White Flag - TM2020

[Formerfish]

I have been working hard at my game to reach that level. Am i like Creature lvl yet?

[Auro]

I go to my team pt and ask the question and come back and tell you that Reundo thinks that im a moron and my reasoning is shit, but its my game so do me.

Yes, then I do not conclude you're scum straight away. You now have a trustworthy town voice (partner) telling you your reasoning is shit. I'd then see whether you reevaluate based on this information, and how you will.

Aww... are you calling me irrational?

Your pushes were irrational, and I don't know if you're irrational as a person. (Mom *could* be irrational as scum/town). When I say "bad/shitty/horrible" reasoning, I mean irrational reasoning.

[Auro]

Reminder that FF put me at L-2. Scum can easily pile on and derp hammer again. FF should know this.

[Auro]

I have quoted Cephrir's latest post where you were mentioned. Hopkirk flipped town, which means you were the second scummiest candidate after Gob.

I have offered proof that Ceph scumread you.

Either agree with this, or prove otherwise.

FF, you're pretty silent about this. So is that agreement that Ceph didn't townread you?

[Auro]

Spoiler:

@Formerfish

I took Gobs 344 way differently than you did. I'll wait for Gob to chime in before I give my 2 cents though.

Is now a good time for this? In his current absence I'm pondering that the early rudeness with you two may have been theater. :b

Still pending.

---

I've just gone through a full multi-iso of you/Cheeky/wgeurts. This entire post is going to about you and I am going to do my best to make it not a nightmare to read.

Auro/Dann/Dunn/Dong/Hop all go after you a bit for your early posts, which I don't think was especially deserved except I guess by PoE, what you were doing was fine for page 2.

Looking at the big catch-up: far from IIOA, content is there. There's good things, some less good things. Hopkirk townread has the least established progression in your posts.

Spoiler:

Gobble is the scummiest player at this point in the game.

If you have meta info on scum NSG you should share it, I don't know what you are talking about.

VOTE: Formerfish

Gob is the scummiest player to Dunn. Gob claims to have info on NSG that makes her scum. Dunn votes me while asking his biggest scum read what makes NSG scum. That totally makes sense.

At this point Brad stood up from his computer and went into the kitchen. In the back of the cabinet there was a bottle that had grown a bit dusty over time. Some ol' kentucky rye whiskey sloshed in the bottle as it was removed from its forgotten home. See the only time that Brad ever drinks from this bottle is when he has read something that makes his head literally hurt. Brad used to go the hospital in the past when things like this happened. He would explain how he felt and the doctors and nurses would listen and they would run some tests. All of those actions were in vain as what Brad was suffering from was not something that could be deduced by any tests known to man. Brad was suffering from an allergy to other people and the things that they say that make no sense at all. Brad has been doing good, staying on the right path, avoiding politics and any discussions of religion. Playing Mafia was playing with fire though, and deep down Brad always knew that this would be the ending given enough time. Well what the hell, I know the medication says not to drink with it, but thats just a suggestion right?

This is by far your weirdest take. You have totally lost the nuance here that Gobble was gone for fucking ages, and that Dunn in the same catch-up style you are literally doing yourself, comments on the re-entrance and then ends up flipping his vote to you. This looks like a clapback for moving onto you. Because if what you quoted is the entire progression, that's probably worth digging into more than it seems like you ever do. But somehow you've gone to the effort of cutting up the quote to narrate it like this without analysing the situation fully. If this is your honest reaction to the post than frankly I don't get why you don't suspect Dunn more from it.

[snip]

And its cool man, i do better in figuring people out by talking to them in real time because they have less time to try and figure out angels and you get more honest answers. If you hunt differently, then do you.

This kind of makes me feel worse about your manner of posting today (as in when I'm writing this post). Because I feel like there was a lot of thread activity to dig into and I don't feel the energy of you suddenly having more of a real-time opportunity than you usually have in the game.

oh i see what you mean, you made those shorter posts while that one was in draft. That makes sense

Hop 'Hopenhop' Hop

Aaaaaayyy, he got there.

And I'll answer CT here as well. Your slot dropped off because when I read the thread in one go i liked that slot, then i realized how dormant it went after bitching at someone for saying they might not give 100% attention to this game.

CT, did you iso me, because if you did you would have seen the post i made about why my read changed on geurts and why he went from a townleanish to a scumlean.

Thats why i said you had a whole to climb out of as soon as you came into the thread.

I feel like both arguments Hoppy and CT are using against me are bad premises because they either missed info crucial to their basis or they ignored something i totally said.

They're bad premises, but are they scummy ones? I feel like addressing it as a pattern that is happening against you is the more defensive and less productive angle to take. Rather than looking at the motivation behind them individually. And while the full explanation of his wgeurts slot read is prompted by Cheeky, it doesn't sit that well with me. Acknowledging that Hopkirk misunderstood you and now says you "make sense" but still writing him out as arguing against you with a "bad premise" is sorta odd shade toward an apparent townread while Cheeky was scummier for you. Overall, just a tonally weird post.

Spoiler: NSG stuff

I was going to wall again, but Im high and feel a little wordy and like things might not flow if i bunched everything together. Enjoy this next few hours postings.

despite what I've said I don't actually want to lynch nsg day 1, I was just hoping wagoning her would be effective in getting her to play and ehhhhhh

I've been thinking about this a little bit. If NSGs team is pulling her to other games where they need help do you think that they would do that with her as scum or as town? If she is scum then wouldn't her team make shes in here making noise so she doesnt take this heat? If she is town then they probably assume that they can borrow her for the time being with the idea that she can come in here and town it up when she needs to.

This is all kinda working under the idea that we are incapable of finding scum on our own and that we need her to come save us.

I think that we have a good deal of info going into this first lynch and that we will have a better understanding of the game state when we see a few flips.

If she is scum then wouldn't her team make shes in here making noise so she doesnt take this heat? If she is town then they probably assume that they can borrow her for the time being with the idea that she can come in here and town it up when she needs to.

I've addressed this.
If she's scum she'd be held accountable for her pushes, she'd take heat for driving a mislynch.
If she's town she's a prime target for a N1 kill, meaning she'd want to have some impact on the game - making her refusal to play D1 strange.

I dunno, I think there is a good chance that if she really thinks shes going to die tonight that maybe her not doing anything d1 is a decent strategy.

Think about it. If she try-hards today and comes up with a bunch of solid reads, it almost certainly seals her fate tonight. And then we move on and who really listens to dead people when they die?

If she lays low and lets us progress the game scum is going to be forced to make a choice between taking out a vocal town leader from today, or NSG who could potentially be a leader in the future. This gives her the best chance to get to d2 as town imo.

I complained about this in my team discord back when it happened, which launched into a bit of a convo about what that meant in terms of TvS/SvS etc., from that noticed you'd made a point of saying you didn't know NSG well multiple times earlier. I'm not entirely sure this is a logical following from your earlier expressed thoughts on her including that.

That aside, you've 'been thinking' about it and have these long paragraphs that reflect... the level 1 base interpretation of accepting NSG's premises... My personal viewpoint is that this is a WIFOM argument that is being presented as though the rest of us somehow didn't consider it. I definitely didn't like this, how much of that is differences in perspective is something I'm unsure of.

Spoiler: Problematic progression?

FF has been tiptoeing around what could be deemed the strong town players Dunn, Dann, Kitty and town reading the not so towny people. When he decided to attack Dann he was constantly throwing shade and acting like he was reassessing but he wasn't, he left dann in his scum reads after saying he felt better. His jump on the Auro wagon was opportunistic, ceasing on the game trajectory that was running in his favour. These are the main points I'll be elaborating on.

FF is interacting with Dunn in a way that feels like he's trying to stay under the radar. It's what and who he's picking and choosing to respond to. You're not giving his town game enough credit if you think this is it.

Cheeky I don't know if you're looking for a formal invite for us to interact, cause I'm not sure why you are unable to ask me whatever you wanna talk about.

Like I said go read my iso and to come back with questions about my reads or anything you wanted to talk about, did I miss a response to that or are you still just trying to compare my play here to how I play as an SE in newbie games?

This is a very different game for many reasons. First of all I have 3 other players looking at the game and giving their takes and opinions on people so I dont have to do all my hunting here since I have some good fucking partners helping me there. Second, the last time i did a TM i played horribly and Im trying to not repeat that performance. Third, sue me If I wanna take this game a little more serious since im having some issues with inadequacy on site and maybe if I actually play well here and show people im not some chuckle fuck that ill feel better.

I can go back to shotgunning anything that moves if you really want me to, but I think that time is gone in this game and you missed it. We are here now and you wanna talk but whenever you talk to me it doesnt seem like you are talking about what you want to talk about.

I will hang Dann or Auro right now, CT maybe her arguments against me feel very contrived, but she claims a case is coming, so...

I dunno if you missed this specific post, but given she did make the beginnings of a case there, the meta bit is not the important thing to be focusing on. Not that I don't agree that you playing differently in Team Mafia than a newbie game doesn't make sense, it's just also pretty NAI.

Quote the multiple people explaining why it's anti-town.

People don't need to explain things to your liking for it to be true, your role pm dictated that long before you opened your mouth and let us all see which color you got as clearly as you did when you opened the pm.

I have two shoulder angels in this game, and the one that doesn't like you was put off by you in real-time this 1v1 argument. From a theory standpoint I side with you, and yet what made me facepalm was not that I felt Auro was being disingenuous, it was him being seemingly so genuinely obstinate for the umpteenth time despite me not agreeing. But the bigger issue is that I don't know if I see this as you genuinely becoming more convinced he's scum, or that that tracks onto how you came back to the thread afterward. Like, you've clarified you prefer Auro/Dann/Dong lynches. But your re-entrance is very...calm toward those people, main reaction to goings-on is that Dunn is the "sane one."

Anyway: These are my concerns about you, feel free to clear any of them up.

Hell, here's KittyMo's latest post relating to her read on you. A giant wall of concerns.

Feel free to quote a more recent post of hers where she townread you. Maybe I missed it.

[Auro]

Spoiler: Kitty's Massive FF Concern Post, her spoilers removed

@Formerfish

I took Gobs 344 way differently than you did. I'll wait for Gob to chime in before I give my 2 cents though.

Is now a good time for this? In his current absence I'm pondering that the early rudeness with you two may have been theater. :b

Still pending.

---

I've just gone through a full multi-iso of you/Cheeky/wgeurts. This entire post is going to about you and I am going to do my best to make it not a nightmare to read.

Auro/Dann/Dunn/Dong/Hop all go after you a bit for your early posts, which I don't think was especially deserved except I guess by PoE, what you were doing was fine for page 2.

Looking at the big catch-up: far from IIOA, content is there. There's good things, some less good things. Hopkirk townread has the least established progression in your posts.

Gobble is the scummiest player at this point in the game.

If you have meta info on scum NSG you should share it, I don't know what you are talking about.

VOTE: Formerfish

Gob is the scummiest player to Dunn. Gob claims to have info on NSG that makes her scum. Dunn votes me while asking his biggest scum read what makes NSG scum. That totally makes sense.

At this point Brad stood up from his computer and went into the kitchen. In the back of the cabinet there was a bottle that had grown a bit dusty over time. Some ol' kentucky rye whiskey sloshed in the bottle as it was removed from its forgotten home. See the only time that Brad ever drinks from this bottle is when he has read something that makes his head literally hurt. Brad used to go the hospital in the past when things like this happened. He would explain how he felt and the doctors and nurses would listen and they would run some tests. All of those actions were in vain as what Brad was suffering from was not something that could be deduced by any tests known to man. Brad was suffering from an allergy to other people and the things that they say that make no sense at all. Brad has been doing good, staying on the right path, avoiding politics and any discussions of religion. Playing Mafia was playing with fire though, and deep down Brad always knew that this would be the ending given enough time. Well what the hell, I know the medication says not to drink with it, but thats just a suggestion right?

This is by far your weirdest take. You have totally lost the nuance here that Gobble was gone for fucking ages, and that Dunn in the same catch-up style you are literally doing yourself, comments on the re-entrance and then ends up flipping his vote to you. This looks like a clapback for moving onto you. Because if what you quoted is the entire progression, that's probably worth digging into more than it seems like you ever do. But somehow you've gone to the effort of cutting up the quote to narrate it like this without analysing the situation fully. If this is your honest reaction to the post than frankly I don't get why you don't suspect Dunn more from it.

[snip]

And its cool man, i do better in figuring people out by talking to them in real time because they have less time to try and figure out angels and you get more honest answers. If you hunt differently, then do you.

This kind of makes me feel worse about your manner of posting today (as in when I'm writing this post). Because I feel like there was a lot of thread activity to dig into and I don't feel the energy of you suddenly having more of a real-time opportunity than you usually have in the game.

oh i see what you mean, you made those shorter posts while that one was in draft. That makes sense

Hop 'Hopenhop' Hop

Aaaaaayyy, he got there.

And I'll answer CT here as well. Your slot dropped off because when I read the thread in one go i liked that slot, then i realized how dormant it went after bitching at someone for saying they might not give 100% attention to this game.

CT, did you iso me, because if you did you would have seen the post i made about why my read changed on geurts and why he went from a townleanish to a scumlean.

Thats why i said you had a whole to climb out of as soon as you came into the thread.

I feel like both arguments Hoppy and CT are using against me are bad premises because they either missed info crucial to their basis or they ignored something i totally said.

They're bad premises, but are they scummy ones? I feel like addressing it as a pattern that is happening against you is the more defensive and less productive angle to take. Rather than looking at the motivation behind them individually. And while the full explanation of his wgeurts slot read is prompted by Cheeky, it doesn't sit that well with me. Acknowledging that Hopkirk misunderstood you and now says you "make sense" but still writing him out as arguing against you with a "bad premise" is sorta odd shade toward an apparent townread while Cheeky was scummier for you. Overall, just a tonally weird post.

I was going to wall again, but Im high and feel a little wordy and like things might not flow if i bunched everything together. Enjoy this next few hours postings.

despite what I've said I don't actually want to lynch nsg day 1, I was just hoping wagoning her would be effective in getting her to play and ehhhhhh

I've been thinking about this a little bit. If NSGs team is pulling her to other games where they need help do you think that they would do that with her as scum or as town? If she is scum then wouldn't her team make shes in here making noise so she doesnt take this heat? If she is town then they probably assume that they can borrow her for the time being with the idea that she can come in here and town it up when she needs to.

This is all kinda working under the idea that we are incapable of finding scum on our own and that we need her to come save us.

I think that we have a good deal of info going into this first lynch and that we will have a better understanding of the game state when we see a few flips.

If she is scum then wouldn't her team make shes in here making noise so she doesnt take this heat? If she is town then they probably assume that they can borrow her for the time being with the idea that she can come in here and town it up when she needs to.

I've addressed this.
If she's scum she'd be held accountable for her pushes, she'd take heat for driving a mislynch.
If she's town she's a prime target for a N1 kill, meaning she'd want to have some impact on the game - making her refusal to play D1 strange.

I dunno, I think there is a good chance that if she really thinks shes going to die tonight that maybe her not doing anything d1 is a decent strategy.

Think about it. If she try-hards today and comes up with a bunch of solid reads, it almost certainly seals her fate tonight. And then we move on and who really listens to dead people when they die?

If she lays low and lets us progress the game scum is going to be forced to make a choice between taking out a vocal town leader from today, or NSG who could potentially be a leader in the future. This gives her the best chance to get to d2 as town imo.

I complained about this in my team discord back when it happened, which launched into a bit of a convo about what that meant in terms of TvS/SvS etc., from that noticed you'd made a point of saying you didn't know NSG well multiple times earlier. I'm not entirely sure this is a logical following from your earlier expressed thoughts on her including that.

That aside, you've 'been thinking' about it and have these long paragraphs that reflect... the level 1 base interpretation of accepting NSG's premises... My personal viewpoint is that this is a WIFOM argument that is being presented as though the rest of us somehow didn't consider it. I definitely didn't like this, how much of that is differences in perspective is something I'm unsure of.

FF has been tiptoeing around what could be deemed the strong town players Dunn, Dann, Kitty and town reading the not so towny people. When he decided to attack Dann he was constantly throwing shade and acting like he was reassessing but he wasn't, he left dann in his scum reads after saying he felt better. His jump on the Auro wagon was opportunistic, ceasing on the game trajectory that was running in his favour. These are the main points I'll be elaborating on.

FF is interacting with Dunn in a way that feels like he's trying to stay under the radar. It's what and who he's picking and choosing to respond to. You're not giving his town game enough credit if you think this is it.

Cheeky I don't know if you're looking for a formal invite for us to interact, cause I'm not sure why you are unable to ask me whatever you wanna talk about.

Like I said go read my iso and to come back with questions about my reads or anything you wanted to talk about, did I miss a response to that or are you still just trying to compare my play here to how I play as an SE in newbie games?

This is a very different game for many reasons. First of all I have 3 other players looking at the game and giving their takes and opinions on people so I dont have to do all my hunting here since I have some good fucking partners helping me there. Second, the last time i did a TM i played horribly and Im trying to not repeat that performance. Third, sue me If I wanna take this game a little more serious since im having some issues with inadequacy on site and maybe if I actually play well here and show people im not some chuckle fuck that ill feel better.

I can go back to shotgunning anything that moves if you really want me to, but I think that time is gone in this game and you missed it. We are here now and you wanna talk but whenever you talk to me it doesnt seem like you are talking about what you want to talk about.

I will hang Dann or Auro right now, CT maybe her arguments against me feel very contrived, but she claims a case is coming, so...

I dunno if you missed this specific post, but given she did make the beginnings of a case there, the meta bit is not the important thing to be focusing on. Not that I don't agree that you playing differently in Team Mafia than a newbie game doesn't make sense, it's just also pretty NAI.

Quote the multiple people explaining why it's anti-town.

People don't need to explain things to your liking for it to be true, your role pm dictated that long before you opened your mouth and let us all see which color you got as clearly as you did when you opened the pm.

I have two shoulder angels in this game, and the one that doesn't like you was put off by you in real-time this 1v1 argument. From a theory standpoint I side with you, and yet what made me facepalm was not that I felt Auro was being disingenuous, it was him being seemingly so genuinely obstinate for the umpteenth time despite me not agreeing. But the bigger issue is that I don't know if I see this as you genuinely becoming more convinced he's scum, or that that tracks onto how you came back to the thread afterward. Like, you've clarified you prefer Auro/Dann/Dong lynches. But your re-entrance is very...calm toward those people, main reaction to goings-on is that Dunn is the "sane one."

Anyway: These are my concerns about you, feel free to clear any of them up.

Let's go through FF's assertions/cases/reasoning from today, along with why they're bad.

• "Ceph was tring me" (2843)
  :
  Incorrect
  . Ceph's readslist in 2431 has FF only above Gob and Hopkirk, who is town.
  
• "Dunn was tring me" (2843)
  :
  Meh
  . Dunn has FF as part of a "don't want to lynch today" list in 1655. 2/3 of his scumreads flipped town. Dunn doesn't state an explicit TR on FF.
  
• "KittyMo was tring me" (2843)
  :
  Incorrect
  . Kitty's latest post about a direct read on FF is in 1153, spoilered above - a giant wall of concerns on FF, not a townread.
  
• "Auro wants to lynch me today" (2843, 2844)
  :
  Incorrect
  . I was arguing a hypothetical where I'm scum, that I'd NK Cheeky and then push FF. Not that I wanted to lynch FF.
  
• "Whoever would block my lynch is dead" (2844)
  :
  Incorrect
  . Because the NK'd slots didn't townread him. Even the lynched slots didn't - look at 2748, 2763 for example.
  
• "Auro wants to hear my teammate's opinions as a desperate out" (3023)
  :
  Incorrect
  . It's so that I can read FF better. I've detailed how it would in 3051. Asking for a teammate's opinion on something is not a legitimate basis for scumreading someone.

[BBmolla]

mafia isn't about being correct

[BBmolla]

like what the fuck is your point in 3055? if it's to look like a pretentious ass you're succeeding bruv

[BBmolla]

is the point that you think FF is lying about all those things intentionally?

[Auro]

To make FF re-evaluate.

[Auro]

is the point that you think FF is lying about all those things intentionally?

If he decides to be stubborn about these points... then yes?

[BBmolla]

sorry im just tired of people trying to outlogic people to "prove" they're scum

it's just nonsense

continue

[BBmolla]

okay i read this push

it blows

but feel free to continue

[Auro]

It's not "outlogicking". FF's being stubborn about a wrong read based on verifiably wrong premises.
If he continues to be wrong, and he's town, that's a noisy distraction and bad for town.
If he's town, I need him to discard this terrible push and actually focus on gamesolving; so I can townread him easier.

[CheekyTeeky]

Except im not going to ask him because weve done this dance once already and I dont wanna waste a song on my dance card with someone who stepped on my toes before.

This makes zero sense; he's literally your teammate, and the ask is very simple and very little time consuming.

It does make sense when you go to mom and ask permission and she says no because she knows all the specifics and decides no. Most kids will go to dad and will hope that mom hasnt talked to him yet and doesnt have all the info he would need to make a good decision. hell, he barely looked up over his paper, or away from the ball game to mumble yes, and then you go and jump off a bridge.

I'm locktowning you for this post.

[Auro]

I'm locktowning you for this post

What warrants a locktown in that post?

[CheekyTeeky]

I'm locktowning you for this post

What warrants a locktown in that post?

I know when my hubby is his town self. That's it in a single post.

[Auro]

Okay; can you explain how?

[CheekyTeeky]

How do you explain a soul-read? It's FF personality in a quick response that I think would be hard to fake on a back foot. I think it's been really hard to read him because at first he was high-efforting (TM effect should be a thing) which distorted my perception of him and then he went lurky because life, right. But that, that is what I've been looking for. What's his agenda here? Lynch you and then you flip town on his scumread ass and gg town right? Where does he go from here.?

[CheekyTeeky]

Who is gobbles voting?

[Auro]

Why would he take sole blame for my lynch when there are a lot of other people spouting equally bullshit reasons?

[CheekyTeeky]

VOTE: Dannfloor
Maybe this will make you lynch me quicker. My team is using a lot of ???????? And can you not and wtf type words at me so whatevs.

[Auro]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=200

Cheeky, read this and tell me if you notice a difference from their play this game?

[Auro]

My team is using a lot of ???????? And can you not and wtf type words at me so whatevs.

Is there any specific part of your activity that they're wtf'ing at?
Who would they rather you push, instead?

[CheekyTeeky]

Auro talk to someone else I honestly don't care.