Situation Room [Game Over!]

[northsidegal]

I think my only real complaint is the term distinction between the two phases (elim and kill).

I'd be interested in seeing it run the other way, as that turns what is a never bus setup into a setup where there is a clear upside and downside to bussing.

yeah, this was my mistake in the scum role PM. i should have written "upon your death" instead of elimination when referring to the venges.

when you say "the other way", do you mean that scum don't get vengekills during the room phase? or that they only get vengekills during the room phase?

[Bingle]

Scum not getting vengekills in the room phase.

If a large number of scum make it to the room phase, they're already super ahead and likely to win on stealing control of hoods and losing access to those kills won't hurt them as much. It also shifts the optimal strategy away from neverbus towards bussing is maybe okay, which I think makes the dayplay more interesting.

[OkaPoka]

i like that idea

creates a weird incentive not to lim obv scum and more incentive to leash everything

[FakeGod]

Thanks for carrying me town

[OkaPoka]

team effort

[Bingle]

Talking about optimal strategy and scumsidedness isn't necessarily a judgment call on this run, specifically, btw. Just that scum is disproportionately more likely to win if they have more players going into the neighborhood phase and so if you can manage to keep scumbuddies alive over bussing them that's the right choice in a vacuum.

[OkaPoka]

scumsided is good, probably necessary

[GuiltyLion]

Thanks for carrying me town

I think you helped a lot being obvtown and pushing Gamma on D1, also you had the correct Titus solve at first in Hood 1 and I didn't go along with it

+1 to Oka's comment about this being a team effort, town played really well overall we were wagoning scum left and right at the start of the game, to the point where it actually made things a bit harder to sort out in the midgame due to how rare it is town has so many wagons on scum on D1

[northsidegal]

i do actually think that removing vengekills during the neighborhood phase is probably the best way to slightly tune the setup so as to improve overall balance, although oka is right in that it creates something of a weird perverse incentive to just keep obvious scum alive (or perhaps to outright just not eliminate scum at all) so that they don't get a vengekill, which ultimately probably makes total leashing and control of everything even more optimal than it already is, which

probably

makes the setup less fun.

[Menalque]

I hated this game with an absolute fucking vengeance but that’s probably clear to anyone who read the scum PT

I’ve received one request based on this game to avoid people in future, oka if you feel the same way let me know, offer extends to anyone else who found me unbearable but I hated this game so much, I think maybe more than perpetual mylo even but it’s close

Other than [games with RC] I don’t think I can recall I game I enjoyed less in broad strokes

Dusa, saw you mention me, you were fun, thanks for being respectful of the alt, I have a guess for who you are too!

[OkaPoka]

i dont hate u mena i liekd playing with you but we should probably never play an open setup together because i love leashing everything and uhh sounds like you hate it

[Menalque]

Feel like we’ve played before and it hasn’t been as much of an issue? Idk I think specifically it was a problem given the neighbourhood element plus just honestly I found the scumteam incredibly exasperating, although it sounds like at least a couple of them felt the same way about me so *shrug*

[OkaPoka]

i think we've only played in the dance game and marathon games together i think. dance games i had less ability to restrict u since u were kinda too townie and marathons im just a deranged player

[OkaPoka]

unless u were on other top sekrit alts in which ymmv idk

[Menalque]

I feel like we’ve definitely played in more than that but maybe they weren’t opens? Or maybe it was when I was a sweatier tryhard who was less opposed to leashing and more attached to win %

[OkaPoka]

but yeah i think we have very different philosophies on neighborhoods. i view their existence as antithetical to town's win condition and you view them as a necessary source of fun

idk if we have maybe. i think it has to be alts tho because i feel like its only been the dance and marathon

[Menalque]

That sounds like an accurate summary of the contrast in our views. I think it would cause less problems in non-neighbourhood games tbh, I mean, I’d still absolutely fight you in the leashing and if I had a PR would do whatever I wanted but I think it wouldn’t lead to the fights that happened here/contribute to the total nixing of my enjoyment this game (which wasn’t you, but was a lot of things and not being able to fuck around with neighbourhoods was definitely part of it)

Might have been on alts tbf

[Menalque]

Idk if this setup is scumsided or not townsided but I think it’s not enjoyable for scum and that makes it de facto townsided regardless of what the like ~objective~ balance is

[Menalque]

Said this already but there should absolutely be nights upon lims because expecting scum to play 5 days back to back without rest is just totally fucking exhausting

[Bingle]

Read the Mod thread:

The two scumsided mechanics are the lack of easy discussion post room split and the potential for early parity post room split, both of which were showcased here.

I failed to note the potential for a forced top townread win as Oka discussed in the dead thread, which IS a townsiding factor. On the whole, I'd put this as a probably 70% scumsided setup as is, which is perfect for a townsided event like TM where scumwins are actually a desired outcome and reasonable for an open game in this meta, particularly because the players know exactly what they're signing on for. I had been assuming it was somewhere closer to 75-80%, but hadn't actually worked through the town siding implications of the majority instead of parity wincon.

I think my proposed split of venge in the first half/non venge in the second would make it closer to the actual vengescum 12v5 (62% scumwin) but would still be completely fair for a regular game. Honestly if this was going to be a TM setup (I'd endorse it) then I think the way it was run this time would be my preference between the two.

Also, on the note of this being a potential TM setup, it's functionally perfect for that. It has a larger than normal scumteam size, relies heavily on skill based play instead of the right people rolling power roles, and is more likely than not to be a scumwin in a vacuum, which means the event overall is more likely to be skill based than luck based.

[Ydrasse]

fun to spectate, wish i had kept playing but also don't think i would've been able to keep up with the game burnout i had at the time. gg!

[Menalque]

I think your numbers are borderline delusional, bingle

[Menalque]

I think there is approximately a 0% chance that scum win anything like 70% of games if you run this 100 times

[Dannflor]

I think the numbers assume a lobby of non-polarized players

[Bingle]

That sounds like an accurate summary of the contrast in our views. I think it would cause less problems in non-neighbourhood games tbh, I mean, I’d still absolutely fight you in the leashing and if I had a PR would do whatever I wanted but I think it wouldn’t lead to the fights that happened here/contribute to the total nixing of my enjoyment this game (which wasn’t you, but was a lot of things and not being able to fuck around with neighbourhoods was definitely part of it)

I think this was exasperated by the fact that from Oka's perspective getting into hoods was a necessary evil. Normally in neighborhood games people who want to be in hoods to chill get to do that and people who don't stay away from them.

Also, I touched briefly on this N2, but I think as town the best use of a neighborhood is to see if people change their play in the main thread based on neighborhood discussion when they're not themselves privy to it. I also tend to not enjoy being in a bunch of hoods as much as other people do though, so...

And yeah, my comments on scumsidedness/townsidedness are not about this particular run, just the setup in general. The lost on rand bit might've been a bit of an exaggeration, but this was definitely a townsided rand.