Mini 2251: Triplicate! GAME OVER!

[Amy Dunne]

Actually, the comparison to watcher is very apt.

Watcher generates guilties by town playing well and being recognized as town, and punishes scum for making what would otherwise be a good play (killing strong town voices). It is a ridiculously powerful role and should not be used in many instances. When it is used one should always be careful how it is used.

The wagon analysis role is both harder to manipulate to use well and potentially more dangerous to scum, which is why there was literally a third of the game devoted to mitigating its impact.

I don’t necessarily hate mechanically complex setups (in fact, I actually enjoy them as long as I have a clue what’s happening) but hard disagree because you actually have to br caught visiting the dead to get caught as watcher. Here, voting can get you mech guiltied, so not at all the same thing. Only thing is my reaction to the guilty may have been different since I wouldn’t have been so pissed that that. Being mech guiltied just for voting, is what I take strong exception too. Mastina actually being SK mitigates it some but I think it’s an extremely unfair role to have. It’s extremely discouraging to scum to feel that your dayplay is completely irrelevant. Fact, is I probably endgame here without WA because I had made none of the kills, so only AC could have caught me.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

I think you'd have to have next to no scum relative to town in order for that to function as intended, and even then if you have like 18v2, town can just make groups of 2 and they just need to correctly identify three TvT pairings out of eight in order for scum to have no ability to win the game

[Amy Dunne]

I almost didn’t add Ircher to the hood. I could have handled it differently but I just didn’t want to be a part of any hoods if I could help it, especially since it wasn’t necessary because both RCE and Dwlee had guaranteed access to it, even if I endgamed, so my being in it wasn’t necessary.

I think you used the neighborizer just fine, although I think it would definitely have been a mistake for RCE to claim neighborizor like you considered because then if you flipped he was sunk.

One of the things the role could have done would be to set up a false guilty in a pool by making an all town neighborhood, implying scum would be in it if/when you flipped. I also think it could have been a very strongly town AI claim if you'd played it slightly differently, but I don't think that's necessarily a better use of the role, just a different one. I liked it as a scum role because there were a bunch of different options as to how one could use it best and I don't think any of them were a "correct" option.

I love hoods as town, as scum it’s just another way to get caught.

[Radical Rat]

I had a great time with this game, until my elimination which I feel was kind of bullshit, but well, that's how it always feels getting eliminated as Town

[Alyssa The Lamb]

you had virtually no chance at that point

[Titus]

So, we autowin regardless of whether Alyssa votes out Titus or Mastina? But if both Mastina and Titus vote Alyssa, wouldn’t we have lost?

Yes.

Technically, either mastina or alyssa could have refused the joint win and tried to win solo, in which case Titus was Kingmaker. Town could not have won the 1v1v1.

What would have happened if I no voted?

[Titus]

you had virtually no chance at that point

House being wrong on me and refusing to reconsider wrecked us anyway.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

that's the same as choosing mastina to win over me

[Radical Rat]

Oh, if people could weigh in on the experimental mechanics I'd appreciate it:

Persistent scumchat (dead scum can still post in their factional PT) is a low utility but +fun mechanic imo and I don't think it would necessarily be a bad site meta shift. It's also not a major departure from expected mechanics.

Triplicate seems popular, but also seems like it might exacerbate gamestates with thread lag.

Open threads at night seem pretty meh, tbh. I don't know that they're bad, but it definitely didn't see a lot of use in this case.

Persistent scumchat is a definite yes from me. I already think scum is more fun, so the retention worries don't apply to me, but I just think it's better.

Triplicate very good, but y'know. Not really sustainable for every game. I liked having the more varied setups interacting though, and the scumthreads working as neighborhoods is a fun emergent mechanic.

Open threads at night, ehhh, not much of a point imo. I mean, it's a necessary consequence of the Triplicate setup, but it's also not terribly useful since any substantial discussion leads to scum making better decisions on kills/actions. Maybe in a role madness setup it'd see more use?

[Radical Rat]

I will say, the game was made notably worse by mastina misinterpreting her role and not being corrected.

I would have been MUCH less chill about the BP Survivor claim if there'd been two kills going around every night, plus mastina would have probably played differently

[Radical Rat]

Balance wise, I am by no means an expert, so grain of salt and all that, but I feel like my role's existence was a problem.

Because the Town PRs in play were significantly more useful than the scum roles (except possibly mastina), it kinda rewards Town for playing poorly, such as, say..... Accidentally allowing Ircher to get quickhammered, and as a direct result getting to be wagon analyzer.

Not that it actually helped in this case, but even so, feels kinda weird to me

[Jingle]

that's the same as choosing mastina to win over me

Not necessarily. Titus forcing a no lim could’ve let mastina force you to share the win if you were the only one resisting the joint win. Which, frankly would be hilarious.

[Jingle]

it kinda rewards Town for playing poorly

In this specific instance it did, but more generally the UB is an anti snowball role. It softens the blow of losing a town piece early while not doing as much if scum has already lost members.

It’s never worth it to eliminate town or to avoid killing PRs to avoid triggering it, but it does mean the game isn’t as unwinnable if one faction has a bad start.

[Jingle]

I mean town coming to a consensus that a specific player should leave, but regardless, thinking more about it I'm not even sure that there's any reason town should ever have groups of more than two people in the first place

If you just add another town player and each group makes only groups of three, scum would instantly win the game if every scum were in different groups (3 TvTvT groups, 4 TvTvS groups)

Hmmm. I hadn’t really looked at the numbers yet, but that is problematic. I’ll probably have to switch to normal voting and look at a different method of preventing a massive group with all of the question marks.

[Jingle]

I would have been MUCH less chill about the BP Survivor claim if there'd been two kills going around every night, plus mastina would have probably played differently

FWIW I’m not sure there would have been 2 KPN had mastina understood her role. There is a reason I didn’t bat an eye when she didn’t submit kills, after all.

I agree that the error was a substantial one, though, and no doubt had a significant impact on the game, if only because mastina’s scum hunting was colored by her perception of the game balance.

[Amy Dunne]

Yeah, I tyink not being able to make votes game specific probably hurt town the lost in all games. I would much prefer if you could actually vote who you wanted in each game.

VOTE: player X in game _

for example would have been a lot better.

[MegAzumarill]

Yeah, I tyink not being able to make votes game specific probably hurt town the lost in all games. I would much prefer if you could actually vote who you wanted in each game.

VOTE: player X in game _

for example would have been a lot better.

The entwining votes is kind of the whole point :/

[Radical Rat]

If the votes are separate like that, you're JUST playing three games in one thread.

I would actually be interested in MORE opportunities for the games to fuck with each other, like perhaps cross-game PRs (specific ones, not EVERY role). Say, a Cop that reveals how many games a slot is scum in, but not WHICH games.

Balance would be even more nightmarish though

[Jingle]

I think I’d be more willing to experiment with mutations over cross game pr usage. Cross game pr usage is where doubles mafia fell apart, after all.

[Jingle]

I don’t necessarily hate mechanically complex setups

The wagon role is exactly what I mean by mechanically complex. Things like bus drivers, extra communications, my conspiracies game with an SK/maf godfather traitor combo, games with thieves… basically the games that require a lot of legwork to understand or are virtually impossible to understand prior to endgame.

Comparatively, you enjoy my mutation setups which are fairly straightforward but twisting, like vengeful ghosts with a dead thread that could vig shoot or the game where the scum wincon was that their night kill was actually an escape from danger.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

Vengeful ghosts was painful

[CheekyTeeky]

I think I’d be more willing to experiment with mutations over cross game pr usage. Cross game pr usage is where doubles mafia fell apart, after all.

/pre-in

[Jingle]

Vengeful ghosts was painful

I’d blame that more on the rand than the game, but ducky salvaged it pretty well imo

[Amy Dunne]

If the votes are separate like that, you're JUST playing three games in one thread.

I would actually be interested in MORE opportunities for the games to fuck with each other, like perhaps cross-game PRs (specific ones, not EVERY role). Say, a Cop that reveals how many games a slot is scum in, but not WHICH games.

Balance would be even more nightmarish though

Not which? With only three games, how hard would that be? lol

[Amy Dunne]

I don’t necessarily hate mechanically complex setups

The wagon role is exactly what I mean by mechanically complex. Things like bus drivers, extra communications, my conspiracies game with an SK/maf godfather traitor combo, games with thieves… basically the games that require a lot of legwork to understand or are virtually impossible to understand prior to endgame.

Comparatively, you enjoy my mutation setups which are fairly straightforward but twisting, like vengeful ghosts with a dead thread that could vig shoot or the game where the scum wincon was that their night kill was actually an escape from danger.

I hope you do that nightmare game again, that one seemed really fun. I don’t mind mech complex setups, I just hate roles that that can guilty/inno a player merely for voting. I feel WA undermines play as an important factor.