if I said "I guess there's scum among the players who's names start with A-M". If I don't scumread anyone in that category (and even if I did I would just name them) then what is the point of the suggestion other than to get people to look on them more sceptically.

[TheThirteenthJT]

i don't think that wagoning the slot is inherently a bad idea just because someone's gonna replace into it.

however, my poe still includes italiano as a potential solve; rereading his iso (b/c of their self-vote from yesterday), his only mention of pii before they started adding pii into their solve was 81 where they townread them. and then they come back to that slot in 188 with a scumread.

i think that what pinged me about this was that it came after italiano self-voting. while i think that frustration is within a vacuum nai, that he had pressure on him and then turned to a self-vote after feels very ate-y to me. the vibe i got was that it was a bit dramatic (that being "i've tried to no avail.") before it was being brushed off and he replaced his vote on his scumread and jumped back in. it feels as if the pii scumread of convenience because italiano doesn't interact with the content of the few posts themselves.

supporting the idea that italiano could theoretically do this as scum is 204, in which he says he's been in wolf games before this and has done bold moves which to me reads as a dissonance between something i pointed out in 79 and 91, where he asserts that he is a new player to this sort of stuff. i think that while there is not a 1:1 between all versions of mafia and italiano is new to this format, i feel in particular 91 feels a bit wifomy having 204 to read now.

that being said, i could see pii as scum despite this, though without more to judge i don't think i'm sold entirely on the idea. it's possible that italiano was frustrated, if they are scum with pii, that their partner has been inactive thus far and finds it easier to bus them at this point.

pii's posts were nondescript to me and i don't feel that i can say much more on the slot until someone replaces into it and becomes active.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Hmm I read Italianos self vote as truly a moment of desperation. If it was scum motivated, you are right on your analysis here which I have now also come to agreement with on my recent posts. Sorry I missed that you made this point earlier.

Now I would also say I feel like an experienced player would have been the one to edge him on here because I truly don't think Italiano would have taken that big of a risk or maybe he would. At bare minimum he would have consulted his partner here I would think. This is bad Wifom.

[TheThirteenthJT]

I agree,
VOTE: piisirrational slot

What made you vote pii now? You had a chance earlier and now it seems like you were hoping not to be the first on the wagon.

Also should we be wagoning this now that they've asked for replacement? I guess I kind of feel bad for whoever replaces starting off in such a bad spot. I would at least wait for them to post personally lol.

Guilty made some good points that I agreed with enough to think they may be scum.
Plus whoever replaces him will have to respond in some way.
I also think that lynching piis at this point is a good one.
For one, if he is town scum lose the ability to kill a lurker and leave us in the dark.
This kill has to be used on someone where something is revealed.
If he is scum then that is even better.
That was my thinking in voting.

I see your point here on lynching Pii but I don't agree that this is good reasoning. His partner will also have a hard time responding. With so much going on in the thread, attacking a new replacement slot with low activity is avoiding conflict.

[Ydrasse]

GuiltyLion

:

Early on, I had a light TR (28) on GuiltyLion for his answer to DoctorPepper, and I think that the way he's approached this game as a whole has left me feeling good about him. I feel that his play is an exceedingly fair and open-minded, and tries to engage with people without any scum agenda behind it. Whenever I see people trying to get to the why behind someone's actions and motivations, I find that towny if only because it shows a person who is trying to understand others and work alongside the town rather than against it.

That being said, I did get pinged by post 63 and that is why I followed up in 77; I think that people who out townreads and just say them without reason could be scum who are using it to pocket other players. It's easier for a scum player to just out a few names and say they're towny if they're informed and hope that people will take it at face value. Thus, my paranoia.

Regardless, he did follow up eventually, so that was that. Even if he hadn't, I like posts such as 218 and 255, and they leave me feeling good about GuiltyLion.

My one point against GuiltyLion as it stands is that I don't really like the pii vote in retrospect. I feel that between the two choices of his SRs, it would've made a lot more sense to have voted 72 in that situation. Even if it is the weaker of the two reads from what I gather in 255, putting pressure on someone who is there and active feels fruitful in comparison to a slot that still hasn't appeared — granted an explanation came in the form of 252, which means this could just be my personal preference as to how I would've played versus someone who Isn't Me.

However, I don't think that's damning enough at all to make me consider GuiltyLion a lynch today at all, and I feel good about this slot as it stands.

[Ydrasse]

WaltertheDunce10:

I feel that Walter's posting, for the most part, is fine in the early parts of the game. Nothing about it in particular unnerved me and I admittedly didn't think too hard about what he was saying.

However, going over his ISO again I feel that it's weird that he dropped the scumread he had on DoctorPepper in 69 (and 140? but I could be misinterpreting this). While he was consistent about the scumread on 72, the other one isn't mentioned again. In fact, the first time it is mentioned at all is in reply to someone else (69), who had a read on DoctorPepper.

Similarly, his vote on Pii seems to be one that needed someone else's affirmation behind it before he was willing to go after it. Walter had already shaded Pii in 133, and in 196 he makes reference to Pii and his activity again. However, it is only after Lion places his vote that Walter is willing to in 219.

I do not think it is bad to follow someone else's points/reads; similarly, I found that GuiltyLion made good points on the Pii slot whereas I had next to nothing on in until his analysis. It feels scummy, though, for Walter to have this habit of shading people but only going after them when there's someone else to back him up.

That being said, I think that his progression on 72 is the one that stands out. I don't think the rationale behind it is great, since it seems to be based upon one of the questions that 72 asked, but he did so without prompting or following anyone else, and it later resolved itself as Walter unvoted. In theory, this could be a scum player trying to get traction on someone and bailing out when no one seems to bite, but I'm unsure of how likely that is.

I think that I would not be surprised if Walter was scum, based on his reads and voting patterns, but I'm also considering the amount of experience that he has as well. It could be that he's a town player that reacts and reads things very... shallowly? Which is not bad because yeah, it's hard playing for your first games and you learn from other players and how they approach things. It just makes Walter look really bad for being super sheepy.

So this slot is in the lower end of things for me, but I don't see it as my first choice vote at all.

[Ydrasse]

okay there are my two isos so far my brain hurts and i'm taking a break.

[TheThirteenthJT]

b) I'm OK to explain this now. My singling out of a single player despite several players greeting the whole thread, was intentional.
I've tried out the newbie greeting = scum theory and it was a crock of crap, where we vote for our

tracker

, lol.
See: Newbie 1994
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82538
I picked walter as my RVS, as it was his first game, and thought I'd be more likely to get an alignment-indicative reaction
from him than a more expreienced player.
I also chose to push him on the "greeting-scum-tell" because it was his first game, whereas Ydrasse already had played a game.
I wanted to see others reactions to my overzealous and lame push on walter. No bites on the fishing rod.


.

Both you and lion seemed sudden for posting

K why do you think lion is derailing the thread for then if scum?

Like I said in my post. I can see it from both perspectives. !townGL reading others as town and being paranoid of me, or !scumGL pushing on threats to !scumagenda. The problem is I;m not really seeing his townread on Uno nor yourself.

@Walter - trying to be a fly on the wall, would you say you would appear as townie to other town players or scummy to other town players?

From the 2 games iv played, and the one i was town specifically, i was read as scum the entire day and lynched as a town tracker.
I could post a link to it if you would like that?

Coincidence? Or convient Walter using ATE on 72 to avoid being scumread?

[Ydrasse]

i don't think that wagoning the slot is inherently a bad idea just because someone's gonna replace into it.

however, my poe still includes italiano as a potential solve; rereading his iso (b/c of their self-vote from yesterday), his only mention of pii before they started adding pii into their solve was 81 where they townread them. and then they come back to that slot in 188 with a scumread.

i think that what pinged me about this was that it came after italiano self-voting. while i think that frustration is within a vacuum nai, that he had pressure on him and then turned to a self-vote after feels very ate-y to me. the vibe i got was that it was a bit dramatic (that being "i've tried to no avail.") before it was being brushed off and he replaced his vote on his scumread and jumped back in. it feels as if the pii scumread of convenience because italiano doesn't interact with the content of the few posts themselves.

supporting the idea that italiano could theoretically do this as scum is 204, in which he says he's been in wolf games before this and has done bold moves which to me reads as a dissonance between something i pointed out in 79 and 91, where he asserts that he is a new player to this sort of stuff. i think that while there is not a 1:1 between all versions of mafia and italiano is new to this format, i feel in particular 91 feels a bit wifomy having 204 to read now.

that being said, i could see pii as scum despite this, though without more to judge i don't think i'm sold entirely on the idea. it's possible that italiano was frustrated, if they are scum with pii, that their partner has been inactive thus far and finds it easier to bus them at this point.

pii's posts were nondescript to me and i don't feel that i can say much more on the slot until someone replaces into it and becomes active.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Hmm I read Italianos self vote as truly a moment of desperation. If it was scum motivated, you are right on your analysis here which I have now also come to agreement with on my recent posts. Sorry I missed that you made this point earlier.

Now I would also say I feel like an experienced player would have been the one to edge him on here because I truly don't think Italiano would have taken that big of a risk or maybe he would. At bare minimum he would have consulted his partner here I would think. This is bad Wifom.

i've been meaning to ask you this: earlier on in 137, you said you believed that there was at least one experienced player in the scumteam. i don't think anyone followed up on this, but why did you think that? given the fact that you've referenced an experienced player being the person italiano would've relied on for this play, it seems like you still put some merit into that idea fmpov.

which is a bit confusing because from your last reads, you had two players as your main srs that weren't experienced at all (285). i know you're rereading but the two ideas seem at odds with one another.

[TheThirteenthJT]

That opinion is independant from my reads. I just feel there are too many strong players this game based on the little metareads I've done. This makes me believe it will not be an easy game to play. I feel that if any one of our SEs is scum we are going to be blindsided hard. At the same time I'm having a hard time pinpointing scum reads in them which is why I can not say which one if any of them are scum. 72 is the one from the three that has set me off the most however.

The vibes I'm getting is at least one person is playing a strong town game to throw us off. At the same time it could just be my paranoia because I'm getting clear town scumhunting vibes from a few players and that is abnormal for me making me skeptical. I feel like I'm being played.

Here is my readlist

Guilty Lion
Drpepper
Sera

I will call these three the null.

Italiano
Ydrasse
72

I've seen strong town points/reasons but at times felt something off and having a hard time pinpointing.

Walterthedunce
Unowen

My two strongest scumreads after my reread completion. Walter did shoot up my rankings.

I too will begin elaborating on my reads. I also have some interesting pairings if you are all in for a little speculation posting.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Also I feel that the SEs are coming off strong. This confidence I'm sensing is probably what is triggering my scum radar off the most.

[WaltertheDunce10]

That opinion is independant from my reads. I just feel there are too many strong players this game based on the little metareads I've done. This makes me believe it will not be an easy game to play. I feel that if any one of our SEs is scum we are going to be blindsided hard. At the same time I'm having a hard time pinpointing scum reads in them which is why I can not say which one if any of them are scum. 72 is the one from the three that has set me off the most however.

The vibes I'm getting is at least one person is playing a strong town game to throw us off. At the same time it could just be my paranoia because I'm getting clear town scumhunting vibes from a few players and that is abnormal for me making me skeptical. I feel like I'm being played.

Here is my readlist

Guilty Lion
Drpepper
Sera

I will call these three the null.

Italiano
Ydrasse
72

I've seen strong town points/reasons but at times felt something off and having a hard time pinpointing.

Walterthedunce
Unowen

My two strongest scumreads after my reread completion. Walter did shoot up my rankings.

I too will begin elaborating on my reads. I also have some interesting pairings if you are all in for a little speculation posting.

I am curious you have sera as a town read, may I ask why?

[TheThirteenthJT]

Not a town read. Just not enough I feel to scumread. Even after looking at the points made on Pii. Thus the null.