Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.9 - As of post 325

Greenknight (3) - Acosmist, triangle123, Starbuck
jasonT1981 (4) - Tierce, Iecerint, GreyICE, CryMeARiver
Acosmist (1) - T-Bone
Starbuck (1) - Greenknight
T-Bone (1) - Korlash

Not Voting (3) - kortul, jasonT1981, Zang

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes -
Korlash will be V/LA from July 7 to July 15.
CryMeARiver will be V/LA from July 8 to July 14.

[Acosmist]

Starbuck asked GreyICE a loaded question (and apparently hasn't backed down from that) and I called her on it. I haven't seen anything else to concern me in that direction. I mean, doubling down on it isn't great, but whatever. My opinion on Starbuck is that I don't know what her loaded question says about her alignment.

Which? The question from 103?

I don't understand how asking for some reasoning for scum reads is a loaded question.

??? This is getting tiresome. You said "Why am I scum? For a reason that can't be the reason because you called other people town for it?" You got nailed on that. Deal. It's not going away and if I think you are scummy in the future for an independent reason, I will care about it. It's been noted.

Oh hey T-Bone. UNVOTE: , VOTE: T-Bone

I still like Greenknight and to a lesser extent Jason for lynches, but T-Bone's shtick where he can make walls attacking me and I can't refute his pathetic cases is hilariously scummy. Also, we're all adults. Stop whining about insults. Don't post illiterate nonsense if you have thin skin.

319 (Zang): Yes. Perhaps it got lost in there, but his reason for thinking

I

am scum with Jason is actually a reason

he

is scum with Jason.

I am comfortable with Zang and GreyICE. Others are entirely null to me. They can feel free to convince me they are scum if they want.

[greenknight]

1. I never said my mislynch record was relevant.

Then why bring up irrelevant meta?

2. However, you want to take it.

I say it's insincere and artificial and you claim this means I want to take it?

Using the word "probably" makes it so that you can swing either way. You never did say with vehemence whether or not you believed it.

3. I *HAVE* been saying that you appear scummy, but you could definitely be a mislynch.

Yeah WTF. You say conviction is a town tell, and say that I'm fence sitting and scummy for using the phrase "probably lying" regarding Grey's claim. Guess what? This quote of yours demonstrates lack of conviction (note the use of the word "appear") and fencesitting which makes you scum by YOUR OWN TELLS.

He did end RVS, that is a fact. With his claim and he spawned your asinine case on Zang and also the ridiculous one on Jason that got us to where we are now. Take off the blinders, buddy.

That's crap. Grey made a fakeclaim on page 1 which most people ignored, threw out a bunch of unexplained reads, and just left everyone else to do the analysis. He doesn't get any town credit for that. If he hadn't claimed, people would just have found something else suspicious by page 3 or 4 as usual.

Also if the case against Jason is ridiculous in your opinion, why did you not even comment on it until post #246? Nevermind that the first thing Greyice did after retracting the Zang claim was to vote Jason, so it makes no sense to give him credit for ending RVS if he just immediately hopped onto a "ridiculous" case combined with calling you scum for no reason.

but wait... it makes sense if you're scum. Since you think OMGUS is a scum tell, you don't want to call Grey out because someone might accuse you of OMGUS. So why not say something nice about him and hope he goes away.

[Starbuck]

Starbuck asked GreyICE a loaded question (and apparently hasn't backed down from that) and I called her on it. I haven't seen anything else to concern me in that direction. I mean, doubling down on it isn't great, but whatever. My opinion on Starbuck is that I don't know what her loaded question says about her alignment.

Which? The question from 103?

I don't understand how asking for some reasoning for scum reads is a loaded question.

??? This is getting tiresome. You said "Why am I scum? For a reason that can't be the reason because you called other people town for it?" You got nailed on that. Deal. It's not going away and if I think you are scummy in the future for an independent reason, I will care about it. It's been noted.

I agree that it is getting tiresome, but you keep harping on something that we've already touched on and gone over. So stop it. You made your point, let's move on.

[Starbuck]

Then why bring up irrelevant meta?

Because I was trying to make a point that you don't seem to understand. You also keep breaking my paragraph up, which is meant as a statement all together, to focus on bits and pieces.

I say it's insincere and artificial and you claim this means I want to take it?

You are seriously twisting and misrepresenting and this isn't the first time in this long frakking discussion. You say that my apology is "insincere and artificial". You don't know me, you've never played with me before. You decided for yourself that I am being "insincere and artificial" because of my suspicion of you.

You are not even entertaining the fact that I am being sincere, so I said "However, you want to take it" as in however you want to perceive what I said. Obviously, you are going to twist my words as backwards as you can to keep up with this completely strawman case that you are trying to pull together.

Yeah WTF. You say conviction is a town tell, and say that I'm fence sitting and scummy for using the phrase "probably lying" regarding Grey's claim. Guess what? This quote of yours demonstrates lack of conviction (note the use of the word "appear") and fencesitting which makes you scum by YOUR OWN TELLS.

No, it doesn't. You are scummy, but I can still entertain the fact that you could be a mislynch and just playing very badly. There's nothing wrong with that. I won't know either way until you flip.

That's crap. Grey made a fakeclaim on page 1 which most people ignored, threw out a bunch of unexplained reads, and just left everyone else to do the analysis. He doesn't get any town credit for that. If he hadn't claimed, people would just have found something else suspicious by page 3 or 4 as usual.

I never said that he got "town credit" for any of that. I am giving him credit for getting us out of RVS because he did do that, but if you hadn't noticed my read on Grey is null. Stop putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting me. Oh, that's right, you can't.

Also if the case against Jason is ridiculous in your opinion, why did you not even comment on it until post #246? Nevermind that the first thing Greyice did after retracting the Zang claim was to vote Jason, so it makes no sense to give him credit for ending RVS if he just immediately hopped onto a "ridiculous" case combined with calling you scum for no reason.

It was something that I needed to re-read the entire thread for (which I've already stated). Like everyone else, I do have a life. I wanted to take some time and re-read to give my opinion on Jason after having it fresh in my mind, rather than just throwing out an opinion without being able to back anything up.

It's apparent that we are never going to agree on the ending of RVS, so let's end that argument here with agreeing to disagree. We know it exists and your mind isn't going to be changed and neither is mine. There's more important things going on in the game than to keep arguing this point.

but wait... it makes sense if you're scum. Since you think OMGUS is a scum tell, you don't want to call Grey out because someone might accuse you of OMGUS. So why not say something nice about him and hope he goes away.

There you go again misrepresenting me AGAIN. I never said that OMGUS is a scum tell, but I did say that it could be in your case and that it depends on the situation. Other than Zang, your only two scum reads have been myself and Grey because both of us have said that we think you are scum.

You have not talked about anyone else, you have been tunneling. Time to bring your head up out of the dirt, Mr. Mole.

[kortul]

Just finished reassessing

jasonT1981

. Did the double ISOs Jason/Tierce and Jason/Korlash (since both Tierce and Korlash are my town reads, i am not going to do their ISOs anytime soon, and they have some walls with him, so reading such ISOs is easier), and then i had to do Jason/Grey ISO to carefully read their exchange (since most of the time they don't use quotes).

I have to admit that my read on Jason changed. There isn't one big thing pointing that Jason is scum, but there are several points that do accumulate in a scum read on him. And no, fence sitting isn't one of them.

When Jason did his 1v1 post, i took it more as a townish warning. In a recent dialogue with GreyICE he said, that it was done "to test just how serious your claim was" and farther commented "I was pushing you to see how truthful you were being", and looking back that changes things. It is no longer a townish warning, but anti-town pressing. If Jason really had no doubts that Grey is lying, then pushing if Grey is scum is rather silly, we don't want him to take the claim back, since 1v1 trade with scum benefits town. And pushing if Grey is town can have unpredictable results, given his playing style.

Moreover, Grey case against Jason makes sense to me now. In post 229, GreyICE asked "Why did you want a 1v1 between me and Zang, Jason". Essentially that led to a:

See the thing is, Jason, if you don't believe the claim, but ALSO believe I might fakeclaim as town, there's no town motivation to vote Zang. If he does get quicklynched, does flip town, and the town does lynch me day 2 the game is essentially over - it'll be two days with zero information and a pile of dead townies.

There's a lot of scum motivation to do that though.

Instead of arguing Jason deflected this by asking for town motivation behind Grey initial claim, and avoided mentioning this afterwards as a point against himself.

There's another example of foul defense, Korlash explained it in post 182. It was based on fence sitting discussion, so i just skimmed through this before, but after careful reading i don't see why there was a need to use such tricks, especially since i don't consider the initial points scummy.

And the main point for me is his general behavior. Jason is too defensive. I thought he needed time to answer accusations, but time passes and nothing changes, which is strange, considering that accusations are most of the time the same. Where's scumhunting? So far he attacked Grey (withdrew) and suspected Starbuck (changed to town without explanations). His scum pool changed, but no explanations yet.

VOTE: jasonT1981

My next ISOs would be on greenknight and Acosmist, hopefully tomorrow.

[GreyICE]

Grey. Teamwork. Please.
You need to realize the fact that you're in a team and that the kortul wagon has no pull today, so move on to the next best case. Compromise.

I really don't like this blind tunneling and it makes me suspicious of you--yes, there is no commentary on jason's wagon on that post, but it's a weekend (when he said he would be V/LA) and kortul is ISOing people, as he said he would.

kortul will be back on the table tomorrow. Today, other fish are due on the frying pan.

-_-

Blind tunneling? Threatening me Tierce?

We're 8 days from deadline, I feel no deadline pressure.

Vote: Tierce

Lets slice your bubble and see how you fall.

[greenknight]

Then why bring up irrelevant meta?

Because I was trying to make a point that you don't seem to understand. You also keep breaking my paragraph up, which is meant as a statement all together, to focus on bits and pieces.

I say it's insincere and artificial and you claim this means I want to take it?

You are seriously twisting and misrepresenting and this isn't the first time in this long frakking discussion. You say that my apology is "insincere and artificial". You don't know me, you've never played with me before. You decided for yourself that I am being "insincere and artificial" because of my suspicion of you.

You are not even entertaining the fact that I am being sincere, so I said "However, you want to take it" as in however you want to perceive what I said. Obviously, you are going to twist my words as backwards as you can to keep up with this completely strawman case that you are trying to pull together.

LOL more scum hypocrisy.

Twisting and misrepresenting is PRECISELY what you have been doing since you started your 10 page tunnel on me (even more hilarious is you accusing me of tunnelling when you've done nothing but tunnelling me).

Do you know me? Have you played with me before? Has that stopped you reading whatever motives you feel like into my posts? No. And you complain about me reading motives into yours? Your double standards are ridiculous.

[Tierce]

Grey. Teamwork. Please.
You need to realize the fact that you're in a team and that the kortul wagon has no pull today, so move on to the next best case. Compromise.

I really don't like this blind tunneling and it makes me suspicious of you--yes, there is no commentary on jason's wagon on that post, but it's a weekend (when he said he would be V/LA) and kortul is ISOing people, as he said he would.

kortul will be back on the table tomorrow. Today, other fish are due on the frying pan.

-_-

Blind tunneling? Threatening me Tierce?

We're 8 days from deadline, I feel no deadline pressure.

Vote: Tierce

Lets slice your bubble and see how you fall.

Stop being obtuse. I wasn't threatening you (since when do I threaten people?), I was voicing concerns about someone who is otherwise a rather obvious townread.

What do you think of Post 330?

[greenknight]

About half done with the reread, some other reads

Jason - Neutral. The main thing against him is defensiveness because a lot of his posts just say "WTF I am not fencesitting." I do think his emotional blowup at Grey is a slight town tell which brings the read back up to neutral. I don't agree with the fencesitting case. Feels like a compromise wagon in a situation where there's a lot of disagreement over what people find scummy atm though.

Kortul - Neutral, hard to read because of very cool/unemotional playstyle. Asked lots of questions, has taken a while to process the information. Started to post reads but nothing here strikes me as evidence of either a town or scum perspective yet. I think he's raised a good meta point regarding Zang/Grey which I'd like Zang to clarify.

Korlash - Town. Proactive. Don't agree with all his reasoning, but making an effort to post reads before likely replacing out is a strong town tell (he's been very active and not under suspicion - scum wouldn't need to bother.)

Acos - Neutral leaning suspicious. Early game consists of a bunch of sniping with little apparent direction to it, he doesn't really engage with others' arguments in the discussion concerning his suspects. Haven't gotten to his fight with T-bone yet.

[MagnaofIllusion]

T-Bone has been prodded.

[Acosmist]

Moreover, Grey case against Jason makes sense to me now. In post 229, GreyICE asked "Why did you want a 1v1 between me and Zang, Jason". Essentially that led to a:

See the thing is, Jason, if you don't believe the claim, but ALSO believe I might fakeclaim as town, there's no town motivation to vote Zang. If he does get quicklynched, does flip town, and the town does lynch me day 2 the game is essentially over - it'll be two days with zero information and a pile of dead townies.

There's a lot of scum motivation to do that though.

Instead of arguing Jason deflected this by asking for town motivation behind Grey initial claim, and avoided mentioning this afterwards as a point against himself.

This was not part of my case against Jason (I was thinking more of the tone of reactions to GreyICE) but this is an excellent substantive point. Yeah, definitely bumps Jason up. 10/10 would lynch

T-Bone, wo bist du?

[GreyICE]

Grey. Teamwork. Please.
You need to realize the fact that you're in a team and that the kortul wagon has no pull today, so move on to the next best case. Compromise.

I really don't like this blind tunneling and it makes me suspicious of you--yes, there is no commentary on jason's wagon on that post, but it's a weekend (when he said he would be V/LA) and kortul is ISOing people, as he said he would.

kortul will be back on the table tomorrow. Today, other fish are due on the frying pan.

-_-

Blind tunneling? Threatening me Tierce?

We're 8 days from deadline, I feel no deadline pressure.

Vote: Tierce

Lets slice your bubble and see how you fall.

Stop being obtuse. I wasn't threatening you (since when do I threaten people?), I was voicing concerns about someone who is otherwise a rather obvious townread.

What do you think of Post 330?

I hate ISO readthroughs in general, and #330 was pretty much no different than usual. He reiterated a bunch of stuff we already knew, which was that Jason is scummy and deserves to be lynched.

-_-

So, town-Tierce. Describe my play in Fate's game. Accurately.

[Tierce]

I know what you're talking about--your D1 play that had cooperation with the quadz lynch-plan while you tried to push on another players.
I'm aware that in this game you are doing much the same with jason; you're cooperating. I have a townread on you, it's not like you're acting that differently.

But I was never really alive in Destiny Mafia to comment on it as it went--I'm alive here, and asking you to

please

stop raging at kortul, there is little point in doing that today. Going "heeeeee's scuuuuuuum" is not going to convince anyone that he is, and it obviously does not draw reactions from him. He's not the kind of player who reacts to that (and the way he shrugs it off makes me think town who knows his play is just fine, tbqh). It's worsening the signal:noise ratio and not really doing anything at this stage.

You believe kortul is scum, I get it, there's no need to repeat it in allcaps in every post. I'll analyze it tomorrow with you, especially since I want to see how this works out with a potential jason scumflip. If you want to start analyzing aspects of his play now, go ahead, but I'd rather do that more thoroughly during night/tomorrow.

[Zang]

I did a quick double ISOs (Grey/Zang) in both games, and came to conclusion that the part that they don't like each other playstyle is true, but "usually want them lynched" is exaggeration. Also, last game finished like 9 months ago, so their relations aren't exactly fresh. That's why using this playstyle dislike as a reason to show that GreyICE claim is a lie now sounds to me like defensive discrediting of the claim just in case Grey is serious, and that is possible only if Zang is scum (Zang-town would know that claim a lie and there is no need to come up with extra reasons to explain that).

1. The fact that it was 9 months ago, is why I had such trouble remembring it.
2. I assumed that a reason behind it was the plastyle dislike because GreyICE said in his first post "I can't read his useless ass" and I thought that it was proven when he later said "Zang is actually town folks. What can I say Hate his guts still."
3. Also, I don't understand why I shouldn't have considered my dislike with GreyICE as still being relevant because as we can see in this game, he still plays very anti-town.

How the knowledge that Zang has a history with Grey is more important to him then the knowledge that he is town? When i saw this first time, i assumed that their games with Grey were recent and the hatred still fresh, but apparently that's not the case.

Why would I make a big deal about me being town? Obviously, the first thing that I thought of when I saw the claim was that it must must be a lie because I know that I'm town. However, nobody else can prove that I'm town. I thought that it would be more useful for me not to focus on saying that I'm town but to try and disprove his claim with things that can be proved such as my history with GreyICE.

Just to remind you, the claim of "I'm a daycop, I can't read his useless ass, so guess what I did?" was followed by "Zang is actually town folks". With such a wording it sounded like a second claim, Korlash and me asked about it, and as we know now Iecrint actually believed this to be a second claim. So, if Zang is town, who thinks that Grey did a claim because of history between them and the desire to lynch Zang, why hearing these words along with unvote he assumed that the whole cop thing wasn't real, not that he is conf town now?

If he just said that, then I might have thought differently. But he also called several other people town or scum. He obviously couldn't have investigated all of them. I thought that it was better to assume that the claim was fake which I thought before and that if it wan't, he would clarify it later because people such as you and Korlash already asked him about it.

I am comfortable with Zang and GreyICE.

What do you mean by comfortable?

And the main point for me is his general behavior. Jason is too defensive. I thought he needed time to answer accusations, but time passes and nothing changes, which is strange, considering that accusations are most of the time the same. Where's scumhunting? So far he attacked Grey (withdrew) and suspected Starbuck (changed to town without explanations). His scum pool changed, but no explanations yet.

This is actually a really good point about jason.

[Acosmist]

What do you mean by comfortable?

The substance of what you both posted makes sense coming from town, so I feel no uneasiness about either of you.

[GreyICE]

I know what you're talking about--your D1 play that had cooperation with the quadz lynch-plan while you tried to push on another players.
I'm aware that in this game you are doing much the same with jason; you're cooperating. I have a townread on you, it's not like you're acting that differently.

But I was never really alive in Destiny Mafia to comment on it as it went--I'm alive here, and asking you to

please

stop raging at kortul, there is little point in doing that today. Going "heeeeee's scuuuuuuum" is not going to convince anyone that he is, and it obviously does not draw reactions from him. He's not the kind of player who reacts to that (and the way he shrugs it off makes me think town who knows his play is just fine, tbqh). It's worsening the signal:noise ratio and not really doing anything at this stage.

You believe kortul is scum, I get it, there's no need to repeat it in allcaps in every post. I'll analyze it tomorrow with you, especially since I want to see how this works out with a potential jason scumflip. If you want to start analyzing aspects of his play now, go ahead, but I'd rather do that more thoroughly during night/tomorrow.

Well then, scum-Tierce, why don't you respond to my actual points on Kortul.

[Iecerint]

AFAICT Kortul equivocated on Jason until GreyICE grouched about it, whereupon Kortul stopped equivocating and called Jason scum.

This may be scummy regardless of Jason's alignment (i.e., because he may have been avoiding association with a mislynch or connections to a scumfriend -- relevant because this is different from Starbuck's case, where there was indifference rather than ambivalence toward Jason until someone grouched), but I don't get enough of a bad feeling about Kortul to justify moving from Jason.

[jasonT1981]

OK Time to justify my scum reads, sporry been at work quite a bit recently, this is the busiest week of the summer in Northern Ireland (12th July marching season) so things have been flat out. So here goes

Tierce.. I really do not like this post, it seems he is ready to base scum of claimed characters which seems like an easy ride

Also claiming to be Davros, not a good move...

Dude, the hell? xD
That's

definitely

not Davros. Think Unicorn and the Wasp.

Basing scum/town of characters I have found to never be a good idea in themes. Voting simply on names is not good

secondsly he was the one who pushed the fence sitting in the first place on me also this I think is a flag

Grey. Teamwork. Please.
You need to realize the fact that you're in a team and that the kortul wagon has no pull today, so move on to the next best case. Compromise..

What team would that be?



kortul, more a gut read. Sorry but want to address this

Just finished reassessing

jasonT1981

. Did the double ISOs Jason/Tierce and Jason/Korlash (since both Tierce and Korlash are my town reads, i am not going to do their ISOs anytime soon, and they have some walls with him, so reading such ISOs is easier), and then i had to do Jason/Grey ISO to carefully read their exchange (since most of the time they don't use quotes).

I have to admit that my read on Jason changed. There isn't one big thing pointing that Jason is scum, but there are several points that do accumulate in a scum read on him. And no, fence sitting isn't one of them.

When Jason did his 1v1 post, i took it more as a townish warning. In a recent dialogue with GreyICE he said, that it was done "to test just how serious your claim was" and farther commented "I was pushing you to see how truthful you were being", and looking back that changes things. It is no longer a townish warning, but anti-town pressing. If Jason really had no doubts that Grey is lying, then pushing if Grey is scum is rather silly, we don't want him to take the claim back, since 1v1 trade with scum benefits town. And pushing if Grey is town can have unpredictable results, given his playing style.

Moreover, Grey case against Jason makes sense to me now. In post 229, GreyICE asked "Why did you want a 1v1 between me and Zang, Jason". Essentially that led to a:

See the thing is, Jason, if you don't believe the claim, but ALSO believe I might fakeclaim as town, there's no town motivation to vote Zang. If he does get quicklynched, does flip town, and the town does lynch me day 2 the game is essentially over - it'll be two days with zero information and a pile of dead townies.

There's a lot of scum motivation to do that though.

Instead of arguing Jason deflected this by asking for town motivation behind Grey initial claim, and avoided mentioning this afterwards as a point against himself.

There's another example of foul defense, Korlash explained it in post 182. It was based on fence sitting discussion, so i just skimmed through this before, but after careful reading i don't see why there was a need to use such tricks, especially since i don't consider the initial points scummy.

And the main point for me is his general behavior. Jason is too defensive. I thought he needed time to answer accusations, but time passes and nothing changes, which is strange, considering that accusations are most of the time the same. Where's scumhunting? So far he attacked Grey (withdrew) and suspected Starbuck (changed to town without explanations). His scum pool changed, but no explanations yet.

VOTE: jasonT1981

My next ISOs would be on greenknight and Acosmist, hopefully tomorrow.

Yes, I am defensive, why? because I am being attacked...Attack someone, person defends, how the game works. I have already explained my vote and attack on Gray was frustration purely on his playstyle and how it pisses me off. When I calmed down, I realized my vote was not in a good place on Gray as it was more an emotional than logical vote.

Starbuck has changed due to more, and better posts. I am getting a more town feel from her as the game went on.
triangle123 - Did not like the jump on Greenknight, seemed forced
Acosmist - posts a lot but not seeing any real substance from him. seems to be saying things for sake of it rather than gen scum hunting.

middle of the road

GrayICE -playstyle pisses me off, hard to read so can be town or scum
Cryme a river - At time of this he needed to post more, going to ISO tomorrow


Town

Starbuck - posting has been better, and more helpful and genuie
GreenKnight - Seen fight with Korlash as town vs town
Ice - More a netural leaning town.
T-Bone - I li9ke a lot of his posts, I believe I covered them earlier in the game about how I found his posts town
Korlash - seen fight with him and GK as town vs town
Zang - Reaction to claim seemed town to me.

[jasonT1981]

I am missing someone, who am i missing?

[Iecerint]

I notice that Kortul isn't discussed?

[jasonT1981]

he is, read again. I messed up quotes, but he is in there

[GreyICE]

Fuck this.

Not a single one of Jason's posts reads with anything resembling genuine feeling. Not genuine defense, not genuine frustration, not genuine confusion, not genuine conviction, not genuine anything.

Last post said his feeling was that Zang was town due to his reaction to my claim.

Zang... the person he was voting... and wanted me to 1v1... was probably town... due to my claim.

Vote: JasonT1981

Fuck you scum-Tierce.

[jasonT1981]

Fuck this.

Not a single one of Jason's posts reads with anything resembling genuine feeling. Not genuine defense, not genuine frustration, not genuine confusion, not genuine conviction, not genuine anything.

Last post said his feeling was that Zang was town due to his reaction to my claim.

Zang... the person he was voting... and wanted me to 1v1... was probably town... due to my claim.

Zang - the person who my RVS vote was on.

Not a single onew of my reads resemling gen feeling? pot calling kettle black anyone?

L-1. Im VT, Jenny the Drs daughter. crumbed it a few times.

[greenknight]

Jason: why would you talk about my fight with Korlash (which was relatively small disagreement and we both read each other as town), and not Starbuck (we both reach each other as scum)?