Newbie 1,276 (Game over!)

[Cheery Dog]

Not knowing that scum can chat pregame, and only having read his own pm.
That game's scum pms said that pregame chat was alloweded and had got to night 1 in which the quicktopic said "stop talking now" before he had claimed that he didn't know scum could pregame chat.
Basically, I think the whole surprise thing was a forgery.
VOTE: Paschendale

[JasonWazza]

I don't think Jason's scum-read on Maggot is scum-motivated, but it definitely seems off-base because her interation with Pasch early on more or less clears her (based on the scum-chat before the game confimation).

I don't think anyone is cleared from that interaction and here is why

As a passive observer i could have told you that scum had N0 chat

However i doubt whoever was scum would have mentioned it

at all

because mostly only scum would know about it.

So i figure any scum would have kept going back and forth rather then actually say there was N0 talk.

No one was cleared from that interaction in my mind

Cherry i have been saying that since D1.

But what is to say he actually read the full PM or even that he didn't just gloss over that part, and you could still not realize that there is N0 chat.

The entire interaction over N0 chat was a null tell, and was simply over game mechanics nothing more.

Also i have to ask, why the vote for paschendale over ewo?

Just seems a little off to me, you seem to have more on ewo, and the entire Paschendale case is over game mechanics and isn't that solid, it wasn't D1 and it isn't now.

[Cheery Dog]

Your mind is different to my mind, I had cleared him because of his answers to my questioning, however with what I had just discovered it uncleared him.

My vote is on him because looking back at the previous plays, I find him to be the more scummier.

[Paschendale]

Not knowing that scum can chat pregame, and only having read his own pm.
That game's scum pms said that pregame chat was alloweded and had got to night 1 in which the quicktopic said "stop talking now" before he had claimed that he didn't know scum could pregame chat.
Basically, I think the whole surprise thing was a forgery.
VOTE: Paschendale

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/LBNW6qPSbHLw

Here's the quicktopic. Notice a lack of talking before the game started. I didn't even know we had the option to do that until you said it right now. My partner didn't either. I didn't even look at the quicktopic until night 1 started. That was my first time as scum on this site, and that game started before we had the nice little argument here. If anything, that is proof that I was certain and honest in my claim about no night 0 talking.

But either way, that's your takeaway from day 1? Nothing about a scummy choice I made, or a bad argument. Just a misunderstood fact. No analysis of how that mistake fueled an anti-town play of any kind, nor how it supposedly helped me pursue a lynch on a townie. Oh wait, I did none of those things. No one has yet suggested how that argument as a gamble on my part would be helpful or sensible in any way. It would be high risk and almost negligible reward, since I had to be wrong about something to end it. You voted along with me for Wiibox. Did you find my reasons thin? Do you have something of substance to comment on?

Or is this just to make people not look at you over the D1 wagon?

[Cheery Dog]

You replied to that QT before that argument began - while my timezone I've set here may be out from QT, I can translate.
MissMaggot brought up scipted discussion on "Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:17 pm"
you posted in your QT on "08-19-2012 11:27 PM ET (US)"

My timezone is not 24 hours ahead of US. (I think it's around 13 and a half).

but anyway my point is that it's now invalid and you were the scummiest person in my mind that was on the wagon.

I'm also placing you most likely to be with ewo because of your unvote and flip onto the wii wagon, you pressured Wii into declaring intent to hammer and then withdrew your vote on ewo because he admitted a mistake - which happened before Wii's intent to hammer.

I sadly didn't notice that yesterday because I had read wii as scum and ewo as town, however now that Wii flipped town, it just looks wrong.

[Paschendale]

You replied to that QT before that argument began - while my timezone I've set here may be out from QT, I can translate.
MissMaggot brought up scipted discussion on "Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:17 pm"
you posted in your QT on "08-19-2012 11:27 PM ET (US)"

Which, if you read it, would show that no one besides the mod posted in it until night 1.

What exactly makes me look scummier than City, who you spent a lot of effort arguing in favor of lynching?

[Cheery Dog]

Because you were on a known town wagon, City was on an unknown wagon.

and I did read it, the mods 2nd post made it clear that you could have had pregame chat.

[Paschendale]

Because you were on a known town wagon, City was on an unknown wagon.

You were on it, too. And you hammered it. My vote was the third on it, and became the second after you unvoted. Got anything on me that doesn't apply to you as well?

and I did read it, the mods 2nd post made it clear that you could have had pregame chat.

And yet you fail to realize that nothing there shows or even suggests that I or my partner even looked at the QT until night 1. You're reaching really hard to prove duplicity where a simple mistake is by far the simpler and more likely answer. Plus you still offer no explanation as to how any kind of duplicity here would actually benefit me, and then nothing to show that there's scum motivation, rather than town motivation, to do so. The whole argument was about MissMaggot going after me half-cocked. Nobody, town or scum, should let themselves get swept up in something like that. So, you haven't proved duplicity. You haven't proved how duplicity would help me. And you haven't proved that duplicity there is more likely scum than not. You're chasing shadows here, and reaching conclusions wholly unfounded by any evidence.

And if this was all just what tipped you over the scale, what put you there in the first place? Just that I was on the wagon that flipped down? And yet you can't or won't cite anything else to show that my vote was less honest than any of the other 4 votes on the wagon.

[Cheery Dog]

Night 1 happened there before the mod confirmed pregame chat existed here, therefore you would know of games where it does exist, while it means you wouldn't have had pregame chat this game, it does mean you should have known about it when you claimed you were surprised it existed here.

I also did say why I felt your vote was the least honest

you pressured Wii into declaring intent to hammer and then withdrew your vote on ewo because he admitted a mistake - which happened before Wii's intent to hammer.

[HerrRudi]

Pasch the only problem with your assertion that Cheery was on it too was the fact that Cheery is probably the most unanimous town read we have (at least he is in my book). Nhammen even said he was a good person to pass the hammer to, and I agree with that.

That said Pasch/Ewo scum team highly unlikely since Pasch was on a wagon on Ewo that got to L-1. Pasch even asked for the claim without unvoting after Wii said he'd hammer. I'm not feeling it because of that.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Pasch the only problem with your assertion that Cheery was on it too was the fact that Cheery is probably the most unanimous town read we have (at least he is in my book). Nhammen even said he was a good person to pass the hammer to, and I agree with that.

That said Pasch/Ewo scum team highly unlikely since Pasch was on a wagon on Ewo that got to L-1. Pasch even asked for the claim without unvoting after Wii said he'd hammer. I'm not feeling it because of that.

Agree that Cheery isn't scum.

Disagree with the Pasch =/= ewopartnerscum based on bussing. Pasch could've thought that Ewo was for sure dying yesterday and voted to get town points. And asking for a claim pre-hammer is just good SEing, since a newbie held the hammer.

[Paschendale]

Agree that Cheery isn't scum.

I never suggested he was. I'm more intrigued by HerrRudi's response to the no night kills. We all know what the possibilities are, and we all know that there's no way to verify any of them without a town power role claiming. A claim at this point would be entirely pointless and detrimental to town. Ewo's comment about Rudi role fishing raised my eyebrows, far more than CD's silly notions here.

Disagree with the Pasch =/= ewopartnerscum based on bussing. Pasch could've thought that Ewo was for sure dying yesterday and voted to get town points. And asking for a claim pre-hammer is just good SEing, since a newbie held the hammer.

So how do you distinguish that from a genuine vote? From what you're saying here and what CD has been saying, I've been doing a lot of stuff that's not particularly indicative of alignment, and just saying "what if it's because he's scum" without showing any real reason to think one alignment is more likely than the other. The flip is the only thing, and mislynch wagons full of townies are to be expected in this game. So that puts me at a null tell, but on the bad wagon. Worthy of some examination? Sure. Likely scum? Not so much.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I'm not saying it's not a genuine vote, but he's trying to clear you for it. I don't think you're worthy of any townpoints based on what he was saying.

As for the ewo/rudi power discussion, it made me nervous but I didn't see anything particularly scummy. Nhammen's assertion that we should massclaim makes me far more nervous.

[Paschendale]

As for the ewo/rudi power discussion, it made me nervous but I didn't see anything particularly scummy. Nhammen's assertion that we should massclaim makes me far more nervous.

Yeah, it's a bit weird. Since the setup is known, there aren't really any surprises to be had. The doc/jk can, at most, clear one additional person (the one who was targeted last night). Maybe it could be useful later on (like if the same thing happens again night 2 - not likely), but now would be a bad time for it.

[HerrRudi]

For the record, I forgot jailkeeper was part doctor. If I'd have recalled that then the whole discussion I wanted to start would have been moot and obviously claim is bad. But if we switched jailkeeper to straight roleblocker, I'd stand by wanting to discuss if RB should claim or not since we could get a scum lynch, it's just at a cost. This risk-reward situation would have merited discussion.

That's the best clarification I have there. Noobish mistake on my part. Anyways now back to the game. I can clarify any points if anyone desire anymore.

P-Edit: Agree with you Pasch, but mostly on grounds that optimal play for scum would probably be just claim vanilla townie. Also it's pretty tight with 6 possibilities (now 5) as a semi open so we can have a good guess. I'm not against it on principle I just don't see many situations where we benefit from it.

[ewo2]

@Cheery - Wtf? You've played a very solid town game up until your past few posts - now I'm beginning to wonder. How does being on a town wagon mean you're automatically more likely to be scum? It depends on the context and in this case Wii played a very scummy game, so there is really nothing scummy about being on his wagon. You also asserted that either myself or wii were scum simply because we were the two players being wagoned. As you can plainly see from our lynch results, town players can be seen as scum. Also, how are you voting pasch right now if his being scum is contingent on me being scum? What the heck happened to your town play? Your reasoning has crumbled to crap D2.

Herr is appealing to authority when she says that Cheery's hammer was automatically less significant simply because our IC said so. The IC could be scum.

Finally, I think it's a terrible idea to be discussing power roles right now and I'm glad we stopped. I see no advantage to massclaim right now and I think nh's contradiction of his own advice is another indicator that he's a scum IC. Feeding advice then contradicting it when it would benefit his agenda.

I'm pretty shaky on reads right now so I won't list them until my thoughts are cleared up. For now I'll move my vote back to nh for the above reason. Massclaim, lol.

VOTE: nhammen

[CityElectric]

If he flips scum the other scum is most likely to be on the ewo2 wagon, if he flips town ewo2 is probably scum and the other is also on the wiibox wagon.

What happened to this logic? You're voting Pasch, instead of ewo, who, by this logic is more likely to be scum than Pasch.

VOTE COUNT

ewo2 (4): nhammen, JohnnyFarrar, CityElectric, Wiibox3

Wiibox3 (5): JasonWazza, Paschendale, HerrRudi, ewo2, Cheery Dog

Here's the final vote count. Assume for a second that you are town and you are right and ewo is scum and the other scum is on the wii wagon. You have a 25% of hitting scum by voting someone on the wii wagon (statistically speaking), and 100% by voting ewo. Why not vote for ewo then? And, if you don't believe in this logic anymore, what made you think otherwise?

[CityElectric]

Ahem, I should read all pages before posting. Still, it's interesting. Even if you consider a Pasch/ewo scum team, why not go after ewo?

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

nhammen (1): ewo2
Paschendale (1): Cheery Dog
Not voting (6): CityElectric, HerrRudi, JasonWazza, JohnnyFarrar, nhammen, Paschendale

With

8

players alive, it takes

5

players to lynch.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2012-10-03 20:31:48).

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery - Wtf? You've played a very solid town game up until your past few posts - now I'm beginning to wonder. How does being on a town wagon mean you're automatically more likely to be scum? It depends on the context and in this case Wii played a very scummy game, so there is really nothing scummy about being on his wagon. You also asserted that either myself or wii were scum simply because we were the two players being wagoned. As you can plainly see from our lynch results, town players can be seen as scum. Also, how are you voting pasch right now if his being scum is contingent on me being scum? What the heck happened to your town play? Your reasoning has crumbled to crap D2.

With 2 wagons at full stretch, I just don't see one of them, which goes to a lynch, being full of town players.
It's not contingent on you being scum, just because I saw the possibly of the team doesn't mean it has to be the case.
My vote on Pasch is there because I believe his surprise was undignified.

If he flips scum the other scum is most likely to be on the ewo2 wagon, if he flips town ewo2 is probably scum and the other is also on the wiibox wagon.

What happened to this logic? You're voting Pasch, instead of ewo, who, by this logic is more likely to be scum than Pasch.

VOTE COUNT

ewo2 (4): nhammen, JohnnyFarrar, CityElectric, Wiibox3

Wiibox3 (5): JasonWazza, Paschendale, HerrRudi, ewo2, Cheery Dog

Here's the final vote count. Assume for a second that you are town and you are right and ewo is scum and the other scum is on the wii wagon. You have a 25% of hitting scum by voting someone on the wii wagon (statistically speaking), and 100% by voting ewo. Why not vote for ewo then? And, if you don't believe in this logic anymore, what made you think otherwise?

Ahem, I should read all pages before posting. Still, it's interesting. Even if you consider a Pasch/ewo scum team, why not go after ewo?

Probably =/= 100%. (and neither does more likely)
The logic is still there, however I believe there is a better case to be had on Pasch.

[JasonWazza]

Pasch the only problem with your assertion that Cheery was on it too was the fact that Cheery is probably the most unanimous town read we have (at least he is in my book). Nhammen even said he was a good person to pass the hammer to, and I agree with that.

I would have agreed D1 but honestly his play today is kinda just poor and it makes me feel like he was thrown off balance by the no kill (not sure if that is a null tell or a scum tell in my mind yet).

Finally, I think it's a terrible idea to be discussing power roles right now and I'm glad we stopped. I see no advantage to massclaim right now and I think nh's contradiction of his own advice is another indicator that he's a scum IC. Feeding advice then contradicting it when it would benefit his agenda.

I'm pretty shaky on reads right now so I won't list them until my thoughts are cleared up. For now I'll move my vote back to nh for the above reason. Massclaim, lol.

VOTE: nhammen

I agree the mass claim bit is horrible for town (he may think there is an underlying positive for all we know), but is it really worth a vote, i mean seriously?

I don't really think this vote is worth it and i think you are trying to find the easiest thing to jump on as early as possible.

Still a little unsure where to put my vote right now, cause i am struggling to tell if it's just poor play or scum play for now.

and i don't do that well at VCA at all.

[HerrRudi]

Going V/LA to Sunday evening. Will post again then

[ewo2]

@Cheery - there's close to a 50-50 chance of one wagon or the other having scum on it if there are two scum and nearly all players are on one wagon or the other. I don't see how this proves anything relative to scum behavior since it's just simple odds.

@Jason - my vote obviously includes previous indicators that the dude is scum. I misread one of the cases I made against nh but that doesn't mean I would completely abandon my suspicion. And how is calling out the IC that everyone considers townish a safe move?

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery - there's close to a 50-50 chance of one wagon or the other having scum on it if there are two scum and nearly all players are on one wagon or the other. I don't see how this proves anything relative to scum behavior since it's just simple odds.

It doesn't prove anything, what I've said is just my bet on these odds. The only think that can prove if it was right or not is the flips.

[StrangerCoug]

Bumping over the count.