Mini 2251: Triplicate! GAME OVER!

[Jingle]

So, we autowin regardless of whether Alyssa votes out Titus or Mastina? But if both Mastina and Titus vote Alyssa, wouldn’t we have lost?

Yes.

Technically, either mastina or alyssa could have refused the joint win and tried to win solo, in which case Titus was Kingmaker. Town could not have won the 1v1v1.

[Amy Dunne]

*takes note of Amy pocketing me for future reference*

Nah, that’s actually a really bad take. I base my reads similarly to what I’d do as town.

Also keep in mind I was simultaneously trying to win both games and I was town in A. It was Cheeky this time not you, who successfully pocketed me.

[Jingle]

Scum have mod perms in their PTs for redactions as per usual. I'll make them public in ~48 hours. I'll publish the secret alt thread later (and I guess the vote PT, but it is literally just voting).

[Jingle]

It might force setups to be more Townsided though which I'm far less enthused about

Site meta is pretty townsided, atm. I feel like scum being able to vent to their partners might help with the issue of people not enjoying playing scum and thus shutting down with a red PM which is a big factor in the townsidedness of site meta.

Overall, I think it has the potential to be a shift like the shift from night chat to day chat, where there were growing pains but Night chat is almost universally considered worse now.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

Tbh anything that makes serious setups more scumsided are welcomed

Townsided games are inherently less fun imo

[Alyssa The Lamb]

As both alignments

[Jingle]

Also sorry about my balance complaints about the mini theme in the scum PT.

ngl, your complaints about the game being townsided when town was in basically autolose territory were pretty funny to me.

[Amy Dunne]

guilties scum not based on play

Wagon analyzer doesn't provide immediate guilties. It makes PoE pools.

Like, the results from the first wagon said there were at least 2 scum on wagon prior to claims. The knowledge you had as scum implied it would make a 1v1 between Dwlee and Demon Lord, with CT as conftown before any other claims.

Specifically, it's incredibly powerful because of it's ability to make PoE pools, but it is actually less prone to making non play related mech guilties than most investigative roles.

The wagon analyzer is explicitly a very very powerful role, but flat guilties is not at all the problem with it.

But my point still stands: with any one of tracker/watcher/AC, your play has a direct connection to you possibly being inno’d or guiltied.

With tracker/AC, it’s because the wrong player sr you and with watcher, because you got caught but with WA, you get guiltied for doing nothing that either makes anyone suspicious of you and don’t get caught killing anyone.

Basically I got lucky not being on Meg but I had to vote on Dunn because damned if you do, damned if you don’t, pretty much and I found that to be extremely unfair.

I think RR talking to me like I was town while calling me confiscum helped, as did him referencing Dwlee’s spamming in hood, because it made his mech guilty on me less credible. Also, the way he kept going on and on about how scum!him no kills, made him looked informed.

I almost didn’t add Ircher to the hood. I could have handled it differently but I just didn’t want to be a part of any hoods if I could help it, especially since it wasn’t necessary because both RCE and Dwlee had guaranteed access to it, even if I endgamed, so my being in it wasn’t necessary.

[Amy Dunne]

So, we autowin regardless of whether Alyssa votes out Titus or Mastina? But if both Mastina and Titus vote Alyssa, wouldn’t we have lost?

Yes.

Technically, either mastina or alyssa could have refused the joint win and tried to win solo, in which case Titus was Kingmaker. Town could not have won the 1v1v1.

Right, so if either Mastina or Alyssa gets greedy for some inexplicable reason, there’s a solo win? That’s whack.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

I initially rejected it because I misunderstood something jingle said

[Amy Dunne]

It might force setups to be more Townsided though which I'm far less enthused about

Site meta is pretty townsided, atm. I feel like scum being able to vent to their partners might help with the issue of people not enjoying playing scum and thus shutting down with a red PM which is a big factor in the townsidedness of site meta.

Overall, I think it has the potential to be a shift like the shift from night chat to day chat, where there were growing pains but Night chat is almost universally considered worse now.

The absolute worst thing for scum is not having daychat, another thing I wouldn’t approve of as any alignment. Basically setups need to make things less shitty for scum in general. You’re allowing dead scum to post is a start.
But playing scum needs to be more fun, then you would probably see less replace outs as scum.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

Pushing town to using roles that are only conditionally strong will also help

Making town use roles to augment their in-thread deduction is very healthy for the game, and it should be very hard to get enough info from PRs to basically replace the actual social deduction or at least to make it really easy

[Alyssa The Lamb]

Like there was a pandemic of setups with loyal neighborizer a couple of years ago and it was absolutely horrific

That's basically a better cop

[T3]

Oh, if people could weigh in on the experimental mechanics I'd appreciate it:

Persistent scumchat (dead scum can still post in their factional PT) is a low utility but +fun mechanic imo and I don't think it would necessarily be a bad site meta shift. It's also not a major departure from expected mechanics.

Triplicate seems popular, but also seems like it might exacerbate gamestates with thread lag.

Open threads at night seem pretty meh, tbh. I don't know that they're bad, but it definitely didn't see a lot of use in this case.

ehhhh idk

[Jingle]

your play has a direct connection to you possibly being inno’d or guiltied.

This is also true of the wagon analyzer. Basically your complaint is that you don't like mechanically intensive setups, which is a fine complaint. I in fact tend not to extend specific invitations regarding games that are going to be heavily mechanically oriented to you because I know that's not really the part of the game you're into. I know you tend to favor the day play and more vanilla setups, so I'm more likely to suggest those types of games to you when they come up. In this case I didn't really make the distinction because I knew you'd enjoyed ELSM and between the three setups I thought that there was enough to appeal to just about everyone (who enjoys mafia). I was intentionally shooting to have a complex night game (the Mini theme), a simpler night game (the Normal) and a meme-y game (Dayvigs! Dayvigs Everywhere!).

Manipulating wagon comp to your advantage is 100% a skill that helps scum, even without this type of role. While it is certainly true that your team didn't play around the knowledge that there was a wagon cop in the early game, that doesn't mean it's not possible for a scum team to play around that knowledge.

I also think that you overestimated exactly how scary the role was, despite it being pretty damn scary in the first place (there is a reason that it was basically the entirety of the town power base), because it isn't a straightforward role and both playing it and playing around it aren't the easiest things in the world to do.

[Jingle]

Actually, the comparison to watcher is very apt.

Watcher generates guilties by town playing well and being recognized as town, and punishes scum for making what would otherwise be a good play (killing strong town voices). It is a ridiculously powerful role and should not be used in many instances. When it is used one should always be careful how it is used.

The wagon analysis role is both harder to manipulate to use well and potentially more dangerous to scum, which is why there was literally a third of the game devoted to mitigating its impact.

[Jingle]

Btw in case any of you are interested in meme-y setups I'm in queue with a mostly vanilla open in the mini theme queue and a jester setup in the micros. I've also got a large open based on dancegame that I'm going to be looking to polish and run sometime soon.

[Jingle]

I almost didn’t add Ircher to the hood. I could have handled it differently but I just didn’t want to be a part of any hoods if I could help it, especially since it wasn’t necessary because both RCE and Dwlee had guaranteed access to it, even if I endgamed, so my being in it wasn’t necessary.

I think you used the neighborizer just fine, although I think it would definitely have been a mistake for RCE to claim neighborizor like you considered because then if you flipped he was sunk.

One of the things the role could have done would be to set up a false guilty in a pool by making an all town neighborhood, implying scum would be in it if/when you flipped. I also think it could have been a very strongly town AI claim if you'd played it slightly differently, but I don't think that's necessarily a better use of the role, just a different one. I liked it as a scum role because there were a bunch of different options as to how one could use it best and I don't think any of them were a "correct" option.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

Btw in case any of you are interested in meme-y setups I'm in queue with a mostly vanilla open in the mini theme queue and a jester setup in the micros. I've also got a large open based on dancegame that I'm going to be looking to polish and run sometime soon.

let me know when you have the dance setup finished

if I believe it fixes my issues with how the large ones function, I'll probably in for it

[Jingle]

No reason not to say what it is:

Poly dance.

No IC
Dance groups leave if they're voted by a majority of living dance groups or they are reduced to less than 2 players
2 players iced out in the pregame
No gender lines for dance proposals
Players may leave individually but don't necessarily kill their partners unless that would leave the group at less than 2 people
Scum win if they are in half of all extant dance groups or final deadline hits.

I still need to polish the numbers, method by which people join a dance group, whether I want scum to have a kill (plus whether it's a single player or entire group kill) and voting mechanics, but that's not a ton of work. I'm just waiting on a few things before I bother to put in finishing touch work for it.

(My rough numbers atm are 16v4 but I feel that's probably a little scumsided.)

[Alyssa The Lamb]

huh

so groups can be more than 2 people? how do those work?

[Jingle]

Say you me and Amy are one dance group, House and Titus are another, and mastina RR Taly and CT are a third.

If there is scum on 2/3 groups, scum would win, but if all of mastina RR Taly and CT were scum they wouldn't win, even if I left, because the wincon would be based on the number of teams containing scum, not the number of scum.

I could leave the dance, but since our group would still have 2 people you and Amy would still be in the dance. If you then left, Amy would leave too because no one can dance alone.

If you, amy and I all voted mastina team, it would only be one team voting mastina team so no elimination would have majority. If just you and mastina voted Taly, there would be a majority of teams voting mastina's team and they would be eliminated.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

that doesn't sound super intuitive

but just what you're telling me here is indicating to me that voting out entire groups is probably a terrible idea in a lot of cases, it sounds a lot more useful to just force specific players to leave

[Jingle]

Except that a multiscum group never has an incentive to leave, so you'd have to vote out their groups.

There's also utility to being in larger groups in that a subset of the group can confirm their contribution to have come from town without killing their partners and a disincentive in that the larger the groups are the more townies you have to trade for a scum elimination.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

I mean town coming to a consensus that a specific player should leave, but regardless, thinking more about it I'm not even sure that there's any reason town should ever have groups of more than two people in the first place

If you just add another town player and each group makes only groups of three, scum would instantly win the game if every scum were in different groups (3 TvTvT groups, 4 TvTvS groups)