As I say I understand why the Scorpious wagon went through and understand on an individual level why town might back it (some obviously did) but Scorpious' play was easily something a clever mafia player could pick up on and use to push him D1. Do you not agree with that?
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:11 am
by MalcolmTucker
Fundamentally, Kitty, what I suppose I'm asking here is...do you acknowledge a good mafia player could've used the contradictions in Scorpious' play, including the illogical push on Koopa after they claimed, to appear like a vigilant townie making a sensible elimination while knowing themselves Scorpious was not mafia? If so, it's somewhat likely mafia was on the bandwagon beyond Andres.
You seem to be taking issue with the fact Scorpious' town play was terrible but you're sort of missing the point I'm making here...ultimately we know Scorpious was town now, and as a result we know this is something mafia likely exploited when the opportunity was there to do so.
Also - what do you think of Math?
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:56 am
by ItalianoVD
Also, Roden’s push on me is quite skewed given the arguments.
Roden’s case against me is:
1) I defended Andres’ slot.
2) I voted for NK15 over Andres’ slot.
3) I voted for HEM even though I said I townread him.
784 is where Roden defends Andres’ slot and elaborated in 790
HEM, Kitty myself and Roden ‘defended’ Andres’ slot. But why were we saying it? It’s poor play in general and not alignment indicative.
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:18 am
by Cat Scratch Fever
VC 3.03
With 9 players, it takes 5 to make a decision. Day 3 ends in (expired on 2022-05-03 09:00:00).
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:57 am
by Gamma Emerald
In post 3198, MalcolmTucker wrote:Even your push on Mala feels similar. There were some holes in Mala's early play. Mafia can exploit this for a read that seems genuine even though they know it isn't.
This is the core for why I think HEM is suspicious
What sounds fake? My explanation? Lol smh. Are you scum?
The apology. I was in a hurry as I was getting ready for work.
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:16 am
by MathBlade
In post 3186, MalcolmTucker wrote:Re 3183 Math (won't quote it due to length), I get that the Scorpious wagon isn't going to be perfect insofar as the info we gain from it but the idea we should just largely ignore it in approaching who we should eliminate next because it's going to be confusing and hard to get anything definitive seems strange to be. Surely if it's mostly town on the wagon, it's also then worth analysing where mafia placed their votes, and what they were trying to achieve by doing this? The game for town is ultimately won via info we gain as time goes on, an actual elimination and how players voted is for me always going to be one of the best ways to gain said info, especially when we push players on the basis of it to see how they react.
That’s not what I am saying. Saying something likely won’t be fruitful isn’t the same thing as not to look. I, in fact, encouraged you to look. I find it contradictory and unhelpful but that’s me.
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:17 am
by MathBlade
In post 3187, MalcolmTucker wrote:I just fundamentally don't see why it's a good idea to ignore a D1 wagon of a townie who (to me) really did not look like mafia because it's not going to give us definitive info. That's...largely what happens in any mafia game? A lot of this game is based on gut reads, I'd rather at least be making a gut read based on actual info we've gained, and it feels telling that Math is keen to avoid this.
Again, not ignoring it. I just find it contradictory. If you get useful stuff from it power to you.
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:18 am
by MathBlade
In post 3188, ItalianoVD wrote:I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.
I think this is a stretch. I thought Scorpious was scum when I voted them.
Just because a wagon flips town doesn’t mean the wagon is bad as a whole.
In post 3198, MalcolmTucker wrote:Even your push on Mala feels similar. There were some holes in Mala's early play. Mafia can exploit this for a read that seems genuine even though they know it isn't.
This is the core for why I think HEM is suspicious
Indeed, my main contention is whether HEM/Kitty can be teammates at this point. Early game I think it works absolutely fine - Kitty didn't really have much of an opinion on HEM and HEM himself was pushing elsewhere. Since then they've been a bit more confrontational but not beyond it being for show I suppose.
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:48 am
by MalcolmTucker
Math - what do you think of Kitty? Likely to be mafia or no?
In post 3188, ItalianoVD wrote:I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.
I think this is a stretch. I thought Scorpious was scum when I voted them.
Just because a wagon flips town doesn’t mean the wagon is bad as a whole.
I disagree. Scorpious was a fatigue elimination. For me that’s a poor excuse given we had time to not vote there. I’m convinced the other wagons didn’t push through because of scum interference. I wanna give you the benefit doubt here given that you’ve been working and whatnot, I know that can be stressful, but your responses to questions and comments have been less than ideal when I’m reading.
You were responding pretty flippantly when discussing said Scorpious wagon with Malcolm. Like if your town you should wanna cover every area of the gamestate. I’m trying to find a good reason why you’d wanna look elsewhere than vca on a major wagon in this game and I can’t find one.
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:51 am
by ItalianoVD
In post 3202, ItalianoVD wrote:Also, Roden’s push on me is quite skewed given the arguments.
Roden’s case against me is:
1) I defended Andres’ slot.
2) I voted for NK15 over Andres’ slot.
3) I voted for HEM even though I said I townread him.
784 is where Roden defends Andres’ slot and elaborated in 790
HEM, Kitty myself and Roden ‘defended’ Andres’ slot. But why were we saying it? It’s poor play in general and not alignment indicative.
Let me make this clearer. What I mean to say is koopa’s vote on a basically empty slot wasn’t helping anything. Calling it out is nai. If I’m scum for doing that, then you’re all scum. You good with that?
Furthermore, I think you trying to use that as a case on me is very poor and you must have forgot your actions. Anyway I’ll wait for you to respond before rendering final judgment read wise.
In post 3188, ItalianoVD wrote:I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.
I think this is a stretch. I thought Scorpious was scum when I voted them.
Just because a wagon flips town doesn’t mean the wagon is bad as a whole.
I disagree. Scorpious was a fatigue elimination. For me that’s a poor excuse given we had time to not vote there. I’m convinced the other wagons didn’t push through because of scum interference. I wanna give you the benefit doubt here given that you’ve been working and whatnot, I know that can be stressful, but your responses to questions and comments have been less than ideal when I’m reading.
You were responding pretty flippantly when discussing said Scorpious wagon with Malcolm. Like if your town you should wanna cover every area of the gamestate. I’m trying to find a good reason why you’d wanna look elsewhere than vca on a major wagon in this game and I can’t find one.
Almost like I am not crafting responses to be ideal and instead being honest.
I don’t see how I am responding flippantly. I said I had already analyzed it and found it contradictory but I encouraged him to look. I am looking elsewhere because when I do it I get flipped town is scum which is a logical contradiction. When I look at why Andres did the kill I get contradictions. So I am trying to focus on play itself.
In post 3185, MalcolmTucker wrote:
The more I read back Kitty's play the more I think they're mafia. They continually stated again and again Scorpious made sense because they'd pushed a role claimed player but refused to consider that this was a pretty illogical move for mafia to make that would only put them under more suspicion, and that it was potentially more likely to end up coming from townie not thinking things through properly.
1. You have failed to provide any town reasons to sit on a claimed PR day 1.
2. I had considered me might be not thinking things through, but not only town can make mistakes.
"This play is too scummy to be scum" is strange.
This is kind of precisely my point though. It's not good play. It wasn't helping us advance the game. Koopa wasn't going to go out. But townies do things that aren't good play sometimes. It doesn't make them mafia.
"Too scummy to be scum" obviously isn't always true but it sometimes is...and literally was in this case. Ultimately the goal for scum is to stay hidden and blend in. Illogical pushes on a claimed role player is the opposite of blending in. Scorpious didn't even seem to be aware for ages Koopa had claimed, which would've been beyond careless as mafia.
Your belief Scorpious alone was mafia isn't my issue here though - I disagreed at the time but I was also fundamentally wrong on NK15. It's more the fact you appear to have suspected JV for very similar reasons at times considering they sat on Koopa too. But two mafia players sitting on the same role claimed player would've been really careless again, and was thus unlikely.
Even your push on Mala feels similar. There were some holes in Mala's early play. Mafia can exploit this for a read that seems genuine even though they know it isn't.
1. Okay but that doesn't make them town! How would have I known?
2. Scum can make mistakes too, and also refuge in audacity is a thing.
3. I was thinking they were trying to start a wagon. Stupid play but I didn't think TWO TOWNIES would do that.
4. So I'm scummy for pushing a scummy player? kk
What even is your point? That finding scummy holes in someone's play is scummy? Scorp chose to wear the costume of guilt.
MalcolmTucker wrote:It's terrible town play but you are ignoring the fact that it was actual town play in the end. Townies do daft things sometimes. Not everything that looks scummy is inherently scummy because as I say mafia want to blend in and avoid getting caught.
I felt it was more likely to be terrible mafia play than terrible town play.
MalcolmTucker wrote:Fundamentally, Kitty, what I suppose I'm asking here is...do you acknowledge a good mafia player could've used the contradictions in Scorpious' play, including the illogical push on Koopa after they claimed, to appear like a vigilant townie making a sensible elimination while knowing themselves Scorpious was not mafia? If so, it's somewhat likely mafia was on the bandwagon beyond Andres.
You seem to be taking issue with the fact Scorpious' town play was terrible but you're sort of missing the point I'm making here...ultimately we know Scorpious was town now, and as a result we know this is something mafia likely exploited when the opportunity was there to do so.
Also - what do you think of Math?
1. Sure. I acknowledge it. But so could a townie, trying to hunt during a day that was clearly going nowhere.
2. Mafia probably jumped on the wagon but a townie started it, for town reasons.
3. Math is solidly town IMO.
Like what?