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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:45 pm
by MathBlade
In post 3047, Aristeia wrote:if you lim him and he flips town bulletproof maybe we get a UB become bulletproof and soak up another nightkill
Bulletproof is limitless shots.
It doesn’t say 1 shot BP
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:45 pm
by Wallflower
I mean, let’s say that Enchant /was/ shot last night? If Enchant was an ascetic cop then they’d be dead. Which is also useless
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:46 pm
by Aristeia
In post 3049, implosion wrote:Aristeia wrote:bulletproof is literally useless
Aristeia wrote:scum win at parity
enchant will
never
clear himself
do you mean it's useless as in "if enchant is town, bp did nothing for us because of parity"? Because the setup starts in evens. Or do you mean it's useless at this point now that we're in odds?
Scum are never going to shoot Town Enchant who is bulletproof
so what is the utility of a Bulletproof Town EnchanT?
nothing
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:46 pm
by Aristeia
In post 3051, Wallflower wrote:I mean, let’s say that Enchant /was/ shot last night? If Enchant was an ascetic cop then they’d be dead. Which is also useless
no because then the slot is
guranteed town
and no longer in POE
and the UB becomes an Ascetic Cop and scum don't know where the UB is
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:47 pm
by implosion
i do not understand what you are trying to argue with that statement. the utility of bulletproof town enchant is that if the doc/rb pair wasn't taken, then enchant becomes softly clear. I don't want to assume that role pair was taken... hence my wanting a massclaim.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:47 pm
by implosion
(above is @ 3052)
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:47 pm
by Aristeia
a town enchant that is Ascetic cop and gets shot on N1 clears a slot from our POE, makes UB ascetic cop and this is way way better than Bulletproof Enchant being a ???? and we have to use an elimination on him eventually.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:47 pm
by MathBlade
In post 3052, Aristeia wrote: In post 3049, implosion wrote:Aristeia wrote:bulletproof is literally useless
Aristeia wrote:scum win at parity
enchant will
never
clear himself
do you mean it's useless as in "if enchant is town, bp did nothing for us because of parity"? Because the setup starts in evens. Or do you mean it's useless at this point now that we're in odds?
Scum are never going to shoot Town Enchant who is bulletproof
so what is the utility of a Bulletproof Town EnchanT?
nothing
Everything.
That means town enchant doesn’t get shot
Then we just need one other conf town to elo and we win assuming we get one more scum.
It’s a huge advantage
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:48 pm
by Gamma Emerald
In post 3033, MathBlade wrote: In post 3030, Aristeia wrote:I do not see a single reason why anyone should be townreading Enchant on play or mech
He’s the one who got shot when I flip town unless a doctor exists.
There is no guarantee of that.
If a doc flips green then Enchant scum can be considered not before
this is why I SR Ari
her argument that there must be a doc/rb are basically forced to happen because it's the only way her reads track at all
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:49 pm
by Roden
In post 3030, Aristeia wrote:I do not see a single reason why anyone should be townreading Enchant on play or mech
I don't town read him. I'm confirming his pick tonight, then deciding what to do from there.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:49 pm
by Wallflower
Like I agree on a theory level that I would not have picked BP in Enchant’s position but I know not everyone is going to do what I would do, and I don’t think it’s as nonsense as you say
(@ ari)
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:49 pm
by Gamma Emerald
In post 3038, Aristeia wrote: In post 3035, MathBlade wrote: In post 3031, Aristeia wrote: In post 3029, MathBlade wrote:That condition works for Ari because doc stays hidden
It works for everyone not wanting pass claim
And if scum Enchant (which I think is false) kills a town doctor, scum enchant loses inno.
we have 10 Town Players one of them picked doctor
why the !@#$ do we need a doctor to out to kill Enchant I have no clue
Because if a doctor isn’t flipped and green (not enough just to claim) then the most likely answer is scum shot Enchant.
your mech is just wrong sorry
we assume a doctor exists period
no your mech is wrong
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:49 pm
by Aristeia
yes gamma pls let everyone know you're not doctor by telling them you don't believe a doctor exists
this is great strategy
if we all say how we think a doctor doesnt exist then scum can by poe figure out who the doctor is
very good
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:49 pm
by implosion
In post 3056, Aristeia wrote:a town enchant that is Ascetic cop and gets shot on N1 clears a slot from our POE, makes UB ascetic cop and this is way way better than Bulletproof Enchant being a ???? and we have to use an elimination on him eventually.
What's the point you're trying to prove with this? That Enchant is scum bc taking bulletproof is bad town play?
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:50 pm
by MathBlade
In post 3058, Gamma Emerald wrote: In post 3033, MathBlade wrote: In post 3030, Aristeia wrote:I do not see a single reason why anyone should be townreading Enchant on play or mech
He’s the one who got shot when I flip town unless a doctor exists.
There is no guarantee of that.
If a doc flips green then Enchant scum can be considered not before
this is why I SR Ari
her argument that there must be a doc/rb are basically forced to happen because it's the only way her reads track at all
Yep which essentially means either A she’s screamed she’s doctor so loud scum shoot her or B she’s scum
I don’t really see any other option.
So if she is Doctor she needs to out her heal
And if not then Enchant is confirmed town with (or before) my flip and shut up about it
Let Roden check to remove ascetic doubts.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:50 pm
by Save The Dragons
why are we assuming optimal plays
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:51 pm
by Wallflower
Idk why we’re operating on the assumption that enchant as town would do what Ari would do
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:51 pm
by Wallflower
Yes exactly
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:52 pm
by MathBlade
We’re not assuming optimal plays
Enchant claimed BP
By definition not ascetic
Scum shot Enchant theory being tested.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:52 pm
by Aristeia
if you let people get away with plays that favor scum
they will always do them when they are scum
forcing scum to play in a protown fashion is basic strategy
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:52 pm
by MathBlade
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:52 pm
by implosion
I'm like, philosophically happy to support an Enchant lim but I think a math lim is better play right now and I don't really understand the arguments here beyond like "there's no universe where town Enchant takes bp". And I just, don't agree with that statement, I think it's awful play for myriad reasons (if you're not gonna take ascetic cop, leave it for someone else, and if you're gonna take bp, then actually play the damn game and let people develop townreads on you). But I don't claim to know how Enchant town views mafia games. My guess was that he'd take a vig role and not anything from the ascetic cop pair, tbh.
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:53 pm
by Aristeia
it is so so so so so scumsiding to pick bulletproof instead of ascetic i cant believe you guys are seriously considering letting Enchant get away with this
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:53 pm
by MathBlade
In post 3069, Aristeia wrote:if you let people get away with plays that favor scum
they will always do them when they are scum
forcing scum to play in a protown fashion is basic strategy
This doesn’t favor scum though.
If there wasn’t a missing kill this would be an entirely different conversation.
But there is.
And if I as a VT die to provide unkillable conf town
You bet your butt I take it
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:53 pm
by implosion
In post 3069, Aristeia wrote:if you let people get away with plays that favor scum
they will always do them when they are scum
forcing scum to play in a protown fashion is basic strategy
This sounds like playing in a meta-optimal way to optimize for long-term town win rates instead of playing to optimize for our win rate in this game.