Open 755: Two-Fold C9++ (GAME OVER)

[Performer]

I just came back from a hiatus.

welcome back, titus!

I have been in process of searching for a place in the area you are in (from last I remember from your msg of a meetup), as I will start work there this year.

[Kaiveran]

Otay, now for balance discussion.

CHANGES I THINK ARE PRETTY OBVIOUS AND NON-NEGOTIABLE:

• The game needs a proper Night 0 phase for confirmation and power choices.
  Also, the number of confirmations shouldn't be publicized until said phase ends. Doing otherwise opens the door for people to angleshoot alignments based on timing, which isn't good; scum are at an inherent disadvantage in such a situation.
  
• There should be mutual knowledge between the Traitor and mainscum.
  This game alone is probably the strongest case for why. There's always gonna be revealing mechanics in a ++ setup, but Traitor/Defector as they stand are way too likely to be a keystone for their team due to the unique associatives they create – making them a liability instead of the help they were intended to be.

CHANGES I'M PRETTY SURE OF:

• A Max Power scumteam should be {RB/RC} + GF-equivalent + Ninja-equivalent instead of current.
  I understand that scum probably need a boost if their side has 0 Ts, but Roleblocker
  and
  Role Cop seems OTT.

THINGS I NEED HELP FIXING:

• The Roleblocker/Role Cop choice doesn't seem to really be a choice; RB wins the day.
  As discussed in the Mafia thread, Roleblocker looks objectively superior, as in a multiball setup not only are you able to nullify claimed roles, but also possibly the opposing kill. This is borne out in offsite runs of this game too; in all the ones I was able to dig up I don't think I ever saw a Role Cop choice. Not sure could replace it to make for a legitimate option, though...my first thought is Watcher, but I'd like to hear your ideas too.
  
• The GF/Ninja equity also looks skewed a little, by the simple fact that C has more numbers than I.
  This could be cheaply "fixed" by making C and I both cover 15, but that would make D cover 20, and it seems a little weird to have protective roles have the greatest chances. If Watcher turns out to be a viable alternative to Role Cop, this could be a non-issue, but again, not sure of that choice.
  
• Inter-Scum Balancing will also have to be tweaked, in a manner that highly depends on the solutions to the above.

–––

I welcome and appreciate all feedback!

[skitter30]

The game needs a proper Night 0 phase for confirmation and power choices. Also, the number of confirmations shouldn't be publicized until said phase ends. Doing otherwise opens the door for people to angleshoot alignments based on timing, which isn't good; scum are at an inherent disadvantage in such a situation.

yeah you started the game i think *minutes* after i said i wanted the gf-equivalent - it was pretty obvious to me that you had just been waiting for me so i think that if i really wanted to i could have at least partially done some research and some angleshooting to try to figure out who else had to make n0 choices

[Performer]

The Roleblocker/Role Cop choice doesn't seem to really be a choice; RB wins the day. As discussed in the Mafia thread, Roleblocker looks objectively superior, as in a multiball setup not only are you able to nullify claimed roles, but also possibly the opposing kill. This is borne out in offsite runs of this game too; in all the ones I was able to dig up I don't think I ever saw a Role Cop choice. Not sure could replace it to make for a legitimate option, though...my first thought is Watcher, but I'd like to hear your ideas too.

Hello,
I didn't play this game but just wanted to offer setup advice in terms of purely setup advice. This is coming from setup review/hosting/gameplay experience along with past game observations onsite.

1. Some ideas for the above:
-What about an rb+rc hybrid role? This role would be able to rb OR rc the target in 1 night
-What about a multitasking rb+rc role? This role would be able rb AND rc the target in 1 night
-What about x-shot rb or x-shot rc?

2. I do think you have a point in rb being stronger than rc.
3. As for the point of a Watcher, I think it really depends on what the rest of your setup roles are, and what your setup goals are. For instance, would your setup be focused on having wifom with the theme of neighborhoods and pt cops. Or maybe your setup themes are something else, then you would have to brainstorm if a Watcher fits into there.

[skitter30]

There should be mutual knowledge between the Traitor and mainscum. This game alone is probably the strongest case for why. There's always gonna be revealing mechanics in a ++ setup, but Traitor/Defector as they stand are way too likely to be a keystone for their team due to the unique associatives they create –

making them a liability instead of the help they were intended to be.

what do you mean by 'mutual knowledge' here?

i talked about the bolded in one of the pt's i was in for this game at some point

[skitter30]

The Roleblocker/Role Cop choice doesn't seem to really be a choice; RB wins the day. As discussed in the Mafia thread, Roleblocker looks objectively superior, as in a multiball setup not only are you able to nullify claimed roles, but also possibly the opposing kill. This is borne out in offsite runs of this game too; in all the ones I was able to dig up I don't think I ever saw a Role Cop choice. Not sure could replace it to make for a legitimate option, though...my first thought is Watcher, but I'd like to hear your ideas too.

i think a shot-limited watcher could work in this setup imo

[Kaiveran]

what do you mean by 'mutual knowledge' here?

Both of them know each other: mainscum knows the Traitor

as well as

Traitor knowing mainscum

i think a shot-limited watcher could work in this setup imo

This suggests Watcher is

more

powerful than RB; could you elaborate on this? Knowing relative power is critical in judging how many shots to give.

Hello,
I didn't play this game but just wanted to offer setup advice in terms of purely setup advice. This is coming from setup review/hosting/gameplay experience along with past game observations onsite.

1. Some ideas for the above:
-What about an rb+rc hybrid role? This role would be able to rb OR rc the target in 1 night
-What about a multitasking rb+rc role? This role would be able rb AND rc the target in 1 night
-What about x-shot rb or x-shot rc?

2. I do think you have a point in rb being stronger than rc.
3. As for the point of a Watcher, I think it really depends on what the rest of your setup roles are, and what your setup goals are. For instance, would your setup be focused on having wifom with the theme of neighborhoods and pt cops. Or maybe your setup themes are something else, then you would have to brainstorm if a Watcher fits into there.

My setup goals are really nothing extravagant. It's really a sort of "Nearly Normal" setup, with only a couple of roles that don't fit into those rules, just in a multiball ++ format. So the combo roles you suggest kinda don't fit with that. As for Watcher, it's a common enough scum PR, with a similar case of multiple utility as Roleblocker, that I think it would fit nicely.

[Performer]

Both of them know each other: mainscum knows the Traitor as well as Traitor knowing mainscum

If this change would be implemented for an open setup game, it would probably be a very big power boost for scum....like a 2 teamed+1 traitor or 3 teamed+1 traitor team knowing who every scum member is.

In that case I'd imagine putting in a little extra power for other factions for balance.

[skitter30]

This suggests Watcher is more powerful than RB; could you elaborate on this? Knowing relative power is critical in judging how many shots to give.

i feel like they could find a bunch of prs (and/or killing!opposing!team scum) in one night, which is pretty powerful
i really have no idea how to judge comparitive balance, saying i think shot-limited is better was kinda gut

[skitter30]

Subject: Open 755 – The Skittish Diary of Skitter30

so in this setup i think having a traitor is really, really, really tricky - i'd almost prefer for that to not be a thing. eh maybe not. trying to decide
but basically in single-ball with a traitor i'd assume that a scummy person was my traitor. in multiball i'd assume that a scummy person is scum
here i have to diffrentiate between different types of scumminess - i found someone scummy - are they my traitor or on the other team? should i be trying to lynch them or prevent them from being lynched? the traitor could maybe signal back to me but it adds an extra level of complexity in how i'm trying to read this game.

i need to identify townies, mafia, and my own traitor, so there's like three levels i need to be trying ot read this game on.

[Vorkuta]

The game needs a proper Night 0 phase for confirmation and power choices

Can confirm- I have a screenshot of this bug 3/4 of the last people to confirm were scum

[Aristophanes]

This was fun and I was really glad to be a part of it!

Kaiver, you were super awesome as a Mod and anytime I needed anything it was great to know you were there!
I am eventually going to read the post with your balance suggestions and say something...probably.

[Kaiveran]

Here is a tentative revision of the setup, complete with updated Doc.

[the worst]

balancing multiball is like a huge blind spot of mine bc I can't focus on probabilities of swing very well like I always find the worst case scenarios in sb setups and ppl are like "duck sweaty there's a 0.2% chance of that ever happening...."

basically I was fine being town in this setup. I'd be fine being scum in this setup. If you're considering a two-way traitor, maybe just make them another goon because that's basically just a goon who couldn't find the scum pt (I think it's a bit too far outside the range of what a traitor is to be worth being a traitor)

I liked the fact it spun out as more of a vanilla variant this time. Multiball games with 9001 power roles sound like the worst thing possible. But I also feel like the chances of that happening with this setup are pretty small

I'd say just make minor tweaks (n0 start is great) and focus on what your intention is when adding/changing roles (does it add synergy? is it actually useful? does it power up a faction in a meaningful way?)

idk how to calculate ev on this or whether it's balanced but it's fineish. which for multiball isn't something I say much

[the worst]

maybe make it so if this setup reaches xylo without any scum lynched, BuJaber spawns to slam dunk every single member of every single scumteam

just food for thought

[Shoshin]

Yay Town!

Thanks for modding, Kaiveran, you were an excellent mod in all respects!

[Shoshin]

I wouldn't do mutual knowledge. Traitor is one of my favorite roles & I think mutual knowledge changes the role in ways that defeat its purpose. Like, part of what makes traitor an interesting role is that it becomes a liability or help depending on how players approach the game, which puts extra focus on day play.

[Kaiveran]

If you're considering a two-way traitor, maybe just make them another goon because that's basically just a goon who couldn't find the scum pt (I think it's a bit too far outside the range of what a traitor is to be worth being a traitor)

I wouldn't do mutual knowledge. Traitor is one of my favorite roles & I think mutual knowledge changes the role in ways that defeat its purpose. Like, part of what makes traitor an interesting role is that it becomes a liability or help depending on how players approach the game, which puts extra focus on day play.

Yeah, it seems like the baseline play/mechanics of Traitor means it's really not well-suited to my purposes at all. These responses are making me think that

adding an extra Goon to the weaker team, in exchange for making said team White Flag, could be a viable alternative

, achieving similar results without bastardizing an existing role.

[Kaiveran]

Oh yeah, and thanks Shoshin~ I try my best.

maybe make it so if this setup reaches xylo without any scum lynched, BuJaber spawns to slam dunk every single member of every single scumteam

just food for thought

Is that even a function of the setup design, rather than Bougie being in a game?

[the worst]

White flag is like +swing -fun in multiball I think
what would the balancing impact of just adding an extra goon be?

[Kaiveran]

Oh shit, that doesn't work because it takes away the "Traitor-type with Power Role" wifom that was a good feature of the Day play thus far

hmmmmmm

P-EDIT: that too.

[the worst]

It did? Chenn was p obvtown postclaim, I would have been very surprised if he was a wolf. I'd probably take away the traitor PR and make them a goon or just leave the traitor as is. 2 way traitor is distinctly overpowered. Worth noting the wolfteam here didn't try any cheeky traitor shenanigans at all

[davesaz]

I'm not so sure one game's result is enough to even balance from.
Might be better to have several runs before tinkering.

[Kaiveran]

2 way traitor is distinctly overpowered.

How's it better than a goon?

[skitter30]

yeah i was kinda thinking that a 2way traitor is basically a goon who can't talk at night - it's not like we had daytalk anyways