Datisi's Café [game over!]

[mastina]

Andre is prob town.

VOTE: Mastina

Back to bed for ma

:/ Uh what? Why?

I have played scum - Andre recently and this is like night and day compared to that last game.
It’s an early read, but I vibe with it.

Mastina is an RVS vote

For the record: I'm willing to trust Mala on this read, and this also moves Mala into town by some considerable margin.

Not sure if Mala is locktown, but she's north of null, and I am trusting her on Andres and moving him up to locktown.

[mastina]

vote count 1.final

with 21 votes in play, it took 11 to make a decision. day 1 ended.

firing

Ircher [11]:

mastina, Lukewarm, Titus, furtiveglance, Ausuka, RCEnigma, Klick, BlueBloodedToffee, Vivax, PenguinPower, petapan

[HAMMER]

Titus [2]:

Malakittens, fireisredsir

Ydrasse [2]:

Roden, Nero Cain

Vivax [2]:

Andresvmb, Ircher

petapan [1]:

Something_Smart

Roden [1]:

Uncrowned

Malakittens [1]:

jjh927

not voting [1]:

Ydrasse

mod notes

~ i am using a vote counter, let me know if there are any mistakes.
~ this is a mod note.

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▶ ❚❚ ──────────────────────────●───  2:53 / 3:04

Oh, this is easy!

Fireisredsir COULD be scum.
Those are the only 2 who can be scum off-wagon, so there's 1-2 scum on. 1 if Fire is scum, 2 if Fire is town.

[mastina]

LOCKTOWN:
{Vivax, jjh927, Something_Smart}
{PenguinPower} (almost part of above)
{Ydrasse, Uncrowned, Andresvmb, furtiveglance, Ausuka}

SOFT TOWN:
{Klick}

{Malakittens, Titus}

POE POSSIBLE SCUM:
{RCEnigma}

LIKELY SCUM:
{fireisredsir}

SCUM:
{Lukewarm}

{Roden}

Ydrasse

,

Uncrowned

, and

Andresvmp

are purely play-based reads without the secret towntell present. I'm still sticking to this being Ydrasse's towngame. It's weaker than before, but Ydrasse radiated town earlier in a way I don't think is scum. Uncrowned's content has constantly been town. I've loved Andres's D2 posting (some in particular), and there's not enough room on a scumteam for both him and Malakittens so Malakittens trusting him is enough to bolster him to here regardless of Malakittens's alignment. He should always be town here and I

see

it.

fireisredsir

fits as the scum off the wagon, and by play radiates being scum. I feel Vivax caught a good scumslip from fire, and fire just gives off the vibe of being scum. There's plenty of small things that add up here.

[mastina]

Andresvmp

continues to be looking better and better, looking more and more town, and I trust Malakittens's read there regardless of Mala's alignment.

[mastina]

Mastina, can you elaborate on your Uncrowned and Andres reads? I feel like you keep skipping right over them

I'm not as convinced as others are that Andres is town, but I do

lean

town there overall.

Andres had players townread him early-on, and had town vibes. It wasn't anything that I can really point to and explain, but he just looked like he was solving in a way that

could

be faked, but was PROBABLY genuine from town.

Andre is prob town.

:/ Uh what? Why?

I have played scum - Andre recently and this is like night and day compared to that last game. It’s an early read, but I vibe with it.

For the record: I'm willing to trust Mala on this read.

Malakittens has kept this townread on Andres and has said it has gotten stronger and stronger with time. Malakittens insists that Andres is locktown in fact. Her townread on him is that strong. She is

sure

that Andres is town. She is certain that Andres cannot do this as scum.

Regardless of Malakittens's alignment, I trust that read.
If Malakittens is town, then her read there is genuine. The question then becomes how trustworthy is her locktown of Andres, and given what she's described and her experience with him and her confidence, I am willing to bet that she is right.
If Malakittens is scum, then

theoretically

she could be hard-townbinning a scumbuddy, but in practice, she wouldn't do that and there's not really room for both Malakittens and Andres on a team anyway. Mala could be scum, but Mala and Andres can't be.

Beyond that: Andres's content has gotten townier and townier with time. Especially on D2. Posts like this demonstrate a solid thought process highly likely to be town. 1052 is dead on the point. 1060 has some good vibes too in particular,

(I didn’t find the “slip” killer, the freezing is what did Ircher in)

This is something that literally everyone pushing Titus is ignoring. The Titus-scum narrative

relies

on the logic "Ircher was caught by the slip and was fucked". Andres is one of the only players in the game to put the deeper thought needed to realize that wasn't the case, that it was Ircher's later responses which sealed his fate with what he did and didn't do.

I find the 1091 into the followthrough to be sincere. While it's

possible

to be performative or even scum thinking that asking would be scummy and then immediately retracting, the more likely option given Andres was suspicious of Vivax initially was Andres wanted to push Vivax on the details of his claim, but then realized that would be anti-town and took it back.

The towniness really begins to skyrocket in 1123 and the followthrough though. The viewpoint is sincere and thoughtful enough that I don't see it as scum. The way he worded it, the way he thought of things, the way he approached it, all felt town.

1130 is a valid criticism of Roden and good point in defense of Titus.

1169 may be easy to fake as scum but was still something I read as sincere.

Andres's interactions with Roden radiate town at every stage regardless of Roden's alignment but

especially

if Roden is scum.

And the final nail in the coffin that locks Andres as town is this post, and the immediate follow-through (and subsequent elaboration).


When it comes to Uncrowned, it's largely been a combination of Reads I Liked, insight I liked, and the general vibes Uncrowned has given off: casual chill gaming that is still contributing and pushing in a pro-town way, akin to Ydrasse (speaking of which the Uncrowned-Ydrasse interactions make me townread both halves of the engagement). How Uncrowned has interacted with Roden was incredibly important. The engagement there looks like town who doesn't know what the alignment of the person they're interacting with is. 409 gives an example of this. 469 is a good post too.

Uncrowned is also the player who has voiced suspicion on me, which I find the least likely to have ulterior motives for having done so. Less than you, less than Lukewarm, heck even less than Something_Smart. Uncrowned's engagement there looks like genuine unfamiliarity with me and trying to figure me out, rather than scum who has a good idea of what I am like.


Basically while I lack meta on both, both are

highly

likely to be town by play.
I realize it doesn't display well in iso. Isoing them doesn't reveal them to be town.
Reading the game, however, DOES.

Their townness isn't found in iso; their townness is found in reading all the posts in the game and how their content relates specifically to the gamestate at the time and showing nuances.

[mastina]

Mastina, can you elaborate on your Uncrowned and Andres reads? I feel like you keep skipping right over them

I'm not as convinced as others are that Andres is town, but I do

lean

town there overall.

Andres had players townread him early-on, and had town vibes. It wasn't anything that I can really point to and explain, but he just looked like he was solving in a way that

could

be faked, but was PROBABLY genuine from town.

Andre is prob town.

:/ Uh what? Why?

I have played scum - Andre recently and this is like night and day compared to that last game. It’s an early read, but I vibe with it.

For the record: I'm willing to trust Mala on this read.

Malakittens has kept this townread on Andres and has said it has gotten stronger and stronger with time. Malakittens insists that Andres is locktown in fact. Her townread on him is that strong. She is

sure

that Andres is town. She is certain that Andres cannot do this as scum.

Regardless of Malakittens's alignment, I trust that read.
If Malakittens is town, then her read there is genuine. The question then becomes how trustworthy is her locktown of Andres, and given what she's described and her experience with him and her confidence, I am willing to bet that she is right.
If Malakittens is scum, then

theoretically

she could be hard-townbinning a scumbuddy, but in practice, she wouldn't do that and there's not really room for both Malakittens and Andres on a team anyway. Mala could be scum, but Mala and Andres can't be.

Beyond that: Andres's content has gotten townier and townier with time. Especially on D2. Posts like this demonstrate a solid thought process highly likely to be town. 1052 is dead on the point. 1060 has some good vibes too in particular,

(I didn’t find the “slip” killer, the freezing is what did Ircher in)

This is something that literally everyone pushing Titus is ignoring. The Titus-scum narrative

relies

on the logic "Ircher was caught by the slip and was fucked". Andres is one of the only players in the game to put the deeper thought needed to realize that wasn't the case, that it was Ircher's later responses which sealed his fate with what he did and didn't do.

I find the 1091 into the followthrough to be sincere. While it's

possible

to be performative or even scum thinking that asking would be scummy and then immediately retracting, the more likely option given Andres was suspicious of Vivax initially was Andres wanted to push Vivax on the details of his claim, but then realized that would be anti-town and took it back.

The towniness really begins to skyrocket in 1123 and the followthrough though. The viewpoint is sincere and thoughtful enough that I don't see it as scum. The way he worded it, the way he thought of things, the way he approached it, all felt town.

1130 is a valid criticism of Roden and good point in defense of Titus.

1169 may be easy to fake as scum but was still something I read as sincere.

Andres's interactions with Roden radiate town at every stage regardless of Roden's alignment but

especially

if Roden is scum.

And the final nail in the coffin that locks Andres as town is this post, and the immediate follow-through (and subsequent elaboration).


When it comes to Uncrowned, it's largely been a combination of Reads I Liked, insight I liked, and the general vibes Uncrowned has given off: casual chill gaming that is still contributing and pushing in a pro-town way, akin to Ydrasse (speaking of which the Uncrowned-Ydrasse interactions make me townread both halves of the engagement). How Uncrowned has interacted with Roden was incredibly important. The engagement there looks like town who doesn't know what the alignment of the person they're interacting with is. 409 gives an example of this. 469 is a good post too.

Uncrowned is also the player who has voiced suspicion on me, which I find the least likely to have ulterior motives for having done so. Less than you, less than Lukewarm, heck even less than Something_Smart. Uncrowned's engagement there looks like genuine unfamiliarity with me and trying to figure me out, rather than scum who has a good idea of what I am like.


Basically while I lack meta on both, both are

highly

likely to be town by play.
I realize it doesn't display well in iso. Isoing them doesn't reveal them to be town.
Reading the game, however, DOES.

Their townness isn't found in iso; their townness is found in reading all the posts in the game and how their content relates specifically to the gamestate at the time and showing nuances.

++

[mastina]

Mastina, can you elaborate on your Uncrowned and Andres reads? I feel like you keep skipping right over them

I'm not as convinced as others are that Andres is town, but I do

lean

town there overall.

Andres had players townread him early-on, and had town vibes. It wasn't anything that I can really point to and explain, but he just looked like he was solving in a way that

could

be faked, but was PROBABLY genuine from town.

Andre is prob town.

:/ Uh what? Why?

I have played scum - Andre recently and this is like night and day compared to that last game. It’s an early read, but I vibe with it.

For the record: I'm willing to trust Mala on this read.

Malakittens has kept this townread on Andres and has said it has gotten stronger and stronger with time. Malakittens insists that Andres is locktown in fact. Her townread on him is that strong. She is

sure

that Andres is town. She is certain that Andres cannot do this as scum.

Regardless of Malakittens's alignment, I trust that read.
If Malakittens is town, then her read there is genuine. The question then becomes how trustworthy is her locktown of Andres, and given what she's described and her experience with him and her confidence, I am willing to bet that she is right.
If Malakittens is scum, then

theoretically

she could be hard-townbinning a scumbuddy, but in practice, she wouldn't do that and there's not really room for both Malakittens and Andres on a team anyway. Mala could be scum, but Mala and Andres can't be.

Beyond that: Andres's content has gotten townier and townier with time. Especially on D2. Posts like this demonstrate a solid thought process highly likely to be town. 1052 is dead on the point. 1060 has some good vibes too in particular,

(I didn’t find the “slip” killer, the freezing is what did Ircher in)

This is something that literally everyone pushing Titus is ignoring. The Titus-scum narrative

relies

on the logic "Ircher was caught by the slip and was fucked". Andres is one of the only players in the game to put the deeper thought needed to realize that wasn't the case, that it was Ircher's later responses which sealed his fate with what he did and didn't do.

I find the 1091 into the followthrough to be sincere. While it's

possible

to be performative or even scum thinking that asking would be scummy and then immediately retracting, the more likely option given Andres was suspicious of Vivax initially was Andres wanted to push Vivax on the details of his claim, but then realized that would be anti-town and took it back.

The towniness really begins to skyrocket in 1123 and the followthrough though. The viewpoint is sincere and thoughtful enough that I don't see it as scum. The way he worded it, the way he thought of things, the way he approached it, all felt town.

1130 is a valid criticism of Roden and good point in defense of Titus.

1169 may be easy to fake as scum but was still something I read as sincere.

Andres's interactions with Roden radiate town at every stage regardless of Roden's alignment but

especially

if Roden is scum.

And the final nail in the coffin that locks Andres as town is this post, and the immediate follow-through (and subsequent elaboration).


When it comes to Uncrowned, it's largely been a combination of Reads I Liked, insight I liked, and the general vibes Uncrowned has given off: casual chill gaming that is still contributing and pushing in a pro-town way, akin to Ydrasse (speaking of which the Uncrowned-Ydrasse interactions make me townread both halves of the engagement). How Uncrowned has interacted with Roden was incredibly important. The engagement there looks like town who doesn't know what the alignment of the person they're interacting with is. 409 gives an example of this. 469 is a good post too.

Uncrowned is also the player who has voiced suspicion on me, which I find the least likely to have ulterior motives for having done so. Less than you, less than Lukewarm, heck even less than Something_Smart. Uncrowned's engagement there looks like genuine unfamiliarity with me and trying to figure me out, rather than scum who has a good idea of what I am like.


Basically while I lack meta on both, both are

highly

likely to be town by play.
I realize it doesn't display well in iso. Isoing them doesn't reveal them to be town.
Reading the game, however, DOES.

Their townness isn't found in iso; their townness is found in reading all the posts in the game and how their content relates specifically to the gamestate at the time and showing nuances.

++

(to be clear, this is extra important thus the ++)

[mastina]

Also, just from a game state perspective, the reason I haven’t been all that keen of moving away from Roden, is that I would naturally expect there to be a lot of resistance to the execution of a player if the Town were roughly moving in the right direction. And you can’t tell me that more than a few alternatives have not been offered to stop Roden from getting executed (Titus, Something_Smart, mastina, to name a few). This is purely circumstantial obviously, and it can be interpreted various different ways (a lot of Scum together pushing the wagon of a Town player stubbornly wouldn’t look that much different to this, except I don’t SR Klick, I think Ydrasse is Town, and I doubt Malakittens is insisting on me being Town just to pocket me).

+town

[mastina]

Like Klick just seems to be in lockstep with you without any real unique pushes or thoughts of his own.

I think if Dannflor had any genuine interest in sorting me and thought this, the town next step would be asking any questions about any of my reads
Instead, he's starting with a conclusion and saying this with intent to sound persuasive instead of to solve
Because he doesn't need to actually solve for me
Because he's scum

^This is a genuine thought regardless of Dannflor's alignment. It is a good one. May or may not be accurate, but it is a good thought that comes from town.

So Klick can't be scum voting.

Andres has shown incredible nuance in thought that strongly indicates him not being scum. I've explained this read in fairly strong detail, but Andres cannot be scum here.

PenguinPower is town for a bunch of reasons.

I've explained my Uncrowned townread and it is basically due to Uncrowned having highly unique of a perspective that I don't see as scum, for instance the progression on me.

[Dannflor]

the recent scum game Malakittens seems to be referring to is this one: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89313

which if you take even a cursory glance past the game, you will see that it is a terrible basis for town reading Andres

[Dannflor]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

this game, for instance

which malakittens was not in

[Dannflor]

ergo, malakitten's confidence on andres' town is based on shaky ground

does that maybe make mala town? idk possibly. but it invalidates the point that for some reason we should be sheeping malakittens.

I also don't super think malakittens is scum either and TMIing a townie

the posts you are picking out as super townie are just like... not? they are either a lot of setup spec or posts that you called good in a different world where you believed Roden was scum and Titus was town.

in new context they look a lot worse

[mastina]

vote count 4.07

with 12 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 4 ends in (expired on 2022-10-14 01:15:00).

firing

Malakittens [3]:

fireisredsir, furtiveglance, Uncrowned

furtiveglance [2]:

mastina, PenguinPower

Andresvmb [2]:

Dannflor, Ydrasse

Uncrowned [1]:

Andresvmb

fireisredsir [1]:

Malakittens

not voting [3]:

Klick, Something_Smart, jjh927

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▶ ❚❚ ─────────────────────●─────────  2:44 / 3:30

[Malakittens]

Why are we voting andres

[mastina]

genuinely enjoy accusing others of lying or not making sense and getting screamed at in return.

I've played with some that prob think that way.

I’m of the opinion that you would have seen Scum be more obvious about the assumption to try and avoid it being interpreted as a slip

would be funny if Ircher was just town that unknowingly "slipped" and the scum are voting him b/c they think he knows too much about the setup.

Hahaha okay. I think you’re Scum doubling down on a bad take.

I think that if he's scum his intention is to antagonize and annoy you. Or maybe I'm the one being dumb b/c I have a very very hard time believing that he actually thinks this.

Wit that said, Ircher is the type of scum that’s willing to take a bullet for a partner. So I don’t think Titus’ argument that Irchers wagon sprung up to divert from someone else is merit-less.

You think Ircher deliberately baited a wagon on himself? How?

this is a dumb post and totes not what he said.

If anything, Mastina is bussing him.

[mastina]

Why are we voting andres

Because the town wants to eliminate one of the towninest slots in the game because they lack the thinking required to clear Andres.

I had my computer crash so I can't actually case Andres as town, but basically, if you read his iso in context rather than in isolation, it's never scum, ever.

Plus, Andres has zero good scumbuddies.
Who'd be scum with him?

There isn't a single player who fits.

Keep in mind, 2 scum alive.
Andres is at L-1.
IF Andres were scum, who would that leave as possible scum?

[mastina]

Dann can't be scum;
Ydrasse can't be scum;
Klick turned the Andres wagon into a proper wagon so can't be scum with Andres;
PP can't be scum with Andres;
Fire can't be scum with Andres;

Uncrowned , furtive, S_S, jjh , Mala are the only five who can be.

Andres is voting Uncrowned, which eliminates him.
S_S is spewed town, so not him


Only options left: furtive, jjh, Mala.

In those 3, you ALWAYS eliminate Mala/furtive FIRST.

Because furtive is more scum than Andres,
Mala more suspect than Andres and defending him whole game.

But really, Andres is just never scum hete.

[mastina]

Why are we voting andres

Because the town wants to eliminate one of the towninest slots in the game because they lack the thinking required to clear Andres.

I had my computer crash so I can't actually case Andres as town, but basically, if you read his iso in context rather than in isolation, it's never scum, ever.

Plus, Andres has zero good scumbuddies.
Who'd be scum with him?

There isn't a single player who fits.

Keep in mind, 2 scum alive.
Andres is at L-1.
IF Andres were scum, who would that leave as possible scum?

Basically, with only 2 scum left alive, scum CAN’T hard bus.
Distance, sure.
But not hard bus.

That eliminates all players as scumbuddies except Mala/furtive/jjh.

Furtive has far more reason to be scum;
Mala is more suspect and has been defending Andres the whole game.

So you should NEVER be eliminating Andres first. The only time that's correct is if it's a Andres/jjh team.

In all other worlds, Andres is town or not the scum to eliminate first.

[Dannflor]

What if I think Andres/jjh is actually very plausible

[Andresvmb]

Am I supposed to do anything here? I mean I’ve tried giving my reads and reading through slots and I’m voted by some of the slots I actually thought would never vote me.

[Andresvmb]

Like Ydrasse voting me here is dreadful. I understand some of the skepticism from fire who is just wrong and will never leave the tunnel. I really can’t picture you plotting to sink Titus like you did only to get enough Town cred to win as Scum, so I’m really confused. Why not ask me questions? What of my game do you think I could actually replicate as Scum? And have you even seen me play as Scum?

[Ydrasse]

squints

[Ydrasse]

Who do u think it is again

[Ydrasse]

Im going to be honest i feel like most people in this game have like Bad associatives with titus and im praying that we end up putting the wagon thru on a wolf

also i just want a flip atp i getting too antsy

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

Andres I need to get a better sense of who you think is scum

I feel like you’re afraid to push anywhere

It’s all defense no trying to solve the game which you really should be as town if you are this uncertain about who scum could be