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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:28 am
by tictac
Boils down to thinking that the reasons people scumread her for are crap.
When lots of people are attacking someone for things that can be more easily explained by being new, that says 'lynchbait' to me.
I'll make an list for ya, when I'm done catching up.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:29 am
by itlepip
yeah just realized that the fruit vendor isn't automatically weak.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:32 am
by hiplop
↑ itlepip wrote:fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...
hmmm?
vote the pipers plz they make enough noise you dont need to
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:32 am
by tictac
↑ The Pied Piper wrote:And you do realize that people use all types of pushes to get their preferred lynches through and that the more emotional methods are hints to an emotional investment in the push and thus are more likely to come from town?
That has not been my experience.
I've seen it used for manipulation way more often.
Check out ckd from day 2 onwards here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65168
He fooled me. Never again.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:34 am
by Friendless Seniors
↑ hiplop wrote: ↑ itlepip wrote:fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...
hmmm?
vote the pipers plz they make enough noise you dont need to
I CANT DO IT, I CANT DO IT
THATS NOT ME
I'M A LOSER, IM A COWARD
IM A CHICKEN DONT YOU SEEEEEEEEE
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:33 am
by pistachi0n
↑ Mirhawk wrote:At this point I'm waiting for Pistachion to confirm that she has a nonstandard role, but if she doesn't I have no idea whats going on.
Sorry, I didn't know there was anything I hadn't confirmed already. I'm a town innocent child miller. That's it.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:33 am
by Malakittens
↑ tictac wrote:
Boils down to thinking that the reasons people scumread her for are crap.
When lots of people are attacking someone for things that can be more easily explained by being new, that says 'lynchbait' to me.
I'll make an list for ya, when I'm done catching up.
Tbh sky bird doesn't scream new though. She's been playing for like almost two years so I think we have a different definition of new
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:35 am
by Malakittens
↑ itlepip wrote:yeah just realized that the fruit vendor isn't automatically weak.
Was about to say.
Also fruit vendor doesn't mean automatically a town role either so
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:35 am
by Mirhawk
I have a flip flop read on him.
Overall I'd say it's a light scumread, but I'm not all that convinced in the accuracy of it.
I still stand by the bit I originally scumread him for as I usually view indirect pushing of wagons as an explicitly scummy activity. But apparently this sort of attitude of asking leading questions and not pushing hard is kinda Dave's thing.
He's not really scumhunting, and he's not really pushing the reads he has, but again that's apparently not unusual either.
He has the occasional post that looks a little bad, but they feel townish mostly.
People keep saying that the things I was scumreading him for aren't indicative for him so I don't know.
↑ itlepip wrote:fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...
↑ itlepip wrote:yeah just realized that the fruit vendor isn't automatically weak.
Man, I hadn't thought of weak fruit vendors as even being a thing.
That being said, if you want a reason to tie the two of us together I would start with the fact I've spent the entire game townreading him for reasons that amount to "gut".
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:37 am
by Malakittens
...
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:40 am
by Marquis
↑ Malakittens wrote: ↑ tictac wrote:
Boils down to thinking that the reasons people scumread her for are crap.
When lots of people are attacking someone for things that can be more easily explained by being new, that says 'lynchbait' to me.
I'll make an list for ya, when I'm done catching up.
Tbh sky bird doesn't scream new though. She's been playing for like almost two years so I think we have a different definition of new
I'll get to everything else later, but this^. I've played with her multiple times since 2014, and her play right now is like she's regressed to the very beginning of that. It's shallow for what she's actually capable of as town.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Even back then, while asking lots of questions, she's very open with reads and how those questions affect things. There's at least some followup. Her play here looks like a poor imitation of that.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:40 am
by itlepip
↑ Mirhawk wrote:Why haven't you voted Axel yet?
If you don't intend to vote him why do you keep making sidelong comments on his wagon?
I don't really think "this is what I do" is a very good justification.
↑ Mirhawk wrote:/lawls
Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.
Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.
↑ Mirhawk wrote:Unvote
Vote: Pistachio
Eh, what the hell.
↑ Mirhawk wrote:There's a lot to respond to here so I'm likely going to make several posts.
First off I promised to point out why I think dav's scum.
First off read his iso. Everything until he places his first vote is sidelong comments on other wagons. Half of that is throwing shade with no votes cast.
His first vote (which is not till page nine) is for what precisely? Immediately after placing it he goes back to asking pointless questions. He makes literally zero effort to convince a single person that I'm scum.
I tried to question him on the vote but then he disappeared until after that miller business at which point he was no longer interested in discussing his earlier case.
He's been sitting on me since post 213, but since then has only mentioned me once.
He didn't even call me scum in that post, rather saying I could be town or scum. :neutral:
What's he doing now? Still making sidelong comments without seemingly looking for scum at all.
He's being townread for what precisely?
↑ Mirhawk wrote: ↑ pistachi0n wrote:I'm going to jump on the Mirhawk wagon.
I was reluctant because I thought some of his earliest posts had good content and I had mixed feelings about his reaction to Ami's gambit. I don't like his recent posts, though:
↑ Mirhawk wrote:First off I promised to point out why I think dav's scum.
First off read his iso. Everything until he places his first vote is sidelong comments on other wagons. Half of that is throwing shade with no votes cast.
This is a reach, it also describes the playstyle of Mirhawk himself--he's been making a lot of comments on other wagons.
852 reads like he's trying to get credit for being skeptical/contrarian without backing it up at all.
re
858 why is it horseshit? The post he's responding to is spot-on. And instead of defending himself, he dismisses it.
A lot of his reactions to statements he disagrees with are just "no." Drive by sniping is right.
↑ Mirhawk wrote:Ami's only in the pool because I'm paranoid about the miller gambit. I actually find her play kind of town.
?????
You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet. Despite the effort into making the post it feels super lazy as well. I don't think you looked very closely at the posts I was responding to, which if you had a problem with my responses you should have.
Me and Dav's playstyles are pretty different seeing as how I've been calling half the town scum, whereas Dav still hasn't gotten around to calling me scum despite voting me all game. Lots of people have commented on multiple wagons, does that mean we all have the same playstyle? I feel like you only brought this up to pad your case.
How could I get town credit for
852? In order to get credit for being skeptical of someones opinion I would need the subject of that opinion to die and flip. If you'd actually bothered reading the post I was complaining about you would have known that piper was talking about me. Was my plan to get town credit after I was dead or something?
I also would have assumed you would notice that TWL's post that
858 is talking about my early game. I mean are actually agreeing that my early interactions with Dav were a drive by? Or that despite the fact that it was a drive by they still managed to be really good questions? Or that despite the fact that they were really good questions, they weren't connected to the game? You tried to twist this into being about my later posts, and all the power to you on that. But my problem was the early game bit.
I also note that despite saying you're jumping on my wagon, you.... didn't?
↑ Mirhawk wrote: ↑ davesaz wrote: ↑ davesaz wrote:
In separate news, I'm not seeing anything town from Dramonic. Is this normal for him?
Repeating question since I didn't see much response to it. I think Dramonic is scum flying under the radar, but I don't know if this is normal for him.
Scum reads with no apparent reasons, avoiding big wagons, not addressing the topics of the day -> classic active lurking scum mode, IMO.
VOTE: Dramonic
Please discuss.
Drams fine.
All the things you're accusing him of are things town do too.
↑ Mirhawk wrote: ↑ podoboq wrote:It definitely depends on how they presented their argument for not lynching. In Mirhawk's case, there's a legitimate fear that it comes from knowledge town doesn't have. In that case, definitely not giving towncred. There's not a binary answer to this.
OMFG this is so stupid.
I don't care if you think I'm scum because my vote switch sounded fake or contrived.
But every person who thinks there was some kind of information scum would have that town wouldn't in this situation is talking out of their ass.
Unvote
This is obviously not happening.
I'm not inclined to believe that replacing out is alignment indicative, though ironically enough in the last three games I've played there have been six scum replace outs.
↑ Mirhawk wrote: ↑ Cerberus v666 wrote:The accusation that she's voting a certain way specifically to ensure the skybird wagon doesn't have more votes than the FS wagon is dumb. Neither wagon has enough votes for them to be at a tipping point, and voting in that fashion isn't alignment indicative. I'd be more inclined to think that if she has indicated a greater desire to lynch you than FS(which I dont' think she has) but she is voting FS, it's to see how people deal with the situation with the various wagons.
She's stated that she will switch to my wagon if it's bigger, and it is. In fact if she switched from seniors wagon to mine it would be three votes higher than seniors, which is a significant amount.
However if she does switch that would make Skybird's wagon bigger than seniors, which is a problem for her since she's suggesting that the only two viable wagons are Seniors and Mine.
Don't get me wrong I have an ulterior motive here too. I don't want to be lynched, and I don't think Seniors is scum, so I'm against discluding Skybirds wagon from contention.
↑ Cerberus v666 wrote:
For example, before you made that accusation, i was considering voting skybird SOLELY to see who moved where in response to skybirds wagon taking the lead...but that particular ploy has lost it's value given that you just made scum more wary of individuals watching wagon movements in this situation for that exact reason.
Sorry?
↑ Mirhawk wrote:Unvote
Vote: Sircakez
I was thinking this couldn't happen, but now I'm thinking maybe I was wrong.
I just got back from the hockey game. 5-0, it was brutal.
↑ Mirhawk wrote:@Podo
Cakes is scum because he isn't looking for scum, rather he's coasting and has been doing so for most of the game.
In the last game I played with him (
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594) he actively scumhunted constantly, in this one he vote parked on me over a thousand posts ago and hasn't done much of anything since.
How much time does he spend pushing the scumread he's had all game? Almost none. He doesn't analyze any of my posts and the extent of him pushing my wagon consists of him occasionally reminding people that he thinks I'm scum.
Also his reaction to Rangers readslist was outrageously fake.
That's why I'm voting for him at least. Not really sure as to the reasons for the other ones.
↑ Mirhawk wrote: ↑ Amihan wrote:SirCakez is definitely town.
What? Hell no.
He parked on the easiest wagon that required the least justification and never left.
Seriously, go read his ISO. Try to find justification for his vote. When I pressed him on it he offered up some gibberish reasons, then stopped responding to me.
There's lots going on in town. There's no way that he hasn't found anything stronger than that in all this time. It's not like he isn't here, he's had a hundred posts since then.
↑ Mirhawk wrote: ↑ SirCakez wrote:Mirhawk being a hard Ranger pusher but being so hesitant to join that wagon also gives me pause.
I'm scum so me not voting for her makes her town? Am I reading this right?
Also didn't you just accuse me of moving my vote around too easily?
I thought you were townreading him because scum wig vendors are very rare.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:41 am
by Mirhawk
↑ tictac wrote: ↑ The Pied Piper wrote:And you do realize that people use all types of pushes to get their preferred lynches through and that the more emotional methods are hints to an emotional investment in the push and thus are more likely to come from town?
That has not been my experience.
I've seen it used for manipulation way more often.
Check out ckd from day 2 onwards here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65168
He fooled me. Never again.
Manipulation isn't necessarily a scumtell though.
Town do it all the time to get their preferred lynches. I still think Ranger attempted to covertly torpedo Skybird's wagon yesterday, and she was town.
Who are we even talking about.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:42 am
by itlepip
let my iso slip there
Why did you stop having Dav being obvScum?
Pedit: holy shit yes manipulation is a scum tell, just because some town do it doesn't make it NAI, come on now.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:44 am
by The Pied Piper
I feel like she's mostly playing by scanning the thread for mentions of her own name.
Her first serious vote is in
1444 on someone she calls a scumlean not a scumread.
1499 is really sticking out to me because this was 5 days or so before the end of the day phase so this was before the deadline scramble, long before, and friendless seniors asks her why she votes for them instead of ranger, a false dichotomy, but she doesn't call it out as such. why are those the only two options? (and this is a tangent but why is seniors responding to a post in which she says she's townreading ranger and scumleaning them to ask her why she's voting them instead of ranger?)
2369 ew.
It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in
2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.
Her reads reversal on tictac in
2599 is also disturbing because she'd previously been defending tictac for more or less the same reasons that she's now scumreading him.
I think Marquis and/or Nacho complained about this too, but I don't think any of the points in
2659 that she brings up about Mirhawk have anything to do with Mirhawk's alignment. She tells us she's going back and forth but she doesn't show us, or rather what she shows us doesn't look like a genuine back and forth.
↑ Skybird wrote:After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.
Skybird, have you ever seen a situation in a game of mafia where a bad guy voted one of his scumfriends?
In
2913, she accuses Cakez of confbiasing but that's a townthing. Town confbias, scum misrep.
2925 I don't understand what podo agreeing with marquis has to do with mirhawk agreeing with cakez. I feel like she's probably making a deeper point than "why is it wrong for me to agree with somebody, you agreed with somebody too" but I'm not sure what it is.
Mirhawk is the only slot she has a reads progression on. She asks a lot of questions of people (mostly denoted with a -), but the answers don't seem to affect her reads at all (denoted with a ++, --, or ==).
pedit: so many pedits T.T
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:46 am
by Mirhawk
Whats the deal with all those quotes?
Also, no I've been calling him town for pretty much the entire game. He only claimed at the end of day one.
pedit
whoops lol
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:48 am
by Malakittens
VOTE: Mirhawk [/b]
Half of wants to not do it but whatever. /:
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:50 am
by Mirhawk
When precisely, I'm not sure.
There was never a moment when I decided he was no longer scummy. It was more like I pursued other scumreads for so long that I eventually stopped really thinking about him as one.
Also, I've seen manipulative shit from lots of town players all the friggin time. Marquis fakeclaimed miller yesterday for lol's and reactions.
Also If that's what Pistachion's role name is then I have literally no idea what went down with Ogre's night action.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:50 am
by Mirhawk
No mala, votefail!
In so many ways too!
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:56 am
by Malakittens
Yeah I'll pick it up later. Possibly going to die because I got a blue ribbon with whipped cream at Applebee's and now I'm full and I want a nap and I got a test at 6 ):
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:02 am
by Marquis
↑ Skybird wrote: ↑ davesaz wrote:Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?
Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:
My strongest townread is Tammy. I'm feeling pretty confident she is town. Spiffah is also pretty town.
I'm leaning town on Dramonic. He's playing like he did in the last game I was in with him. I'm also leaning town on you.
I'm not sure about Beeboy. He's making a lot of noise and I don't see his push on FS. But maybe I'm missing something that FS has did that makes him scummy. FS is on my ISO list.
I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.
I have a lot of null reads because they haven't posted or what they posted didn't make a big impression on me.
p-edit: TWL, what am I missing? Ami's post struck me as weird. Why does it not bother you?
↑ Skybird wrote: ↑ Mirhawk wrote: ↑ Skybird wrote:I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.
In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.
The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.
I comment on what I see and in some instances who I know.
For example, Tammy. I have played with her a few times and I feel this is her town game. Same with Spiffeh.
I have also played with SirCakez before and I scum read him for his posting and he wasn't scum. :( I am being cautious about sorting him because I don't want to make that mistake again. I don't have an organized way I go through the player list and comment on people.
Why do you feel some people are associated together?
Noting by way of Plotinus' compilation post that Skybird's readslist-esque posts oddly associate Spiffeh and Tammy prior to their death whereas the other positions are spread out. Probably doesn't mean anything on a large scale but if Skybird flips scum it's notable that scum probably noticed the lovers' associations early on.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:04 am
by tictac
↑ podoboq wrote:I think Mirhawk's recent line of questioning on Cakez is completely hollow.
What do ya think of my line?
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:07 am
by Mirhawk
↑ tictac wrote: ↑ podoboq wrote:I think Mirhawk's recent line of questioning on Cakez is completely hollow.
What do ya think of my line?
Forgot Podo said this.
I'm going to admit I'm super convinced Cakez is scum and I'm pushing him more or less on everything I can.
Some of it is kind of stupid.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:08 am
by Mirhawk
I think the core of my case is solid, but apparently nobody gives a shit about that.
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:10 am
by Mirhawk
↑ Marquis wrote:Noting by way of Plotinus' compilation post that Skybird's readslist-esque posts oddly associate Spiffeh and Tammy prior to their death whereas the other positions are spread out. Probably doesn't mean anything on a large scale but if Skybird flips scum it's notable that scum probably noticed the lovers' associations early on.
I've never played with lovers before, but I was under the impression that they didn't know who each other were.