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[Dwlee99]

I mean the other part of that is that if Nero is right about his reason for scumreading Nom then Nom was trying to set me up to look scummy. If Nero was right for the wrong reasons then my defense just makes sense there (I think this is the case, cause I still don't think Nom was being nefarious in asking me to vote Rathe, and also he wasn't trying to get people off Peta for being his buddy because Peta flipped town).

If you think Anya is town and I'm evil you'll have to figure out why I spent all of yesterday saying Anya was a bad elimination and then randomly wagoned Osuka.

What if I think Anya is scum and you're not?

I mean this is possible sure.

[Andresvmb]

STD is a bad vote. Sure nobody needs to listen to me but I really doubt it’ll flip Scum. Titus or DotW or T3 seem like vastly superior choices to me. But again, I need to finish reading. Unfortunately I have work to do.

What makes him town?
In one or 2 sentences.

The self-meta mostly. I buy it. I would argue I’ve experienced it too to some extent.

[Andresvmb]

I mean the other part of that is that if Nero is right about his reason for scumreading Nom then Nom was trying to set me up to look scummy. If Nero was right for the wrong reasons then my defense just makes sense there (I think this is the case, cause I still don't think Nom was being nefarious in asking me to vote Rathe, and also he wasn't trying to get people off Peta for being his buddy because Peta flipped town).

If you think Anya is town and I'm evil you'll have to figure out why I spent all of yesterday saying Anya was a bad elimination and then randomly wagoned Osuka.

What if I think Anya is scum and you're not?

I mean this is possible sure.

Yeah I totally agree that Town have screwed up and defended incorrectly and the Scum have taken advantage. Hell, I’m probably a slight victim of this too. Which is why I am mostly trying to go about this by trying to clear the players I think wouldn’t have behaved the way that they did if they were Scum. osuka is easier to bus because they’re a Goon. If the Scum are in a bad spot and they need to change up their position, then you consider stuff like that. The Scum surely did not want to lose their Jailkeeper D1. Like that’s a given. No one is going to bus there. Which is why Rathe’s aggressive vote where they accuse nom3 of engaging in theater is in my mind unlikely to come from a Partner for example.

[T3]

Andres stop towntelling you're ruining my solve >:\

[VFP]

STD is a bad vote. Sure nobody needs to listen to me but I really doubt it’ll flip Scum. Titus or DotW or T3 seem like vastly superior choices to me. But again, I need to finish reading. Unfortunately I have work to do.

What makes him town?
In one or 2 sentences.

The self-meta mostly. I buy it. I would argue I’ve experienced it too to some extent.

Where have you experienced it?

[Andresvmb]

The subtle defending of nom3 from Titus in a lot of different places D1? Now that’s a huge red flag.

I just want someone else to read it and tell me if I’m being stupid. And I’ll keep reading and maybe I’ll have some more takes and we can narrow things further. And then if you choose to execute me at that stage so be it then you can trust my POV.

[Andresvmb]

STD is a bad vote. Sure nobody needs to listen to me but I really doubt it’ll flip Scum. Titus or DotW or T3 seem like vastly superior choices to me. But again, I need to finish reading. Unfortunately I have work to do.

What makes him town?
In one or 2 sentences.

The self-meta mostly. I buy it. I would argue I’ve experienced it too to some extent.

Where have you experienced it?

STD and I just finished an ELo were I think STD succumbed to a read that they dragged for too long. I thing that if STD had trusted me (hard to do in that game probably), and had read my posts carefully then, I think we could have won. But I don’t fault them for that too much, I think other factors contributed much more, but I do believe that STD was perhaps a bit lazy at the end if I may say so.

[Dwlee99]

If Titus is a babysitter enabler then she isn't evil imo. It's possible that scum were informed of the babysitter which led to her claiming it, but I'm not sure about it. If someone's a role cop/cop I would like them to check Titus for exactly that reason.

[Andresvmb]

But I don’t fault them for that too much, I think other factors contributed much more, but I do believe that STD was perhaps a bit lazy at the end if I may say so.

Here:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12832536

[Andresvmb]

If Titus is a babysitter enabler then she isn't evil imo. It's possible that scum were informed of the babysitter which led to her claiming it, but I'm not sure about it. If someone's a role cop/cop I would like them to check Titus for exactly that reason.

I don’t know why you would clear Titus entirely based on mechanics when play should clearly trump that. This conversation has clearly been had already.

[VFP]

The subtle defending of nom3 from Titus in a lot of different places D1? Now that’s a huge red flag.

I just want someone else to read it and tell me if I’m being stupid. And I’ll keep reading and maybe I’ll have some more takes and we can narrow things further. And then if you choose to execute me at that stage so be it then you can trust my POV.

What posts?
I've seen some I didn't like look back through but not to do with me Nom.

I can see the budding though, plus having Osuka and Nom as town.

[Andresvmb]

Can someone explain the nom wagon because I don't get it at all?

why don't you tell us instead why nom is a bad wagon.

Nom's active. I don't see anything awkward or scummy. That's enough on D1 to ask why there's a wagon. The wagon's too large to buy that it's all scum countering petapan so I am seeking to understand.

This isn’t even that subtle.

[Andresvmb]

Is the argument that nomnom is chainsawing for peta?

sorta. Though nom isn't attacking any of petas voters (except maybe DW). It's mostly that he made a big deal over getting t3 and DW to vote Rathe and now he's arguing that DW is scum for abandoning the 1v1 with peta and the whole thing just feels planed and manipulated to me. "here let me dangle this other scum read in front oh you." "oh, you actually took the bait, and you're scummy for it!"

though tbf I did accuse him of trying to break up the peta wagon by getting a Rathe wagon going.

This sounds like no matter what nomnom did, you would have found it scummy.

Perhaps you're thinking he's scummy independent of the wagon motions?

(We've just crossed into bizarro world btw.)

Or this too.

[Dwlee99]

If Titus is a babysitter enabler then she isn't evil imo. It's possible that scum were informed of the babysitter which led to her claiming it, but I'm not sure about it. If someone's a role cop/cop I would like them to check Titus for exactly that reason.

I don’t know why you would clear Titus entirely based on mechanics when play should clearly trump that. This conversation has clearly been had already.

Not entirely, just saying babysitter enabler doesn't make sense as a scum role in this setup. It's the only thing that makes me not want to throw the slot into the stratosphere so maybe it is bad but I believe in using mechanics.

[T3]

The babysitter enabler dying really puts scum in a bad spot

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think of Vigilante’s as roles that help the Town but that’s my own personal bias. I see them as negative influence. Most players just aren’t particularly good. So Vigilante’s will more often than not just shoot Town.

[VFP]

I mean, Andre has a fair point though.
Those are soft defends on Nom.

Plus the fact Titus hasn't really done much outside of claim scum in SSBM or Anya.

[VFP]

Anya - Null started town
T3 - Only became active after my vla, gtmh town
Save The Dragons - null
Derek12 - lean scum due to no posts
Dwlee99 - I felt they were scum at first, now I am iffy. Would flip for VCA but not strong.
Dragon of the West - Town
Rathe - Would compromise here
ssbm_Kyouko - hasn't done anything since hood discussion, null
Andresvmb - What I did see I liked
Dunnstral - I don't recall him negatively. He did have posts on my vla
nomnomnom, replacing LordEvan - Raging town
DrippingGoofball - Town
Titus - Town
Nero Cain - Needs a bullet to the head
VFP, replacing hugsandchocolate - Moderate town
osuka - moderate town
petapan - I felt his intro was super scummy but him standing up to Nero is super townie

Osuka as town here.
Nom as nearly lock town here.

[VFP]

Because it sprang up only after Chaos did and was a counter.

ok, who are the scum pushing a Dunn wagon?

I'd say STD and or Vax but my theory existed before they voted and I townread the people voting before them so there's a bit of cogdis there.

This is odd to go from nearly lock town to scum bussing with 0 mention of Vax before this.

[Dwlee99]

I don’t think of Vigilante’s as roles that help the Town but that’s my own personal bias. I see them as negative influence. Most players just aren’t particularly good. So Vigilante’s will more often than not just shoot Town.

I think vigilante is a very strong role unless gated less than 2-shot. If it is 1-shot, it is essentially a delayed innocent child unless an SK could be in the game.

[VFP]

Ah actually, maybe osuka on a good day. Which is why I asked them to provide their thoughts. But they haven’t really tried to solve too hard and I’m somewhat skeptical there still.

Osaka might be scum. They might have site flaked.

[Dwlee99]

Ah actually, maybe osuka on a good day. Which is why I asked them to provide their thoughts. But they haven’t really tried to solve too hard and I’m somewhat skeptical there still.

Osaka might be scum. They might have site flaked.

This kind of reads like Osuka wasn't posting in the PT

[VFP]

So we have to remember that Vax was informed.
And the informed roles are a lot more unique from Gypyx games.

[Dwlee99]

It's possible that scum were informed of the babysitter

Thoughts on this VFP?

[VFP]

Ah actually, maybe osuka on a good day. Which is why I asked them to provide their thoughts. But they haven’t really tried to solve too hard and I’m somewhat skeptical there still.

Osaka might be scum. They might have site flaked.

This kind of reads like Osuka wasn't posting in the PT

I get that.
But it also looks like pre emptive scum read encase anyone pushes Osuka who hasn't posted.