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In post 31070, Iecerint wrote:es, and MF were buffed, I guess.

Actually, she was touched in one of the last few patches I believe - she's now so mana dependent that she needs to either be laning with soraka or take massive risks so she can use spellshield whenever it's off cooldown.

The problem with leaving Sivir at pre-nerf values is she could relatively easily win lane in many matchups before and follow up with a godlike ultimate that meant your team didn't need a hard engage. Many of her lane matchups are now skillbased (based around baiting out her spellshield so she can't stay in lane and use abilities to trade).

EDIT: Patch 4.4 - maybe not the second half of the split, but her usage dropped off here.

Champion tiers are generally meaningless - outside of high level play, playing a champion that you are comfortable playing and know how to play is always better than picking something that's theoretically stronger but you don't have a fucking clue how to play.

Ah, yeah, I remember reading that now. Thanks, ani.

In post 31076, Bella wrote:Champion tiers are generally meaningless - outside of high level play, playing a champion that you are comfortable playing and know how to play is always better than picking something that's theoretically stronger but you don't have a fucking clue how to play.

100% Agreed - all matchups are skill based to some extent (it's super easy to beat a Lucian who doesn't use his passive correctly, for example).

EDIT: No problem, Iece.

Tier lists assume equal skill between opposing players. Some champs are currently stronger than others. Nothing wrong with admitting that.

It would probably be more helpful if they were broken down a bit more like Stonewall does with his jungle tier lists. You could list things like range, escapability, waveclear, etc.

I think Jinx, Draven, Miss Fortune, and Lucian are the best carries in the game. Not really much for tiering out the rest, but I think those are the cream of the crop. I think Caitlyn is "best of the rest" because of how safe she is. I don't think Ashe is as bad as people think she is. I don't think Corki is as bad as people think he is. I think Twitch is currently overrated. I think Quinn is hated on more than her underpowered contemporaries because she lacks the carry power of said contempories but she smokes them in lane. I also believe that ADC is the most balanced role at the moment.

In post 31079, Papa Zito wrote:Tier lists assume equal skill between opposing players. Some champs are currently stronger than others. Nothing wrong with admitting that.

It would probably be more helpful if they were broken down a bit more like Stonewall does with his jungle tier lists. You could list things like range, escapability, waveclear, etc.

Tier Lists assume equal skill at every champion, so they are useless because such a state does not exist.

While it's true that people are generally better at champs they play more, people severely undervalue lateral skillsets between champs/overvalue how "unique" most champs are.

In post 31076, Bella wrote:Champion tiers are generally meaningless - outside of high level play, playing a champion that you are comfortable playing and know how to play is always better than picking something that's theoretically stronger but you don't have a fucking clue how to play.

Honestly, I disagree with this to an extent, especially if a strong champion is also fairly medium-easy to pick up. Yes, a lot of people will tell you to stick to "your comfort picks", but at the end of the day, some champions are indeed stronger. If you have the macro skills, you don't necessarily need the best micro skills with a particular champion to win games.

People honestly need to remember that you don't even need to be GOOD at a champion to gain elo, you need to be good at macro skills. All you need to do is play champions with a) a strong aoe and b) the ability to create high pressure early game. Now b is very easy to fill if you're playing a jungler (and mid lane to a lesser extent). For example, I was able to win games with wukong jungle a few months back before his nerfs not particularly because I was comfortable with him at all. In fact I basically had just picked him up for the first time. BUT, he was an extremely strong champion at that time, combine that with the fact that he had nice ganks, and had an awesome team fight aoe, and you have a recipe to winning without really having to be good at the CHAMPION, more good with macro skills.

Right now, I'm something like 45-14 with soraka mid and was able to carry from s1 to g3. You have to understand theoretically how she works, not necessarily her micro skills. For example, she has a strong sustaining lane that is able to push another champion into tower. This does a few things. It a) denies them farm b) denies them the ability to roam and c) they can skill take huge harass under tower. Now, what is the obvious thing to point out? You are very susceptible to ganks. But if you have the macro skills, you can honestly turn that to a point if your favor. First, you have to understand the 2v2 matchups with junglers/mid laners. If you and your jungler would win a 2v2, you simply just tell your jungler to be near mid lane around 3:00 to counter gank, because you KNOW you're getting ganked because you're pushed to the enemy tower. If you know you and your jungler can't win a 2v2, then you just ward, and tell the jungler to go put pressure on the rest of the map while their jungler camps you, and all you have to do is be able to ward well, and pay attention to how their midlaner is reacting. For example I played a lissandra yesterday who would always E when her jungler was about to gank. All I would then do is just silence her so she can't ult or slow me, then just walk back... Now, soraka also has a very strong team fight. If you're going 9/21/0 with her, and building tanky APish items because she doesn't scale well with ap, then you're basically fulfilling 3 roles during team fights. Your acting like a tank that's soaking up damage, you're dishing out damage with Q, and you're acting like a support who can heal a crapload and silence priority targets.

This feels like when I play in bronze and people google counters to the enemy lane and just play them instead of someone they know.

I often google counters to the enemy lane and then play someone I know.

"Oh so this champ counters them by doing this? Eh, I can do that with someone else"

#Malzaharcounterseverybody

I think more important than working all champs into a tier list is being able to identify champs that are currently strong, and more importantly, WHY they are strong.

A perfect example of this is Soraka Mid. Soraka mid is currently strong (and being nerfed due to it) for two main reasons. One, Soraka mid is incredibly stifling to the the lane. There is not much you can do against her, you are relegated to pushing back and trying to sneak out to gank. Outside of a heavy cc gank and a little bit of luck, you won't be killing her. Secondly and much more importantly, the champion's kit allows a lesser skilled player to play at a higher level. Think about this for a second. Playing Soraka mid allows you safe cs, easy harass, and safe positive trading- things a low mmr player will struggle with. By picking Soraka mid, you are elevating your own game level by being empowered to play "correctly", that is, forcing positive trades and csing well. A bronze player may be able to lane with gold effectiveness since Soraka's kit is basically "free lane". This makes Soraka mid a giant equalizer, as a horrible Soraka can stalemate a good but not great Leblanc.

The problems you run into are comp-related, since Soraka is not a burst dps or a tank and has no cc outside of her silence, which is soft cc. Soraka's Wish gives a huge swing in hp and is very valuable utility, but it's not damage, and damage is what ultimately wins fights. You may find yourself in a situation where you just can't put out enough damage, and carries have reached critical mass so there's no healing through it.

A highly skilled mid player is also not gaining much by picking Soraka mid, since they can already trade and cs in the standard midlane. In their hands, Soraka mid becomes the highest form of defense, but sacrifices the burst and reach of competitive mids, forcing you into a "support mid" scenario. This isn't automatically a bad thing, if you have other strong carries on your team and the team focus is defending them and letting them do the heavy lifting.
Your doomsday scenario being "went even in lane and am a giant aoe/heal bot" is a pretty high floor.

I'd recommend using this pick to learn mid, to get into the practice of good mid habits, csing safely, learning prime harass opportunities, and forcing positive trades. Think of it like training wheels. Once you get the hang of it, start shifting your focus from utility to damage on the sliding scale of midlane.

There's always going to be cheese and fotm, learn WHY it works and you learn how to counter it. Play around it or play it yourself, and be ready to adapt when the patch hits.

In post 31086, lil g wrote:There's always going to be cheese and fotm, learn WHY it works and you learn how to counter it.

It just comes down to learn why it works, have the macro skills, and start playing it (which I honestly recommend as the easier to learning to counter it, and MUCH more effective)

Especially that 1-2 week period after a patch hits, when most people haven't jumped on the OP ones and there isn't a million threads on GD of "x is OP nerf!!!!", if you're able to adapt fast enough, then you basically gain free elo.

RE: Soraka. It's the exact reason I tell my jungler/top laner to go damage. Like once I had something like a Naut jungle and a malphite top, and we just had... nothing. But with the feral flare junglers, soraka just allows them to live much longer in team fights and continue to destroy the other team, while also lowering mr with her q, and silencing priority targets.

I don't see what the big deal about Soraka mid is. She pushes the lane, her burst is poor, she's immobile. It's easy to see how to play around that.

This is not to say that she is weak (she's great); just that I don't think she lacks counterplay. SAD points out good ways to mitigate her vulnerabilities, but they apply to every champion in the game (i.e., buy wards, communicate with your jungler).

Kayle has some of the same strengths (easy harass, easy cs, no skillshots) and weaknesses (well, she also pushes the lane, at least), but she gets to have burst and mobility, too.

I'd be OK with a change to Starcall that makes it more support-y, though. I think this is what they hinted they would do.

In post 31088, Iecerint wrote:I don't see what the big deal about Soraka mid is. She pushes the lane, her burst is poor, she's immobile.

The fact that at the 20 min mark their midlaner is down like 50cs, has 0 kills because they can't kill you and can't roam, and is probably down a level or two from how much they had to go back to base. Not to mention you can gain assists from lanes with your ult, plus your jungler is helping other lanes get fed while their jungler is busy camping mid.

Plus the HUGE one is keeping your team alive, especially the damage dealers. You don't really need damage yourself when you have a shyvanna, nocturne, and twitch ripping through the enemy team while you stand there q a few times, maybe silence once or twice, and heal everyone so they don't die.

tl;dr basically at the late game mid soraka does the same thing as support soraka. Except she made the other midlaner underfarmed and underfed, allowed your jungler to get other lanes fed, and has more tankiness and a bit more damage/healing because you got cs.

edit: kayle is also really really strong. the problem with her is she's just way too squishy for my liking. and her ult is basically "sacrifice yourself to save the adc or sacrifice the adc you save yourself", at least imo. Don't really know much about her other than yeah, she is really also strong.

I am not saying "I do not understand why Soraka is a strong mid pick." She is a strong mid pick. I am saying "I do not think that Soraka is strong in a way that you can't deal with."

Compared to other midlaners, I don't think Soraka is really someone who's going to chunk down the other midlaner with burst and make them b a lot. If you're doing that, you're just outplaying your opponent (e.g., maybe they judge a trade poorly because they forget your W, and then they try to secure the kill by chasing you because they're annoyed at you, but you just Q every few seconds).

In post 31090, Iecerint wrote:Compared to other midlaners, I don't think Soraka is really someone who's going to chunk down the other midlaner with burst and make them b a lot. If you're doing that, you're just outplaying your opponent (e.g., maybe they judge a trade poorly because they forget your W, and then they try to secure the kill by chasing you because they're annoyed at you, but you just Q every few seconds).

Honestly you can get easy Qs and Es whenever they try to get the ranged minions under tower, IF nothing else. And there's nothing more infurating than watching a soraka just push lane, so you WANT to do something about it. And then you lose the trade because she heals back up. And then you want to try it again because MAYBE this time you can burst her down (sometimes yes, you will, most of the times probably not, again - especially if you're going 9/21/0 and building early defense like chalice vs ap or seekers vs ad)

To clarify, I'm not intending to argue with anyone in the thread; I'm just reacting to Riot's decision to nerf her.

I hope support Soraka sees a buff with her new Q.

Oh, I'm not arguing, it's probably my posting style

And tbh, most pro players agree soraka nerfs should've went through last patch, so it's beyond well deserved. But it's very hard to nerf one champion while keeping them viable in the support role (or vice versa). (Look how long it took them to nerf support annie while keeping her viable mid)

I was disappointed that no one pulled her out at All-Stars.

Welp, the Soraka changes are on the PBE.

Starcall [ Q ] - Now deals 50/75/100/125/150 damage ( down from 60/95/130/165/200)
Starcall [ Q ] - If an enemy is hit, Astral Blessing's cooldown is now reduced by 5/8/11/14/17 % (up from 5/6.3/7.5/8.8/10 %)
Infuse [ E ] - Now Has a Mana Cost when cast on an enemy: 50 Mana

Lazy.

Giving infuse's silence a mana cost is kind of a big deal

or at least it seems like it would be to me

In post 31094, Iecerint wrote:I was disappointed that no one pulled her out at All-Stars.

soaz played her toplane

In post 31096, quadz08 wrote:Giving infuse's silence a mana cost is kind of a big deal

ugh, yeah, that's pretty huge