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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:32 pm
by skitter30
i'll give scum ~48 hours to redact anything or whatever and then i'll open it
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:33 pm
by skitter30
In post 3199, DVa wrote:Thanks for modding Skitter! Nice consistency with vote counts!
tyty
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:35 pm
by OkaPoka
those were some nice pagetops ngl
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:39 pm
by Nako
DVa, you found that Gamma bussing meta very well. However, if you haven't find it, I thought Gamma was right at D1 too much to be not TMI. The game you posted confirmed my thought and Gamma got cornered after that.
FTR, I wasn't planning to lynch Kokichi as a PL at D1, I was just trying to create a conversation.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:40 pm
by PenguinPower
Sorry for real life, Gamma. Disappointed in your dead thread talk.
Take the loss as a team.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:47 pm
by PenguinPower
In post 3200, skitter30 wrote:i'll give scum ~48 hours to redact anything or whatever and then i'll open it
I'm good with releasing as is.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:57 pm
by Nako
DVa was so powerful in this game.
NERF THIS!
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:01 pm
by Nako
By the way, this was one of the best games I played recently.
Even thought some parts were extremely boring, I liked it.
Thanks for hosting skitter, and thanks for creating the setup implosion and mastina.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:02 pm
by DVa
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:06 pm
by DVa
Really glad two of my d1 townreads were actually right
one day I will dance with Gamma and we will both be town lol
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:17 pm
by Nako
I am the only town that was on all of the scum lynches BTW
LOLDVa
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:28 pm
by Almost50
In post 3207, Nako wrote:By the way, this was one of the best games I played recently.
That's exactly
the inverse of
my sentiment about my own play.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:29 pm
by Almost50
Well, You girls did pretty well. Shame on all the Town boys who went for each other.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:30 pm
by Almost50
Thanks for modding, skitter. Nice VC formats too.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:41 pm
by Kokichi Oma
Nice job everyone. Especially dva and nako.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:52 pm
by Mewtaph
Very good lylo play. Well done.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:18 pm
by mastina
In a mastina-designed game, generally the worst one to possibly take.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:19 pm
by OkaPoka
hey mastina could u give me access to the pt where u guys designed this setup
i just want to see how it actually transpired
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:21 pm
by mastina
In post 3198, OkaPoka wrote:i made the mistake of setup speccing without actually playing closed setups so i kinda just
haha
Closed setups inherently have different balance to them than semi-opens or fully opens.
In particular, a setup that is considered balanced as an Open would be scumsided as a closed, generally speaking, due to the level of reduced information. As a result, a mini closed game is going to be more heavy on power than an equivalently sized (semi)open.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:26 pm
by mastina
In post 3217, OkaPoka wrote:hey mastina could u give me access to the pt where u guys designed this setup
i just want to see how it actually transpired
I don't have the ability to give access to it; that'll be implosion's job to release it. I could in theory give the link, but you'd have no permissions to read it.
I can however walk you through the process.
In post 0, implosion wrote:mastina wrote:Setup:
Town Vigilante
Town Gunsmith
Town Jailkeeper
Town Voyeur (intuitively, I feel like vig+gunsmith versus doctor, even with the jailkeeper, is scumsided due to m.doctor being both a vig counter and a gunsmith godfather, so the voyeur here serves as an extra town PR to give them a boost and potentially signal the presence of the scum doctor if targeting the doctor's target but to otherwise be of little use)
VT x6
vs.
Mafia Doctor
Mafia Goon x2
In post 1, implosion wrote:At a glance looks good to me. Voyeur catching doctor becomes a pseudo-guilty on the person the doctor targeted if the doctor is ever flipped. Town PRs in isolation are all decently strong but have obvious negative synergy. I'd say it's either balanced as is or needs a touch more town power, though I'm not sure how I'd add that touch more town power.
In post 3, implosion wrote:Yeah after mulling it over a bit more I think it's balanced or close enough.
That was the review thread! (Most review threads aren't that long, but as far as setups go, this one is fairly balanced for a mini normal, so.)
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:30 pm
by mastina
You'd actually be surprised just how often a setup will have 2 rather strong roles/3 fairly strong roles/4 okay roles that all fit, yet fall short of giving the town what they need...and so, one extra role is added to the town which gives them the little boost they need. In this case, the 3 fairly strong roles were the jailkeeper, vig, and gunsmith, but the town needed a small boost in the form of a voyeur. A TON of setups are designed this way, but it's often designed in a way where it's invisible unless you have either full setup knowledge as the moderator/reviewer or hindsight bias of having seen it as a player.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:33 pm
by DVa
This game featured:
The myth, the legend, the T+T mason fakeclaim.
Now I can't wait for the next 20 games that feature T+S mason fakeclaims to point to this game as a justification
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:35 pm
by DVa
In post 2739, DVa wrote:I kinda feel like Voyeur is the type of named role NRG would throw into a setup because someone was complaining it felt just a touch scumsided so it could very well actually be out of place.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:41 pm
by mastina
In post 3222, DVa wrote: In post 2739, DVa wrote:I kinda feel like Voyeur is the type of named role NRG would throw into a setup because someone was complaining it felt just a touch scumsided so it could very well actually be out of place.
You're not wrong! You were dead on the money; that is precisely what happens in a ton of setups.
Most setups have core roles inherent to their key design, and then satellite roles designed to fine-tune the balance; voyeur is a frequent satellite role. (Because in of itself, a voyeur with no modifiers is almost useless; it can have
some
utility, albeit limited, but it is never a role which will on its own singlehandedly give a faction a huge advantage. Making it perfect to give an extra "oomph" to the town or mafia, without significantly overpowering either.)
Of course, these rules go out the window when you adjust the setup's starting size or the queue, since larger/smaller games and games that aren't Normal use inherently different standards (or in the case of themes, no standards at all), but it's a nifty guideline which will always serve you well.
Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:47 pm
by mastina
(Generally speaking, it is really, really hard to design a 13-player Normal that's a balanced game, low on swing, where literally every single role as-is, is equally essential to game balance...particularly because them being equally essential to game balance makes the game susceptible to breakage via massclaim, in that if the town can tell every single town role as-claimed is essential to game balance, it's too self-confirming. So designers compromise in some areas, to preserve the integrity of the most important areas.)
