In post 324, MarioManiac4 wrote:i dislike io wagon because occam's razor is a thing
it's more likely io just has a cold and calculating playstyle than scum using a claim to be a VI to elaborately jump on the wagon than to jump on for the scummy things QR has done.
also the wagon composition is pretty horrible.
Not really unless you can show us that's her town meta. I have a feeling you can't but I'll humor you. How much experience do you have with her if any?
Also I think there are fruit hanging way lower than Io. Why does Quantum as scum push on her as opppsed to BTD, Chickadee, or even Flairs?
Who other than Quantum do you take issue with being on the wagon?
In post 324, MarioManiac4 wrote:i dislike io wagon because occam's razor is a thing
it's more likely io just has a cold and calculating playstyle than scum using a claim to be a VI to elaborately jump on the wagon than to jump on for the scummy things QR has done.
also the wagon composition is pretty horrible.
Not really unless you can show us that's her town meta. I have a feeling you can't but I'll humor you. How much experience do you have with her if any?
Also I think there are fruit hanging way lower than Io. Why does Quantum as scum push on her as opppsed to BTD, Chickadee, or even Flairs?
Who other than Quantum do you take issue with being on the wagon?
Honestly you of all people should know my playstyle since you've played with me and I don't change how I play as town or scum.
In post 324, MarioManiac4 wrote:i dislike io wagon because occam's razor is a thing
it's more likely io just has a cold and calculating playstyle than scum using a claim to be a VI to elaborately jump on the wagon than to jump on for the scummy things QR has done.
also the wagon composition is pretty horrible.
Not really unless you can show us that's her town meta. I have a feeling you can't but I'll humor you. How much experience do you have with her if any?
Also I think there are fruit hanging way lower than Io. Why does Quantum as scum push on her as opppsed to BTD, Chickadee, or even Flairs?
Who other than Quantum do you take issue with being on the wagon?
Honestly you of all people should know my playstyle since you've played with me and I don't change how I play as town or scum.
But really I don't see how my playstyle factors into the argument, because it's an argument about philosophy more than anything.
If anyone's playstyle would be taken into account it would be QR's since he claims to do a lot of VI reaction tests.
@LUV I actually realized I think you were a player in a game I hosted. Sorry about that. I just only recognize you and BTD from this player list.
i never claimed that I do reaction tests a lot
I just pulled it off while I was disappointed with what came out of the interactions in the early game and decided to generate some content
"
Everything
we call real is made up of things that cannot be regarded as real.
If
Wait LUV so you're telling me that unless I have a history of playing with Io I cannot look at her ISO and make a reasonable judgement of whether she is cold or calculating or not? Where does meta come into this?
BTD and Flairs are too inactive to push, and Chickadee isn't low-hanging fruit. Also, there is no possible momentum on any of those, whereas Io was generally suspected.
I take issue with Kop, QD, Chickadee and Sesq.
The issue is that Mario is claiming that its more likely that you and/or the average person has a cold calculating play style than someone doing the kind of the reaction test Quantum did at this stage of the game: I find that highly unlikely considering his join date unless you and him have some sort of relationship or his mafia career has consisted of constantly encountering people with that play style.
In post 331, MarioManiac4 wrote:Wait LUV so you're telling me that unless I have a history of playing with Io I cannot look at her ISO and make a reasonable judgement of whether she is cold or calculating or not? Where does meta come into this?
BTD and Flairs are too inactive to push, and Chickadee isn't low-hanging fruit. Also, there is no possible momentum on any of those, whereas Io was generally suspected.
I take issue with Kop, QD, Chickadee and Sesq.
You made it with a certainty that seems like you know for sure or have extensive experience with her.
Io was only generally suspected by me before her wagon picked up so I disagree there.
I'm saying that, I'm looking at Io's ISO, especially the part where she basically tells Radius they're an idiot for claiming Kawso scumslipped, and thinking, "Yeah, it's much, much more likely that this is just Io than that this is indicative of Io!scum"
In post 336, MarioManiac4 wrote:I'm saying that, I'm looking at Io's ISO, especially the part where she basically tells Radius they're an idiot for claiming Kawso scumslipped, and thinking, "Yeah, it's much, much more likely that this is just Io than that this is indicative of Io!scum"
Yeah but why you're basing that on such little supporting evidence? I think town are more likely to at least meta dive her a bit just to be sure.
In post 331, MarioManiac4 wrote:Wait LUV so you're telling me that unless I have a history of playing with Io I cannot look at her ISO and make a reasonable judgement of whether she is cold or calculating or not? Where does meta come into this?
BTD and Flairs are too inactive to push, and Chickadee isn't low-hanging fruit. Also, there is no possible momentum on any of those, whereas Io was generally suspected.
I take issue with Kop, QD, Chickadee and Sesq.
You made it with a certainty that seems like you know for sure or have extensive experience with her.
Io was only generally suspected by me before her wagon picked up so I disagree there.
Why do you suspect those players?
I'm pretty sure I didn't; and even as scum, I wouldn't be sure anyway, so that's not really a point at all.
Kop appears every once in a while to vote a wagon. Town sheeping? Scum wagon-hopping? N0 Global Neapolitan Serial Killer? I don't know. But what I do know is that I want to see some original content from him.
QuantumRadius is actually townier now. I still think that 112 is completely and utterly horrid (and also a very possible scumbuddy interaction.) , although this game is dead them claiming to have no reads whatsoever is extremely sketchy. Though their enthusiasm to get reads in the "rxn test" seems somewhat towny.
I've been over Chickadee.
Sesq has done jackshit.
In post 336, MarioManiac4 wrote:I'm saying that, I'm looking at Io's ISO, especially the part where she basically tells Radius they're an idiot for claiming Kawso scumslipped, and thinking, "Yeah, it's much, much more likely that this is just Io than that this is indicative of Io!scum"
Yeah but why you're basing that on such little supporting evidence? I think town are more likely to at least meta dive her a bit just to be sure.
You're trying to tell me that Io would completely change her personality and tone in a game where old games are freely available to view just because she got a red Role PM and therefore I need to look at other games?
I can understand Sesq though, hard not to scum read her sometimes.
And no I'm saying that you clearly don't know for sure so it's strange you're this confident. I can understand if you had looked at some past games or that you claimed to have played a few games with her and determined that she's probably like this. But you did neither, so I'm very wary.
In post 341, MarioManiac4 wrote:Like what does metaing even change? It's not something alignment would change, so what is the point?
I'm not sure I understand these questions but I'll do my best.
Meta can help reinforce or doubt what you feel is more likely right now. It's a very strong tool when used correctly and unless you have a vendetta against it, I don't see why you wouldn't at least try to use it, especially in this setup where feeling better about your reads can go a long way.
How about no. He's at L-2, well now L-3, and I'm not particularly fond of having someone at L-1 or L-2 for a rvs.
Because heaven knows someone will lolhammer on accident.
In post 284, Io wrote:I was. I thought it was a joke to want to lynch someone on not having reads 2 days into day 1.
In post 289, Io wrote:Well there's your problem.
You can't just rely on night actions to make reads.
Especially in this game that is strictly made of vanilla.
i can make reads in a vanilla game
they're just terrible.
but whatever, ill look anyway
So...In essence your defense for the accusation is that you're just not good at scumhunting?
I mean I know this is going to sound rather mean, but you're not really presenting a good case to not kill you because it sounds like there isn't a huge loss if you're lynched.
If you're scum then it's a pretty lucky lynch, and if you're town you're pretty much saying you wouldn't be very good help late game aside from being contribution for majority.
So. VOTE: Quantum
Sorry if you're town, but I would just say you would need to work on like reading up on some Mafia Theory maybe or try reading up on games you were town in and see where Mafia slipped up and how to notice when a Mafia slips up.
Contradiction one. Lets analyze this one by one, shall we?
First she says that she isnt comfortable having someone at L-2 for a RVS. Fair point. If it was true. She already mentioned that she didnt realize we were out of RVS, but it should have been obvious to anyone keeping up with the game, and if not the game, the damned post count. No game of this caliber has a rvs that lasts until post 280.
Why is this post important? Because she is intentionally trying to steer herself away from any unforeseen consequences (the possible "lolhammer" that will never happen in a L-2). If she really cared about pushing the game forward, she'd have put her foot down and pushed QR harder till he squeezed. Instead she just backs off, saying "isnt it rvs" when its pretty clear by all means it isnt.
And again, her second post proves that she isnt keeping up with the game, with her mindless push on LUV for a post that was posted at least a few pages before that, and now the 2 days comment. I just isod her and she keeps coming back. We just dont notice it all that much because she really doesnt have anything productive to say. Shes just passing by to vote, or throw shade, without following the game.
I think post #163 should've been a clear indicator we were out of RVS, but she still brings it up as a reason to not vote someone, even though she was just voting lil uzi. Whatever.
And then in her last post, he just outright votes QR without any plan on what to do next, with her reasoning being "there isnt much to lose" and "he probably wont be that usefull late game" which is just bullshit coming from someone who wasnt even confident in putting someone in L-2 10 posts ago.
Why is this noteworthy? Because if she was town, she wouldnt be trying to lynch QR instantly, instead trying to squeeze him for information as i said. In her case, she isnt giving QR any room for defense, and is just trying to get an easy lynch in. If we lynch QR now, we will get literally no information out of him apart from his few reads, which is exactly what mafia wants. Exactly what IO wants.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Io
I'm going to play some age of empires, then i'll come and explain her second contradiction.
I am looking at Io in particular here, and whether Dongempire's supposed contradiction is actually a contradiction.
I can understand what Dongempire means about it not being RVS. However, RVS is a vague term. At the very start of the game, where barely anyone has posted, this is definitely RVS. Later into the game, when people provide comprehensive cases, this is definitely out of RVS. However, there is a "grey area" where people disagree about RVS. At some points, some people might say that there is game-related content, but it is all NAI, in which case they may or may not call it RVS. This may be what Io is doing here, although even this may be false. Nevertheless, wrong does not imply scummy.
Lolhammers do happen. I have been lolhammered once in RVS (actual RVS). That said, they are rare. It has only happened once as far as I can remember, and that game had only 7 players, meaning it was a lot easier to lolhammer accidentally when there are fewer votes to lynch. In this game, it would be unlikely. Io's fears are likely irrational, but that in itself doesn't make it scummy.
If Io fears a lolhammer, they would likely not want to squeeze QR by pushing them in RVS. Not all RVS necessarily involves large wagons in order to escape from it. As Town, this would naturally stem from their mental state (that of fearing a hammer).
I don't see the second post as pushing LUV, nor was Io voting LUV at the time of that post. You may need to elaborate a bit more on that.
The third post is more interesting.
Io pushes QR for saying that reads they do make are terrible. Now, Io has just said that they should not be expected to develop reads in "RVS". If Town have a principle, they are more likely to follow their own principle as if they think something is scummy when others do it they would think that it is scummy when they do it and vice versa (barring meta). Scum are looking for mislynches. They want to get out of their own lynch (excluding bussing) and want to find an excuse to lynch someone else. Scum do not need to maintain the same standards for them and others. They can achieve their aims by essentially being hypocritical. Of course, they want to avoid this as they may get called out for it but they may slip up when trying to push someone.
Here, Io is essentially going against what I presumed was their Town mental state (that it was RVS and they should avoid lolhammers). This could still come from Town, but this post is more likely to come from scum Io.
Overall, this case is weaker than Dongempire might think, but it does contain something of value.
Io is currently a mild scumread of mine. I will analyse the rest of the votes on Io, though.
"one of these days i'll read you correctly" - Transcend, Micro 714
In post 343, BTD6_maker wrote:Io pushes QR for saying that reads they do make are terrible. Now, Io has just said that they should not be expected to develop reads in "RVS". If Town have a principle, they are more likely to follow their own principle as if they think something is scummy when others do it they would think that it is scummy when they do it and vice versa (barring meta). Scum are looking for mislynches. They want to get out of their own lynch (excluding bussing) and want to find an excuse to lynch someone else. Scum do not need to maintain the same standards for them and others. They can achieve their aims by essentially being hypocritical. Of course, they want to avoid this as they may get called out for it but they may slip up when trying to push someone.
Here, Io is essentially going against what I presumed was their Town mental state (that it was RVS and they should avoid lolhammers). This could still come from Town, but this post is more likely to come from scum Io.
This is pretty much just flar out wrong.
It was clear I voted QR because he said he was flat out not going to make reads which as I explained in 296 why him refusing to put effort into making reads is horrible for the town regardless of his alignment.
Also me voting someone with a valid reason is not hypocritical as I said I wan't going to lynch someone or let them get lynched in RVS. And voting someone with a valid reason is the exact opposite of RVS.
