A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Malakittens]

Ya'know after this last page I'm actually thinking Mirhawk is town. I don't see half of the stuff he's saying this coming from scum

[davesaz]

I'd very much like to see tictac's reads, and other's tictac reads.

[Axelrod]

Spoiler: map of skybird's ISO

skybird 3078

Axelrod

+24 -?465 -636 ☾ -=2567

Cerberus v666/millar13

+975 +=1752 +1753 ☾ =2649

davesaz

++==128 ++==697 =1230 ☾ =2469 ++2567 ++2659

dramonic

-465 -636 ++==697 ☾ +2469 +2567

dwlee99/Sakura Hana

+991 =1196 =1230 ++1444 ☾ +2650 +3078

Friendless Seniors

+128 +465 +697 =1019 +1087 -?1091 v--==1444 --1499 =1721 --1726 -1834 +1947 --2001 ☾ --2599 --2659 =2925

itlepip/Jim/beeboy

-128 -465 =635 -==697 -=1091 =1724 ☾ =2406 +2466 +2649 -2881

Marquis/Amihan

-691 -695 -697 --711 --723 ++==1018 =1444 ☾ +2454 -2881 =2922 =2925

Mirhawk

=966 -=974 =1225 -1230 =2331 ☾ --==2659 ++2781 ++==2925

pistachi0n

=1265 ☾ =2454 -2489 -v2490 -2491

⌾

uv2534 +2565 =2568 =2913

podoboq

--711 -1230 ☾ -2468 -2491 +2567 -2881 -2919 --2922 -2925

SirCakez

v23 =974 =994 =1018 uv1021 -?1091 -1834 ☾ =2490 =2565 --2781 --2810 -v2811 -2913 -2916 -2920 -?2925 -2955

The Pied Piper

=828 ++829 -991 ☾ -2810 -2881 -2882 -3077

THE WRONG LYNCH

=697 -=829 =1230 ☾

tictac

☾ -2369 ==2406 +2468 +2491 --2599

True Ogre

=128 -?828 ++829 ++2026 ☾ +2565 =2599 =2659 =2913

---

Ranger/swordsworth

+1196 +1264 ++1372 ++1444 ++1499 ++2001 ++2331 ✝

SnarkySnowman

-1087 =1225 ✝

Spiffeh

++697 =966 ++974 =1230 ✝

Tammy

++635 ++697 -=829 ++974 ✝

Did you actually go through Skybirds entire ISO and note every time she mentioned another player in this game? By hand?

Or is there some kind of program that does that for you?

[Mirhawk]

@Marquis
You can count me as being on the Skybird wagon. My vote isn't there, but I definitely support it.

I just don't really want to move off Cakez because I feel like if I let him slip away I'm not going to get another chance because somehow everyone isn't seeing how obviously scummy he is.

[Axelrod]

I gotta say, I am enjoying Dwlee99's posts approximately 10x more than anything Sakura ever posted.

Doesn't mean he's Town, but it's certainly an improvement.

[Malakittens]

I don't but that's just me

[Mirhawk]

So you're saying
Every single person who has a high scumread on someone needs to go indepth on their scumread on them, keep pushing the wagon forward and continuously analyze your posts? That's terrible, not every read is going to get a ton of justification.
I've never pushed wagons on Pist (except for the Miller CC, but that wasn't a scumread for anything else) or Piper, and Skybird isn't attacking me right now.

You made a hundred and fifteen posts before you got around to your justification. That's not failing to go in depth, that's failing to do anything.

What serious scumhunting did you do during that time frame that required you to not push your top read? There was none, you just kept a running commentary on the game.

The fact that skybird any pistachio aren't your scumreads is my point. You keep trying to paint this situation as you being exclusively attacked by your scumreads, and that isn't true.

[The Pied Piper]

Spoiler: map of skybird's ISO

skybird 3078

Axelrod

+24 -?465 -636 ☾ -=2567

Cerberus v666/millar13

+975 +=1752 +1753 ☾ =2649

davesaz

++==128 ++==697 =1230 ☾ =2469 ++2567 ++2659

dramonic

-465 -636 ++==697 ☾ +2469 +2567

dwlee99/Sakura Hana

+991 =1196 =1230 ++1444 ☾ +2650 +3078

Friendless Seniors

+128 +465 +697 =1019 +1087 -?1091 v--==1444 --1499 =1721 --1726 -1834 +1947 --2001 ☾ --2599 --2659 =2925

itlepip/Jim/beeboy

-128 -465 =635 -==697 -=1091 =1724 ☾ =2406 +2466 +2649 -2881

Marquis/Amihan

-691 -695 -697 --711 --723 ++==1018 =1444 ☾ +2454 -2881 =2922 =2925

Mirhawk

=966 -=974 =1225 -1230 =2331 ☾ --==2659 ++2781 ++==2925

pistachi0n

=1265 ☾ =2454 -2489 -v2490 -2491

⌾

uv2534 +2565 =2568 =2913

podoboq

--711 -1230 ☾ -2468 -2491 +2567 -2881 -2919 --2922 -2925

SirCakez

v23 =974 =994 =1018 uv1021 -?1091 -1834 ☾ =2490 =2565 --2781 --2810 -v2811 -2913 -2916 -2920 -?2925 -2955

The Pied Piper

=828 ++829 -991 ☾ -2810 -2881 -2882 -3077

THE WRONG LYNCH

=697 -=829 =1230 ☾

tictac

☾ -2369 ==2406 +2468 +2491 --2599

True Ogre

=128 -?828 ++829 ++2026 ☾ +2565 =2599 =2659 =2913

---

Ranger/swordsworth

+1196 +1264 ++1372 ++1444 ++1499 ++2001 ++2331 ✝

SnarkySnowman

-1087 =1225 ✝

Spiffeh

++697 =966 ++974 =1230 ✝

Tammy

++635 ++697 -=829 ++974 ✝

Did you actually go through Skybirds entire ISO and note every time she mentioned another player in this game? By hand?

Or is there some kind of program that does that for you?

By hand. It's my thing. It's kinda relaxing. I do it in almost every game I've played, and sometimes in games i'm not playing but just spectating. It helps me look at how somebody's affecting the game state and how they're approaching the game. It takes less time than you'd think, though still quite a bit of time, but it also slows down my reading a lot and makes it so that I can't skim but have to really think about everything the person is saying.

I don't have maps of everybody yet, but by late game I will. It gets more useful once there are scum flips, but I can get some things out of it even like this.

[Marquis]

On the NKA front, I think Skybird's strong townread on Spiffeh favors her being framed by the NK rather than being on the scum team. Isn't scum 101 to kill someone other town are townreading?

I don't find NKA too useful because it's just as likely scum kills someone because scum themselves think the target is obviously town.

I'm not giving my earlier point as NKA, I'm giving it as something to look into should Skybird flip scum as I expect. I've already said this.

Mirhawk I think you're town, but I think your position on this and the multiple low wagons only hurt town. At least Cakez is addressing points instead of waiting them out or talking around them. Finally bringing Skybird to L-2 or even L-1 would be great, unlike this constant pattern of non-threatening fickle wagons that don't draw anything out of scum.

[The Pied Piper]

+ deadline scrambles are annoying especially when the day phase ends at 3am for some of us.

[Malakittens]

VOTE: sky bird

[Mirhawk]

I was going to make a joke about eating cake after chicken or something like that, but then I realized that was dumb.

I can play ball on this, other people are supporting this wagon now so I'm not as worried about it dying out overnight. Not to mention I'm having a hard time believing I can scrape five more votes up by the end of the day.

Unvote
Vote: Skybird

[SirCakez]

So you're saying
Every single person who has a high scumread on someone needs to go indepth on their scumread on them, keep pushing the wagon forward and continuously analyze your posts? That's terrible, not every read is going to get a ton of justification.
I've never pushed wagons on Pist (except for the Miller CC, but that wasn't a scumread for anything else) or Piper, and Skybird isn't attacking me right now.

You made a hundred and fifteen posts before you got around to your justification. That's not failing to go in depth, that's failing to do anything.

What serious scumhunting did you do during that time frame that required you to not push your top read? There was none, you just kept a running commentary on the game.

The fact that skybird any pistachio aren't your scumreads is my point. You keep trying to paint this situation as you being exclusively attacked by your scumreads, and that isn't true.

You just said earlier I did make justification though. Not as indepth as the case but there was reasoning.

I can go dig up quotes if you seriously need them.

And I said the main two people attacking me currently were two people I tried to wagon. I'm not saying the only people attacking are scumreads.

[Axelrod]

By hand. It's my thing. It's kinda relaxing. I do it in almost every game I've played, and sometimes in games i'm not playing but just spectating. It helps me look at how somebody's affecting the game state and how they're approaching the game. It takes less time than you'd think, though still quite a bit of time, but it also slows down my reading a lot and makes it so that I can't skim but have to really think about everything the person is saying.

I don't have maps of everybody yet, but by late game I will. It gets more useful once there are scum flips, but I can get some things out of it even like this.

I wanted to say "there's no way in hell scum actually takes the time and effort to compile a post like that" but are you admitting you do it as scum too

[The Pied Piper]

By hand. It's my thing. It's kinda relaxing. I do it in almost every game I've played, and sometimes in games i'm not playing but just spectating. It helps me look at how somebody's affecting the game state and how they're approaching the game. It takes less time than you'd think, though still quite a bit of time, but it also slows down my reading a lot and makes it so that I can't skim but have to really think about everything the person is saying.

I don't have maps of everybody yet, but by late game I will. It gets more useful once there are scum flips, but I can get some things out of it even like this.

I wanted to say "there's no way in hell scum actually takes the time and effort to compile a post like that" but are you admitting you do it as scum too

I do it as both alignments and it helps me as both alignments, though I get different things out of it. Effort is not alignment indicative for me.

[Axelrod]

I finally looked at Cakez case on Mirhawk from #1774.

The short version is, it's not as bad as the case he did on TicTac. I don't agree that most of the stuff he was arguing is alignment indicative (Mirhawk's davesaz push, Mirhawk's reaction to the Miller claim/counter-claim), but opinions can differ.

I'm going to call slight misrep to say that Mirhawk only voted Ranger late after other people already voted her, implying he waited until there was more support for it. There was plenty of lead up to that vote and there was nothing suspicious about it.

On the other hand, I will give Cakez #1612 and #1700, which was when Mirhawk briefly jumped over to Cakez, as that one did look a bit opportunistic.

So, that's not really changing much of anything.

[Axelrod]

I was going to do my own thing on Skybird next, but since PP just did one, I might end up just checking to see if I agree with that or not.

[SirCakez]

I don't have every one of your posts ingrained in my head.

Pist was in my scumreads for quite a while.

Might have been your inactivity then because I have 0 recollection of you pushing pist

(yeah I went through ISO to back up stuff)

At least you are giving reasons. The scumread-first-then-ISO-cases are null for you, but it does make you really opaque as to your actual reasons. Makes the cases hard to take seriously.

The early note about TWL's "I missed you so much" being forced was bullshit to start.

No it wasn't.

Yeah it was, that could easily be genuine from either alignment, scum has no reason to fake that.

142 - is a gross early fencesit to start his Seniors read

Null is null.

144 - 175 has a bizarre defense of Seniors that looks like WKing. This was questioned by multiple people.

It was. I still don't get why.

Then in 483 after an extended absence, Seniors randomly becomes a scumread?

Cause he actually had content at that point and it was scummy.

Seniors 100% had content before your scumread developed, that's bull.

After this he disappears for an extended period of time and then dumps two walls full of things that look like they serve no purpose other then looking like he's doing something 1203 and 1361

Catching up.

Catch up is fine but those walls are loaded with questions that you never followed up on or actually looked like they were meant to help your reads.

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

That's a post by Spif. What post are you referring to here?

This was a typo on my fault, I fixed this earlier.

And then....that's it. He disappeared at deadline, scummy in itself.

I got other stuff to do.

10/10

His posts today have consisted of a sheep onto now-confirmed Pist

Still don't get how you'd miss my scumread on pist yesterday. Specially with you doing an ISO on me.

See above

and then an also-sheeped Dram vote

Dram-should-speak-more vote. Also wanted to see if he'd increase activity like last time he was wagoned, but the pist thing intervened and there was no real wagon.

Why haven't you been pushing Dram more then?

then back to Pist,

Again: pist was a scumread for a good while.

see above

then finally a weak Podo vote in 2578 despite nearly no mention of him in the wall preceding.

The preceding 'wall': 2487
'nearly no mention' is a huge misrep.

Preceding wall was the same post you made the vote in?

Green responses, snipped out irrelevant stuff

[Axelrod]

Nevermind, Sky doesn't have that many posts. I'm going to do my own thing.

[Malakittens]

By hand. It's my thing. It's kinda relaxing. I do it in almost every game I've played, and sometimes in games i'm not playing but just spectating. It helps me look at how somebody's affecting the game state and how they're approaching the game. It takes less time than you'd think, though still quite a bit of time, but it also slows down my reading a lot and makes it so that I can't skim but have to really think about everything the person is saying.

I don't have maps of everybody yet, but by late game I will. It gets more useful once there are scum flips, but I can get some things out of it even like this.

I wanted to say "there's no way in hell scum actually takes the time and effort to compile a post like that" but are you admitting you do it as scum too

Was about to say this doesn't apply to Ploti. I actually ruled out ploti and their scum partner by going there's no way they do this much effort and they flipped scum so yeah

[Dwlee99]

skimmed skybird's iso, not interested in placing a vote there

[The Pied Piper]

@cakes/itle/podoboq/tictac/whoeverelse: argh the colours thing inside other people's quotes is contagious. Today I am going to teach you guys how to quotestripe. It's really easy you type [/quote] when you get to the part where you want to type your own words and then you can still use colours if you want but now it's easier to follow along with, and then when you want to resume their quote you type [quote] again.

pedit @mala: in the newbie that equinox modded? that was a fun game. I think derailing that wagon off of almost-confirmed-scum in mylo was the most alignment indicative thing i've ever done, though.

[Malakittens]

Ya that game.

[tictac]

Not gonna catch up today, so I'm doing this and then going to bed. Promised a list, but since you made a case you get this instead:P

I feel like she's mostly playing by scanning the thread for mentions of her own name.

Paying attention to ones own name is a human-tell not a scumtell

Her first serious vote is in 1444 on someone she calls a scumlean not a scumread.

Yeah? How is being honest about the strength of her read a scumtell?
I know being all absolute surety so people are more likely to sheep is the mafiascum-meta, but that's not the only way to play. I've even read newbie-guides that advocate honesty instead. I find the refusal to conform refreshing.

1499 is really sticking out to me because this was 5 days or so before the end of the day phase so this was before the deadline scramble, long before, and friendless seniors asks her why she votes for them instead of ranger, a false dichotomy, but she doesn't call it out as such. why are those the only two options? (and this is a tangent but why is seniors responding to a post in which she says she's townreading ranger and scumleaning them to ask her why she's voting them instead of ranger?)

That's burden of proficiency. Not everyone sees what you see.

2369 ew.

aww shucks tell? Seen it more from town than from scum.
Or do you mean intending to vote me while not having paid attention to me?
Aren't you townreading podos sheeping? At least Sky says she'll do her own research before she votes. Also, she didn't. In 2491 she has done the reading and decided not to.

It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in 2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.

It's weird that she wants a better read on Dram? I don't think so.

Her reads reversal on tictac in 2599 is also disturbing because she'd previously been defending tictac for more or less the same reasons that she's now scumreading him.

I'm pretty sure she wasn't townreading inactivity, and that is what she scumreads in that post.
It's a thing newbs scumread.

I think Marquis and/or Nacho complained about this too, but I don't think any of the points in 2659 that she brings up about Mirhawk have anything to do with Mirhawk's alignment. She tells us she's going back and forth but she doesn't show us, or rather what she shows us doesn't look like a genuine back and forth.

That's two points I think
1. Thinking non AI things are AI. This is a newbtell.
2. back and forth. Yeah, she isn't going back and forth in that post, obviously, cause going back and forth is a thing that happens in time, while a post is a static thing.
What she is doing is explaining her thoughts on the matter. Again, not forcing a read in one direction is a good thing, just not one site-meta agrees with.

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Skybird, have you ever seen a situation in a game of mafia where a bad guy voted one of his scumfriends?

Townreading people for being convincing is def a thing newbs do. Heck I don't even know if it's a bad tell in all cases.

In 2913, she accuses Cakez of confbiasing but that's a townthing. Town confbias, scum misrep.

Burden of proficiency again. Terminology.

2925 I don't understand what podo agreeing with marquis has to do with mirhawk agreeing with cakez. I feel like she's probably making a deeper point than "why is it wrong for me to agree with somebody, you agreed with somebody too" but I'm not sure what it is.

Not a scumpoint

Mirhawk is the only slot she has a reads progression on. She asks a lot of questions of people (mostly denoted with a -), but the answers don't seem to affect her reads at all (denoted with a ++, --, or ==).

She addressed this in 2925. I thought it was a good defense.

Also, I do the colors, cause I think it's easier to read. It's also really easy to do. Ya should try it.

[Mirhawk]

I'll save you the trouble Cakez, I'll dig up the whole thing.

Initial vote justification.

Spoiler:

:/
VOTE: Mirhawk
Ami is right at least, those reactions did suck

sircakez - I would love to hear who your biggest scum read is and why without using the phrases fencesit or waffle. gogogoogogogogogogogogoogogoogogogoogogogogoogogogogoogoooo

Currently Mirhawk because his reactions to Ami's Miller CC was very questionable, felt like he knew it was fake, and then I really don't like his dave push.

Responses to me.

Spoiler:

Currently Mirhawk because his reactions to Ami's Miller CC was very questionable, felt like he knew it was fake, and then I really don't like his dave push.

It WAS fake.

How would scum be any more or less likely to know this then town?

Literally the only way for any reasoning following this line of thought to work is for Ami to also be scum.

You're on the scum team, Pistach isn't, someone CCs a Miller claim that third-party doesn't make. Boom you know it's fake.

How on earth would I know its fake?

What does a third party have to do with it?

How does this in any way invalidate my earlier statement?

I just said!

Third party wouldn't CC miller randomly.

What earlier statement?

Cakes is scum because he isn't looking for scum, rather he's coasting and has been doing so for most of the game.

In the last game I played with him (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594) he actively scumhunted constantly, in this one he vote parked on me over a thousand posts ago and hasn't done much of anything since.

That game actually had fluid game state. This game has been stuck on you and Seniors the entire game so ya I vote parked.

Questions addressed to me.

Spoiler:

Picked up on something else that bothered me that I forgot to mention last night: when did Amihan and TWL end up in your scum pool and why? There's not really anything in your posts about why you were scum reading either of them.

Ami's only in the pool because I'm paranoid about the miller gambit. I actually find her play kind of town.

The Wrong Lynch has been in my pool for a long time, I've just don't talk about it. I found some of their early - mid stuff poorly justified or opportunistic or something like that. Nothing they've said since has made me consider moving them out of it though. Their posts don't feel like they're trying to find anything, more like they're trying to look involved.

I'm pretty sure you're like....the only person scumreading The Wrong Lynch so you're gonna need to explain this more.

I'm pretty sure you're like....the only person scumreading The Wrong Lynch so you're gonna need to explain this more.

Like I said, they're around a lot but don't really seem to be looking for scum. More like they're trying to look involved. Mala more so then GM. They don't appear to have any other scumreads than me and (maybe?) FS. I'm not even sure if they actually think FS is scum or if they're saying he's scum if I flip scum.

There's a bunch of stuff in individual posts that I don't like either, but it's mostly smaller stuff and is admittedly kind of omgusy.

Can you quote some examples of this? I'm not seeing it tbh.

I'm not inclined to believe that replacing out is alignment indicative, though ironically enough in the last three games I've played there have been six scum replace outs.

This should be a sign for you that it is indicative. There were three scum replace outs in a Mini Theme I just finished and no town replace outs.

@Cakes
I get what you're saying, but if replacing out was a sure scumtell people would have figured that out a long time ago.

For me a vanity wagon doesn't have to be a one vote wagon. It's more if the person is ignoring a more viable wagon to be on one with low chances of going through.

Its not a sure scum tell, but this one just feels like one given Swords position in the game.
And that's my personal definition, I don't think there's a standard one.

Calling me scum.

Spoiler:

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

Ok ya Seniors is still scum. Mirhawk has just kind of vanished too.
Still standing by Ranger townread, her entrance/catchup felt super natural and open.
Why is everyone fighting with Tammy she's obvtown stop.

There are better things on the table already tho. Mirhawk, Seniors, Tictac, Axel are all good wagons. Still need to review Skybird when I stop being lazy (saturday mornings qq).

Why ask Mirhawk of all people?

Wtf why is Mirhawk townlean?

Because he's a scumbutt.

If you just want a case I can put one together but there's already been some solid ones I agree with.
Beeboy who is townreading Mirhawk? I see Spiffeh, Tammy, you presumably. Who else?

Wagon speculation?/calling me scum.

Spoiler:

Ya this counterwagon on me stinks. Both Seniors and Mirhawk got on, but both waited until two townish people, Spiffeh and Tammy, voted.

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

Did Cakez ever reply to this point?

I did not, missed that. That's a fair point.
Investigation on him is probably the best option with this big argument imo.

Unvote
Vote: Ranger

Look at the scum following the wagons everywhere. Seniors is doing the exact same thing.

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

Well, looking back, you weren't doing it so much at the beginning of the game (which is when I was liking your posts). There were just a couple minor ones (#131, #149, #399) which didn't bother me at all. But seemed like starting around Dramonic, you started making reads on a lot of people based on their "metas." Dramonic (#733, #884, #1023, #1026, #1028), Sakura Hana (#1109), Swordsworth (#1112, #1328), Snarky (#1328, 1550), Ranger (#1364, #1412), and the last (little) one was Cerebrus (#1502).

That's what I'm talking about.

It's one thing to feel like you know how someone plays, but it's just lazy to write off someone's scummy behavior because they "always play like this", or to just assert that X play is their "Town" play. And it seems like your been doing that more as we've been going deeper, which is backwards from what it should be.

Yes I use meta to avoid some lynchbait players like Dram and Snarky. Ranger genuinely feels town to me and I don't like these cases on her. Is meta a part of it? Yea but that's not the whole thing. And using meta isn't a scumtell regardless.

So 18/115. More than I had thought, but still not that many. Lots of them are pretty devoid of content too so I feel like I'm being pretty generous in including them.

Think the conversations in 914 and 1177 end abruptly? Me too. It's because every time there was a threat of having to discuss something with me at length he ducked out of the conversation.