Cait's disengage is Net, which has a very clunky animation and pushes you 400 units. The 50% slow is nice if you can land it, but it only works on 1 target, and landing it is not always feasible.
Now let's look at what every other ADC has (including Kennen even though he's a fairly marginal ADC pick):
Ashe: Slow on every auto+volley, and ECA, which stuns for a minimum of 1 second (during which an un-CC'd Ashe can run 325 units, or ~80% of Cait's net range). Arrow also slows targets near the target hit, making it more useful than net against multiple targets. Overall, Ashe has better disengage than Cait.
Corki: Valkyrie has a slightly better animation than Cait, and has 800(!) range. Not to mention that Corki gets Phage, which improves his disengage ability. Better than Cait.
Draven: Blood Rush gives him a huge MS boost, and Stand Aside is a 1050 range disengage ability that both stops them outright for about 1/2 a second and slows them for 2 seconds. Overall, I'd say slightly worse than Cait, but not by much.
Ezreal: 475 range blink with near-instant cast animation, not to mention that Ezreal's also buy phage. Stronger than what Cait has.
Graves: Quickdraw is 425 range, but doesnt have a slow attached. Weaker than what Cait has.
Jinx: Chompers+Get Excited. Better than what Cait has if she can get a kill, worse if she can't. That's sort of Jinx's MO, though.
Kennen: lol no contest, Kennen's is stronger.
Koggles: Kog gets phage and has Void Ooze. Weaker than Cait.
Lucian: Relentless Pursuit has longer range and breaks slows. And he can get multiple casts off in a fight.
MF: Make it rain. Yeah no.
Quinn: Blinding Assault to blind (not really disengage, but the "not dying" is nice when you are disengaging), Vault (I don't understand exactly how it works), +Valor MS buff. Probably better than what Cait has.
Sivir: Free Shurelia's OP as fuck.
Trist: Rocket Jump has 900 range and resets, even if the animation is about as bad as Cait's, and she has buster shot. Better than Cait.
Twitch: Invisibility, worse than what Cait has.
Urgot: Lolno.
Varus: Hail of Arrows+Chain of Corruption. Since Chain lasts 2 seconds, Varus can run further during it than Cait's net takes her, not to mention that it can hit multiple targets. Better than Cait.
Vayne: Tumble has 75% of the range of Cait's net on a much shorter cool down, and she has a knockback+stun. Better than Cait.
Cait's disengage ranks pretty lowly.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:30 am
by BROseidon
She's better than Draven, Graves, unsnowballed Jinx, Kog, MF, Twitch, and Urgot as far as ADCs go.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:31 am
by BROseidon
In post 32145, ActionDan wrote:cait's disengage is strong as hell. Net = distance + slow which is great against melee junglers. in lane it's "lol I see you desparately trying to harass me by walking up past your creep line, well I'll net - q. now get back to your side before I AA you some more"
Why would you ever try to harass a Cait in a way that would let her e->q you, though.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:33 am
by BROseidon
In post 32148, MrZepher wrote:auto for auto caitlyn will win almost every time. This changes depending on what abilities are used but we can assume that if you can dodge skillshots and auto attack at max range the whole time then you'll win the majority of ad matchups as caitlyn.
Not true.
Cait actually has relatively low DPS in lane.
Cait wins because you don't get auto-for-auto trades, you get "you get 2 free autos as they come in to harass, and 2 free autos as they disengage"-for-auto.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:33 am
by Iecerint
You're leaving out that Cait's absolute position is already farther from the enemy due to aa range and that Cait can also use her traps to zone.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:34 am
by quadz08
According to that post, Cait's disengage ranks below the following:
Ashe
Corki
Ezreal
Lucian
Quinn
Sivir
Trist
Varus
Vayne
In post 32154, Iecerint wrote:You're leaving out that Cait's absolute position is already farther from the enemy due to aa range and that Cait can also use her traps to zone.
Most mages outrange ADC autos.
Most bruisers have gap closers that break all ADC ranges except late game kog and trist.
And Iec is right, Sivir is a good counter pick to Cait when she's not over-nerfed like she is right now.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:54 am
by Siveure DtTrikyp
Quinn is better. The e only works as disengage if they're right on top of you.
I think the thing on cait is she's hard to engage on due to her long range. The difficulty of engaging on them in the first place has to go with their disengage for how safe a marksman is. A lot of the stuff that has more disengage is shorter ranged (vayne, varus, quinn, sivir). So how safe she is is actually quite higher than a lot of other champions.
Okay, so every marksman has disengage, and engageability. Disengage being how well do you deal with someone standing on top of you, and engageability being how hard is it for someone to get right on top of you.
Champ - Disengage - Engageability
Ashe - Low/medium - High
Caitlyn - Medium - High
Corki - high - medium
Ezreal - medium - high
Lucian - high - medium
Quinn - high - low
Sivir - high - low
Trist - high - high
Varus - low - medium
Vayne - medium/high - low
Draven - medium - medium
Graves - low/medium - low
Jinx - low/medium - Very high
Kog - low - high
MF - low - low
Twitch : low/medium - medium/high
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:01 am
by BROseidon
Yes, Cait is safe.
Safety and disengage are two different things.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:02 am
by Iecerint
I think it's kind of incoherent not to take them into account at the same time.
Cait's disengage is Net, which has a very clunky animation and pushes you 400 units. The 50% slow is nice if you can land it, but it only works on 1 target, and landing it is not always feasible.
Now let's look at what every other ADC has (including Kennen even though he's a fairly marginal ADC pick):
Ashe: Slow on every auto+volley, and ECA, which stuns for a minimum of 1 second (during which an un-CC'd Ashe can run 325 units, or ~80% of Cait's net range). Arrow also slows targets near the target hit, making it more useful than net against multiple targets. Overall, Ashe has better disengage than Cait.
Corki: Valkyrie has a slightly better animation than Cait, and has 800(!) range. Not to mention that Corki gets Phage, which improves his disengage ability. Better than Cait.
Draven: Blood Rush gives him a huge MS boost, and Stand Aside is a 1050 range disengage ability that both stops them outright for about 1/2 a second and slows them for 2 seconds. Overall, I'd say slightly worse than Cait, but not by much.
Ezreal: 475 range blink with near-instant cast animation, not to mention that Ezreal's also buy phage. Stronger than what Cait has.
Graves: Quickdraw is 425 range, but doesnt have a slow attached. Weaker than what Cait has.
Jinx: Chompers+Get Excited. Better than what Cait has if she can get a kill, worse if she can't. That's sort of Jinx's MO, though.
Kennen: lol no contest, Kennen's is stronger.
Koggles: Kog gets phage and has Void Ooze. Weaker than Cait.
Lucian: Relentless Pursuit has longer range and breaks slows. And he can get multiple casts off in a fight.
MF: Make it rain. Yeah no.
Quinn: Blinding Assault to blind (not really disengage, but the "not dying" is nice when you are disengaging), Vault (I don't understand exactly how it works), +Valor MS buff. Probably better than what Cait has.
Sivir: Free Shurelia's OP as fuck.
Trist: Rocket Jump has 900 range and resets, even if the animation is about as bad as Cait's, and she has buster shot. Better than Cait.
Twitch: Invisibility, worse than what Cait has.
Urgot: Lolno.
Varus: Hail of Arrows+Chain of Corruption. Since Chain lasts 2 seconds, Varus can run further during it than Cait's net takes her, not to mention that it can hit multiple targets. Better than Cait.
Vayne: Tumble has 75% of the range of Cait's net on a much shorter cool down, and she has a knockback+stun. Better than Cait.
Cait's disengage ranks pretty lowly.
Mastin2's alt account detected
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:18 am
by AngryPidgeon
You know that the reason Cait is a popular pick is BECAUSE she has a better escape than most other ADCs. I seriously stopped reading that post after you concluded that Ashe is safer.
Because Ashe is the exact opposite of that. Ashe is never picked because her ability to disengage is bad and she has no escape. Seriously. I know you don't smoke the herb, but... did you start?
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:22 am
by Siveure DtTrikyp
You can't say safety is irrelevant to disengage - if they can get to you without all their gapclosers you need more disengage than if they need to blow everything to even get to you.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:23 am
by BROseidon
In post 32165, AngryPidgeon wrote:You know that the reason Cait is a popular pick is BECAUSE she has a better escape than most other ADCs. I seriously stopped reading that post after you concluded that Ashe is safer.
Because Ashe is the exact opposite of that. Ashe is never picked because her ability to disengage is bad and she has no escape. Seriously. I know you don't smoke the herb, but... did you start?
Cait's picked because how how hard she bullies lane. That's the only reason she's ever been picked, and that's why she'll always continue to be picked.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:29 am
by BROseidon
In post 32166, Siveure DtTrikyp wrote:You can't say safety is irrelevant to disengage - if they can get to you without all their gapclosers you need more disengage than if they need to blow everything to even get to you.
This is relevant to a handful of champs.
Irelia Q range is 650 (which, with model and range shenanigans, means that Cait has like a ~20-30 range window where she can auto where Irelia can't Q her)
J4 E->Q is 770.
Lee Q is 1100.
Elise has 2 was to gap close at a higher range than ADC autos.
Jax jump is is 700 range (which, with model shenanigans, puts his jump at about the same range as Cait's autos).
Shyv ult is 1k range.
Kha, Eve, Skarner and Renekton are the only common champs I can think of where the extra range on Cait gives her functional safety, unless you want to start getting into fairly uncommon picks like Udyr and Volibear.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:30 am
by BROseidon
Although, even vs. Kha it's not particularly relevant, since he can ult to close the distance enough to put him in jump range vs. Cait.
So that's 3 common picks where Cait's extra range makes champs "burn more" to get on her.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:30 am
by BROseidon
It would be a lot more relevant if picks like Udyr and Volibear were more common.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:32 am
by BROseidon
Also, the Renekton thing is debatable because his single E+W range is still enough for him to get fully through Cait's AA range (though just barely)
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:40 am
by Siveure DtTrikyp
What you called ashe's "disengage" adds to her effective range - it's harder for people to get to her b/c of her skills, but it doesn't disengage at all once they're on top of you. And her ult isn't used as a disengage for 90% of people who play ashe.
Graves e also doesn't really count b/c he NEEDS it for dmg.
Also, we're forgetting this doesn't happen in a vacuum. Added range isn't added distance to enemy champs - it's probably added distance to allied champs meaning they have to get closer to everyone else on your team to get onto you with their gapclosers. Are they gonna be unfocused for that period?
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:49 am
by BROseidon
Re your first point:
I talked about min-range ECA specifically for that reason. Also, you can slow, walk away for 2 seconds, slow again, walk away for 2 seconds to disengage. The slow doesnt stack, after all.
Re your second point:
Not the case, because if the Cait is doing damage, at all, to the frontline j4/irelia/etc, then they can jump on the Cait. Where her team mates are in that is irrelevant.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:50 am
by BROseidon
ie, either the Cait is doing damage and gets jumped on, or isn't doing damage and isn't jumped on.
