Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Fey]

Cool. So now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad, let's focus on the current game.

LOL

dying

my first reaction to this post was "well, dunn is town" but tbh showing up only after people start pushing on him means i proooobably shouldn't let him off that easy, even though i want to. idk

Also while reading, small post I noticed was that this is the sort of post that feels self-consciously made about a partner. "I can't just outright say that they're town because they're not and if they flip, oh no, so let me hedge even on this small joke post."

[Fey]

she basically doesn't even acknowledge the dunn wagon on d2

No, I didn't. Because I wanted to kill Dwlee and I made that clear -- why should I acknowledge a wagon I didn't want?

You're trying to gotcha me now but if you read back what I was doing on day one/two with my votes is the clearest it gets for me.

Day one: vote literally anyone who wasn't Lavar.

Day two: kill Dwlee.

[Fey]

It was /wrong/, yeah, but saying something out of context like that doesn't really serve a purpose. You're reaching for the lowest hanging fruit.

[Kovu]

I am too conflicted and the longer this goes on, the worse I'll feel if wrong. I *REALLY* don't think I should decide tonight, so I'm not. I promise I will/am reading every single word yall say here, and actually thinking about what you're saying.

Just so you're kinda in the loop Fey, I have been asking Fire some questions from our hood PT in there, but have quickly realized I will never reach the fire!maf conclusion from that.

fire, can you link me a scum game of yours? I would love to see what that looks like

but I'm going to bed, I'm exhausted. at the end of the day, I want to make the right choice. If it was easy I'd have voted by now I'll be around in about 12 hours from now... maybe. but I need to sit down, look at all my facts. figure out what I want to do. and weigh out every single option. if I had to pick one of yall RIGHT NOW... I'm honestly not even sure who I'd go with


feel free to build good town cases or scum cases on each other, anything said on D6 can only help you!

[Fey]

I'd encourage you to not post in the PT anymore. It's functionally the same thing as HDP. You're the IC and you're (FMPOV) now with mafia who can whisper in your ear. If there's something you don't want me to respond to, you can just ask or what have you.

[fireisredsir]

ok so i think i can see now what the scumteam's plan for this game was

marci was the goon who is fine dying early

fey was the openwolf who would just push town wagons, make a fakeclaim to put suspicion on the other PRs, and then get bussed eventually

dunn was just being background character dunn and idk they probably figured he would get shot eventually but wanted him to live long enough to use his role

gamma was supposed to be the deepwolf. he bussed literally his whole team just for the hope that he could survive elo

fey's actions fit this. when marci was under threat early, she townread her in 108 and defended her in 111 and 113. there was a bit of an early wagon there and she pushed the next most viable one, bell, in 279. reading between the lines of this post, actually, she probably had guessed that he was a PR and was trying to wagon to force out a claim. she also white knights lavar and votes marci only when it isn't really viable anymore in 971. she then immediately leaves for dwlee to sheep kovu in 1011. this kind of hopping on only to hop back off is super performative.

d2, meuh calls out (correctly) that there's scum on the dwlee wagon (gamma and fey), and she votes fey. fey's reaction is the most engaged she's felt in the game thus far, immediately jumping in meuh in 1168 and shutting her reasoning down. (also note how she has all 3 flipped scum in the blue/yellow of her reads 1178). 1327 trying to shut down the clears people are handing out for the LLD kill is also super scum-motivated.

she votes dwlee, and their main read after returning to the thread is to scumread Dunn (1644), and she continues push them and campaign for more votes on them while never actually engaging with their scumread on a partner. this is v telling of a classic chainsaw. town would care to engage with the person their scumreading's suspicions, examine them, see if they're valid. it turned out that dwlee's reasoning on Dunn was later pointed out by someone else as invalid, but fey would as scum assume that they were correctly onto something. the only point she does is 1745. her primary focus is on discrediting dwlee for attacking her partner. at end of day she gives the most obligatory of mentions towards Dunn with 2074 without actually saying anything useful. there's no reason for town to say that there, but as scum she feels a need to. she then disappeared for the rest of the day and didn't post while the marci wagon was happening

d3 is where things get interesting. one scum has flipped. meuh has correctly called out Dunn and fey as being the most likely partnered with marci (also, kovu, we came to that same conclusion on the hood overnight. I wasn't wrong on everything this game!). so they need something to disrupt that. fey claims detective with useless results in 2244. the goal of this is only to buy time and draw out more claims, just like marci did. it works, and gets a val claim. there's a very cute theatre interaction with dunn after the claim, setting up the bus on her, but both of them go on cakez instead to try to push that through first. she's begging people to lim or shoot cakez here but doesn't actually do much work to push him as an elim as the day gets later. instead she just pushes for enchant (and does get her goal of val shooting cakez).

also, earlier, after she makes the claim and now is planning to go down next, she starts distancing with gamma. 2309 makes no sense coming from someone who previously had barely even touched gamma. she's pairing him with marci, giving zero reasoning (he doesn't even look that paired objectively since he pushed her lost of the game), and not actually directly pushing him just setting up the distance for later. 2587 continues this, basically treating him as confscum to the point of preflipping him in order to push his "partners" of cakez and enchant.

this is prob the scummiest thing in here to me

. she's not actively pushing gamma at all, there's zero town thought process or progression or attempt to convince anyone else that he's scum, and yet she's treating him as scum to the point where she is pushing cakez and enchant and treating them as his partners. she's expecting her and Dunn to die first here, so she's okay with tying herself to Dunn and hard defending him as long as those two are set up as opposing gamma

d4 starts and off the bat i say that i think her and gamma are partners in 2895. she responds really weirdly in 2898, and i think she was frustrated that her work she put in to attempt to untie herself from gamma wasn't successful. it's actually nuts how much she preflips gamma through this whole time and seems to have him as her most confident scumread while never actually making any attempt to case or push him. she spends p much all of d4 just being floaty, never really pushing anyone. gamma is still pushing dunn/fey as a pairing and absolutely begging people to just lim them. fey is even almost begging to get limmed with posts like 3183, where she wonders why nobody is pushing dunn and then votes meuh.

d5 she barely even posts but notice how hard gamma argues for fey over meuh. if both of those are town there's no reason for him to care that much. i had it backwards and thought it was bc meuh was town and fey was scum, but gamma was thinking one step ahead. he wanted fey dead by lim because after that flip he is confirmed to have pushed 3 scum and is never getting invictus shot, which is the only real threat to him. it's all just setting up for endgame. and yet somehow, town lands on another town, leaving him shot. it's actually p funny looking at the big picture now, seeing how gamma has planned out this whole game just hard bussing his whole team, and town just refuses to follow him onto fey and give him the cred that probably would have won him the game. not letting him bus fey actually ended up giving us a chance to win this here

summary:

1) day 1 and day 2, just defend scum, push town, chainsaw occasionally. openwolf, awoooo

2) day 3, realizes that things look bad for her and dunn, claim to draw out other claims, and set things up to let herself be bussed by dunn and gamma. continue defending dunn and pushing town hard, but begin to have an inexplicable scumread on gamma that's never really explained. never push him or case him, but preflip him anyway and vote who she thinks are his partners

3) day 4. plan to get bussed by gamma. float around. town decides to kill gorilla instead, surprise! day 5, continue the same path. gamma really really wants fey dead, because it wins him elo. town decides to kill meuh instead, surprise! gamma gets shot, oops, fey is suddenly in 3p elo after expecting to die on like d3 or d4 and has to suddenly turn it on and start playing the game

[fireisredsir]

also i never kill bell before RR here if im scum. RR has been questioning the townreads on me all game and bell has been townreading me all game. fey has incentive to kill bell tho bc RR is the one who said to sheep gorilla, and gorilla's plan would have won scum the game (lim fey/meuh, shoot the other one, then lim me). gorilla even said that gamma is never partners with fey/Dunn which is probably why gamma wanted to be sure fey went down earlier, to try to clear himself

[fireisredsir]

Like why are ya'll ignoring EVERYTHING that I've been saying about Fey for days now about her marci & Dunn interactions where she defends marci and completely ignores Dunn and the cases on him, pushes either entirely or almost entirely town for the entire damn game, and then posts shit like this that's saying "well I think they're scum but I probably still have to deal with fire tomorrow won't that be shitty >_>", like ACTUALLY WHY? It makes no damn sense for that to be coming from town, she's completely ignored everything I've said about marci & dunn both when I said it and how likely town I am because of their interactions with me now that they've flipped, and she's done nothing town for DAYS now and is probably wondering how the fuck you all are just letting her coast and get away with it, it's fucking absurd

this is scum who is legitimately annoyed that town won't let him bus

there's no reason for him to have this emotion here if the alternative is limming town meuh

[Kovu]

So, I pulled up the Dunn/marci/gamma ISO, and control F'd Fey and fire. And my takeaway is, I think scum was planning on Gamma endgaming, thus all of gamma's "Dunn and fey" lines, I'm pretty sure, I want to vote Fey right now. However, I'm going to step away, get some fresh air, then return to this and look at a different angle and see if I feel the same way,

Like, I compared fire's posts here to fire!town/scum games and like, this seems to match up well with town!fire, and the way maf interacted with fire, was just so different from how they interacted with each other, I'm confused on what the maf plan even was... just bus each other till the end? but yeah, in that iso, it definitely looks like Gamma was positioning himself to be the scum that endgamed? idk, looking at the dunn/marci/gamma ISO it's just like, those 3... I really think it's fey. I'll probably be back in around 3 hours, but yeah. Last night I was deadset on it being fire, told myself to wait, see if I felt the same way. and now, I'm pretty certain it's fey. So gonna give it some time, then return to this.

@Fey, I have 1 question for you, what caused you to vote fire so fast here? Cause in my mind, if you're maf planning on just doing that, you'd just kill me and leave RR alive, but I SR you, so that clearly wasn't the plan? So just, without a doubt, you TRed me? I'm just trying to figure this out. and I want yall to have equal chance to defend yourselves so I can make the right decision here

Spoiler: Posts from the 3maf ISO for Fey being maf

I want to say this is Marci's towngame off the top of my head. Not freezing up, replying/responding to a few different things. Seems out of the scope for her from what I recall.

VOTE: Bell

Skimmed Lavar and Bell, Lavar feels... in his own little world sort of deal. Like the read on Dunnstral of all people as potentially shady feels out there in a world where scum!Lavar probably doesn't need to be right now. Is a weird place to fixate. Just seems like he's doing his own thing.

Bell feels on the fringes and like. I dunno. I have an expectation of something "more" as vague as it is, but he feels very shady with the things he's posting and also just like "eh, whatever" to questions, all that. A presence that doesn't really want to be around at all but knows he has to be, and like... throwing out whatever thoughts because he has to, given prior games where he spews out his thoughts and boom everyone reads him right.

@Someone, I think VP asked me about Marci and what she could/couldn't post, compare 213 to like, Holiday Dance Party, where she was a lot more sheepish I feel. Here she's all attitude and bite and I feel that's more of a hallmark of her as town.

I’ve jumped around in vote a few times. I’ve given some takes that I think should be more memorable (Lavar town, Marci town). Not a lot but I’m not going to force myself to give a lot.

Just because you don’t remember it doesn’t mean it’s not there though. Shrug.

Obligatory I still think Lavar is town.

I don’t particularly like the alternative of Marci but I don’t have a great grasp of what else I would do wagonwise. Probably not Luke/Kovu/fire/gorilla and shrug at the rest. My reasons for those names is just memory of goodvibes when I was reading closer than I am now.

VOTE: Marcistar

VOTE: Dwlee

Choo choo.

Fey talks Marci up as town due to meta early on, and brings it back in 735. Then they vote for Marci for seemingly no reason. The top 2 wagons are Lavar and Dwlee at this point, Marci isn't in contention. And then they quickly switch to Dwlee after with no reasoning.

I like fey as well, she keeps asking questions and it seems like those questions are her trying to push the game forward so i think shes towny

i dont think fey seemed scummy, i like what she posted so far she looks like shes trying to solve

i dont have alot of time to like type up thoughts since im at work for like another 4 hrs, and then ill be sleeping but if u have anything ur curious abt u can juat ask (:
i think gammagooey has a couple of agreeable takes but they piss me off so dont tell them i said that im not sure what i think of them tho aince the agreeable takes are v basic takes
i think kouvs town but i wouldnt trust them leading anything because theyre too emotional about things and too reactivey
balters i would say how self centered he is, i dont like that, so he scummy
fey towny
sircakez scummy, the bandwagoning is not good vibes at all
i dont like vals view of the invixtus mechanic because it reminds me of a diff game i played w him, but otherwise hes mid, he has some good thoughts

idk who else exists

Anyways,

Still voting Dwlee, if that wagon's not a thing then RIP. I don't actually know how to read Dunn.

If Meuh flares up I'll go there. Sure. Why not.

also yeah this feels weird idk y tho

fey, because earlier when i was looking at the votes on dwlees wagon her vote stuck out the most to me. it seemed pretty scummy and her other posts regarding dwlee do as well tbhs

On Marci's side, she barely talks abotu fey. Starting with a townread that is not well explained, a long period of silence, and then switching to a scumread which I think is weird because I'm not sure what motivation Marci has to switch reads here when they are gaining pressure unless it's to distance. I don't think Fey was a likely elimination, and in fact Dwlee flipped town and was almost eliminated but Marci didn't vote there.

The interactions between the two feel partnered to me.

VOTE: Fey

VOTE: Fey
It looks like Dunn and Meuh already went into this a bit but Fey definitely looks the worst from D1 play at a glance - was one of the people suggesting marci-town for meta, votes were Datisi->Bell->VPB->marci with a caveat that she doesn't even like the wagon->Dwlee

Dwlee investigate is understandable but Datisi investigate doesn't make sense to me personally - if you're gonna use a 2-shot detective role n1 and basically make it variant tracker, is theoretical Datisi-scum really going to make the kill when he's been tunnelled by marci all day? And remember this is from Fey's perspective so with a marci town-read she presumably wouldn't have "Marci+Datisi scumbuddies" as anywhere near a likely possibility given her d1 read on marci

I don't think it has more than a tiny chance of happening but no quick elims til after I can go over more stuff plz

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This is somewhat obvious but prob needs to be said for whoever suggested Cakez dead just to stop neighborizing from happening given Val's claim - Cakez can presumably just stop using his neighborize ability at this point

Haven't done much re-reading aside from a skim of marci's iso and going over Fey a bit yet - I get why people are saying Cakez was overconfident on marci but I'm still leaning him-town. Meuh I'll probably go over more tonight, her gorilla & marci thoughts in particular were ???? but man does that feel borderline suicidal to do with marci as a scumpartner

Also I got a fruit and a T-shirt last night which probably came from VPB given his flip?

Yeah looking at EOD when Marci was giving her suspicions she had me/gorilla/Cakez. Just gonna rule of three this and move on assuming Cakez is a hit.

Didn't I just go on a rant about how "rule of 3" is dumb lazy garbo in Slaughter Hour? it's fine to use with other info but using on its own is terrible

Gamma, do you think that Marci gave three reads in a place of pressure that did not include her partner?

Wouldn't be that surprised, but also think you're the one person in there most likely to flip scum

It also wasn't her "these are my 3 strongest scum reads" because if so then she'd probably feel forced to include me on it b/c she tunneled on me instead of trying to play the game all of day 2 until some actual pressure finally got put on her, if I remember right it was "these are 3 people who can possibly be elim'd instead of me", which is gonna be more reflective of other people's reads and wagons at the time and who CAN die, not just "oh let me throw out 3 reads and put a scum on them for distancing"

Gamma, do you think that Marci gave three reads in a place of pressure that did not include her partner?

Wouldn't be that surprised, but also think you're the one person in there most likely to flip scum

It also wasn't her "these are my 3 strongest scum reads" because if so then she'd probably feel forced to include me on it b/c she tunneled on me instead of trying to play the game all of day 2 until some actual pressure finally got put on her, if I remember right it was "these are 3 people who can possibly be elim'd instead of me", which is gonna be more reflective of other people's reads and wagons at the time and who CAN die, not just "oh let me throw out 3 reads and put a scum on them for distancing"

I don't like the votes on Fey right now. Who are your other scum reads?

The 3 people that stuck out most to me when I went over marci's iso a bit overnight were Fey, Lukewarm (rip), & Kovu

Kovu's crossvote and push on marci felt like it came out of nowhere and seemed pretty plausible as a end of day distance/bus that went wrong and got attention when scum-marci didn't expect it to. Kovu's actual votes have been pretty mediocre aside from the one on marci imo, they're putting a ton of effort into the game but they're my personal pick for a potential deepwolf
Dunn & Meuh are leftover scumreads from yesterday - Dunn is still a fine vote even though I think marci would prob have refused to vote with me on Dunn yesterday regardless of Dunn's alignment, Meuh miiight still be too but I need to reread a fair bit and see how much that actually makes sense

p-edit: What makes you think Kovu is v. likely town aside from *effort* gorilla? Also when you're done reading up lmk who you're most confident on being scum atm

I'm leaning pretty hard towards a scumteam of Fey+Dunn+a mystery 4th atm. (I don't think 5 scum is likely and even if that's the case I don't think it really changes anything I'm about to go over).
For Fey, first I wanna say that I think that them getting emotional today could come from either alignment and that regardless of their alignment the position they're in this game is stressful. I don't think Detective fits nearly as well as Val's Traffic Analyst claim does given Bell's Friendly Neighbor+other Neighbors/izer that have been claimed and I don't get why she'd investigate Datisi in particular over other players when marci & VPB specifically were scumreading/commenting on Dats by the end of day 1 and she'd need to target specifically the scum player making the kill. She pushed marci-town early and then mostly dropped out of the game aside from pushing Dwlee day 2. The lack of activity is actually pretty null imo, but I brought up that day that I agreed with her point that relying on LLD's reads to semi-clear people was a bad idea for marci particularly when she was pushing for Dwlee scum, and that never got acknowledged by her even as marci continued doing basically nothing, which should have fit her idea of marci freezing up. And there's the random marci reads on Fey that Meuh pointed out, town with no reasoning d1 and then swapping to scum for a "weird post" d2 2088 and explaining later that it's because of her vote on the Dwlee wagon 2216, which unless I'm missing something was only mentioned by marci here before that:

guys tbh just looking at dwlees iso in that game and remembering my memory of how he acts as town

i feel like he does more as scum than he has here

Like individually I think a few of those could come from Fey-town, but I don't think it all does together.

For Dunn, it mostly just comes down to me still hating his day 1 and early day 2 play. His question to Cakez just asking "what about me?" in response to Cakez saying she (marci) is not really scumhunting is bad, and yes I know Dunn will say that he wasn't voting anyone either, the point is that thinking marci wasn't scumhunting was perfectly reasonable and true and Dunn decided to pick at the fact that he wasn't voting either instead of addressing the actually valid part of Cakez's argument. He also talks to/about marci a bit & discusses her arguments for Datisi scum (you can look up these on Meuh's 2233 instead of me pulling up the same posts) but doesn't actually make a stand on her alignment until day 2 (w/ post 1234), before that it's just pokes and questions without an actual read on marci being shared, and later he goes back on it for Luke's reasons to townread marci instead of having any of his own. I still think a ton of his posts through the first two days feel more like nitpicks and arguments he's trying to win or look good in than actually get reads on understand the points of who he's talking to, and I think that type of behavior is much more likely to come from scum than town.

Meuh I've read over pretty much her whole iso now at this point and still feel conflicted. One thing I wanna bring up is that I think that Meuh & Dunn are pretty damn unlikely to be scum together. The gorilla pushes, and now the Fey push, and the way they behaved around marci is just too similar in a game where any scumbuddy could die at any time to Invictus and one person's read on you can end your life, and I think it makes a lot more sense that Meuh got blinded by her friend's play than Dunn. If I'm wrong about Dunn then I think she's at least a reasonable guess at scum, but also I think it's likely I was overly tunneled on her gorilla push - I still don't like it and it's probably going to be bouncing in the back of my brain every now and again until either she's deceased or the game's over, but if I put most of that aside, I do think her point about scum seeing the setup as more town-sided than it is and vice-versa was more likely to come from a town mindset than scum even if I don't agree with its conclusion of gorilla being scum, her marci questioning+mentions day 2 in particular were generally reasonable and definitely at least felt better than the random pointless pokes it felt like Dunn was giving to marci, and similar to her point on gorilla I like her post 1287 where she goes over what she thought was iffy about Cakez and reconsiders a bit that she may have disliked where Cakez's focus was but acknowledges that she's not sure how justified that was in retrospect.

Cakez I feel like I understand at least partly where the reads are coming from, in that Cakez has felt fairly lazy this game imo but has also been both aggressive towards particularly marci-scum but to a lesser degree other people who scumread him (gorilla, Lukewarm, & Val around #1306) and was correct on both of Lavar & marci, and I totally get that it feels weird for him to be all of lazy+aggressive+correct on both elims so far. He probably deserves some extra scrutiny for that, but I still don't think his pushes make him likely scum.
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It's like 2:40am so I'm stopping for the night here. I'll do my best to pick this back up tomorrow night, but I Would like other people's thoughts on the above if you have time and/or you've got a strong opinion on either of Fey/Dunn (doesn't have to be long but I'd very appreciate a couple sentences of "I agree/disagree/see where you're coming from but X/etc" )

@Kovu - I think gorilla had a point day 2 I think it was that a couple of Enchant posts (when Enchant talked about potentially allowing themselves to be vigged) were more likely to come from town.

now, am I willing to bet the game on that? absolutely not and I will be pretty surprised if they're not dead within the next 2 day/night cycles. I also have no comment on whether or not I personally will have my invictus on Enchant tonight.
Do I want to elim them over one of Fey/Dunn today though? Not really.

also I'm still not actually voting yet am I
VOTE: Dunn

@gorilla if you have some overall Cakez thoughts I'd like to hear them before the end of the day - I get the points regarding him + marci but I'd like to know what you think of his overall play/attitude so far this game particularly.

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn

Why?

also if you swap Fey and enchant we're at almost the same place

also I think Val was towny even before the claim, what're your issues there? I still think you can easily be scum btw but S_S thinks you're pretty hard town so I'm deferring to him

~Rhyme

Fey & Dunn have both been going after Cakez from Day 2 and have continued to go after him today, Cakez has been pushing Dunn pretty solidly and repeatedly pushed to kill marci - i guess it's technically possible that their solution to salvage the game is/was "turn it into a big bussing clusterfuck" but I feel like it's rarer for scumteams to actually go for that than maybe it should be?

Val I also had as a town-lean and I haven't done much rereading on, though I don't think from memory that there's a ton to go on in previous days, just a few comments to marci that I think were meh contrasted with his day 2 posts seeming town but not outstandingly so. Regardless I'm confident on my Fey+Dunn reads that at least one of them is scum there and I personally think likely both, whereas assuming that I'm right on both of them my 4th scum read is more guessing than anything I'm willing to stake on atm.

Dunn, you and Fey's posts Day 1 and Day 2 look to me like they could easily share a goal of interacting with marci while not actually applying any pressure to her at all (which I've gone over in my last big reads post with you and Fey in 2441). The other major issue I have is that except for your interactions on page 3 of the game, it doesn't seem like either of you two give any attempt to try to read the other until you come out with a case on her at the start of Day 3. Granted, I don't think Fey was ever a significant wagon on days 1 or 2, but you were, and when you were Fey just continued pushing Dwlee, mentioned that Meuh was an option she'd consider too, and once your wagon had passed you just both mention that you have the other as null.


I'm putting the interactions I found significant between you two below - If I missed any interactions before day 3 between you two that you think are significant, pull 'em up or give a post # and let me know
-You two had a little back and forth discussion on page 3 where you both townread each other
-There's a bit from you about Kovu/Fey being on alts in a different game
-You ask marci some questions that maybe could theoretically in the future lead to a scum read on marci but don't and Fey actively says that marci is town for not freezing up/meta/etc
-Fey puts you as flat null in her votecount analysis of the Day 1 Lavar/Dwlee wagons and doesn't mention you at all
-Dunn wagon starts with more people than gorilla+me around page 66, Fey had voted Dwlee earlier and continues pushing on him here

I was Dwlee’s partner in Geriatric, lmao.

Anyways.

Don’t be feely vote for Dwlee.

-You also don't mention Fey at all in your readslist when I finally drag it out of you day 2 in 1723
-Fey says to Dwlee she's pretty tunneled on them dying and that she'll entertain a Meuh wagon if people want to kill her, asks Dwlee what about the posts he quoted from Dunn are appeasing

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

What part of these are appeasing...?

-You mention Fey again here

Fey, Enchant are null and I don't have a good grasp on them. Fey stands out as not usually being this reserved, I think.

-Fey mentions you here

Anyways,

Still voting Dwlee, if that wagon's not a thing then RIP. I don't actually know how to read Dunn.

If Meuh flares up I'll go there. Sure. Why not.

And I think that's it until Day 3 starts and you start with a case and a vote on her.

[Fey]

I was going to vote fire regardless in like, 99/100 worlds. I'd humor anything they had to say wrt you being mafia but my mind wasn't there and I think that my posts previously reflect that I didn't suspect you. It just... didn't make sense to me, looking back at stuff like votes. But then fire made a wack set of posts that pushed me out of "do your due diligence" and into "screw it" mode.

[Kovu]

mmk yeah, like, your read on me isn't the dealbreaker just cause yeah, I seriously need your help seeing Fire!maf I almost just can't see it right now

[Fey]

Also, uh. If the team is me/Gamma we have literally zero incentive to kill R+R and I think for all that fire manages to build a narrative (which, tangentially, I think should be worrisome because fire was like, less than a day ago floating around you being scum. They have the "answer" now, because of my vote, but suddenly being able to put together

like every single scum action in the game into a master web

when there was a minimal amount of that foresight before is kind of wack) it ignores the point that like.

If it's me/Gamma:

Killing R+R, shoots Gamma: I am here, left alone and stranded fighting against fire and Kovu. My body of work looks bad. This is the expected Invictus for a R+R kill. The argument is... wifom? Hope to randomly push Kovu since she's not technically clear?
Killing R+R, shoots Fey: The less likely choice, imo, by a mile. Gamma can say that R+R was pocketed I guess, has a better chance to win.

Killing Kovu, shoots Gamma: I am left alive with the person who has kept me alive the entire game. The argument can be made that R+R is pocketed, but it vindicates R+R's suspicion of Gamma and thus... waters down the idea that I am mafia, too? I get to play an endgame with someone in my field, and someone who I have been able to manipulate the entire game.
Killing Kovu, shoots Fey: Gamma gets to argue that R+R was pocketed, play out the endgame.

Like to me it's Very Goofy to think that a team I'm on throws away the entire idea that Gamma is the deepwolf we've been propping up on a night kill like that, knowing what the most likely outcome was. It screws me over and removes like, most factors that were keeping me alive this entire time.

[Fey]

Like why are ya'll ignoring EVERYTHING that I've been saying about Fey for days now about her marci & Dunn interactions where she defends marci and completely ignores Dunn and the cases on him, pushes either entirely or almost entirely town for the entire damn game, and then posts shit like this that's saying "well I think they're scum but I probably still have to deal with fire tomorrow won't that be shitty >_>", like ACTUALLY WHY? It makes no damn sense for that to be coming from town, she's completely ignored everything I've said about marci & dunn both when I said it and how likely town I am because of their interactions with me now that they've flipped, and she's done nothing town for DAYS now and is probably wondering how the fuck you all are just letting her coast and get away with it, it's fucking absurd

this is scum who is legitimately annoyed that town won't let him bus

there's no reason for him to have this emotion here if the alternative is limming town meuh

(Breaking down that entire narrative by fire is... a beast, so if you want specific things responded to let me know.)

I think that framing stuff like this as only ever coming from scum is wack too. Like... everyone in the game wanted me dead. Except the one person whose voice was the one that ""Mattered"". Why wouldn't that be frustrating to scum, even if there are alternatives? The game is infinitely harder if you can't get the easy ones.

Also I think this would be a weird post to make if we were teamed, but that's more my perspective of "I flip and now there are the theatrics of Gamma so valiantly trying to kill me and oh, the town won't listen" lmao.

[Kovu]

hmm I'll read some posts like "ehhh could be from either alignment" but then I read this and I'm like, I don't think fire could be partnered with gamma

Like the only reason I could get for people voting him is that his posting is a little stilted and that his self-admitted tinfoil of Datisi & Marci being scum together is bad. Like he knows nobody's going to agree with it, that's why he said it's tinfoil, and I still think his early posts were good with him flatly saying what he thinks but being open to looking at other things/potentially being wrong about early reads.

Exactly
There's not really anything I can point to for Lavar scum but many things I can for other people scum

a relevant example from this game is right here

when gamma made the quoted post, i thought it was kinda scummy at first bc i felt like he was minimizing and dismissing the case on lavar, as if he had already come to a conclusion on it and wasn't looking at the evidence presented. so i talked to gamma about it, and he was willing to listen, read the case i had, disagreed with parts of it and agreed with parts of it, and it looked at least like he had at least some progression in his read over the course of the conversation

cakez, in contrast, comes in and quotes the original post and says exactly. it's still not true, but hey, maybe he'll read the conversation i had with gamma and that will have some impact on his read. since if he's in the same place that gamma was at the time of that quote, i would expect him to also have some sort of development when he realizes that the original statement of there being no reasons for the lavar wagon was untrue

but he didn't, at all. he just kept moving forward with the townread that he had already decided on and only commented on new information that would support that read, ignoring information that wouldn't

[Fey]

Why can't that be partnered, exactly?

"I thought my partner was scummy, but we spoke a bit, and now I don't think it's scummy anymore. Gamma is the good one who listened."

"Cakez is the one who isn't like Gamma and because he didn't do what Gamma did, I think this is Bad."

It's literally just townreading their partner because Gamma "dialogued" with them. Which like, is pretty easy to do when you're doing it with one of the few people you can count on to react a certain way.

[fireisredsir]

They have the "answer" now, because of my vote, but suddenly being able to put together like every single scum action in the game into a master web when there was a minimal amount of that foresight before is kind of wack)

ive been thinking about this game a ton?? like me and kovu talked a bunch in the hood on d4 I think about what the gameplan would have been for a gamma+fey team so that's been on my mind a lot already. it's just that i ended up thinking you were paired with meuh, and then the dunn flip threw me bc i had a hard time seeing you two paired with him. but even last night i was rereading and thinking about what the scum plan would have been if it was kovu or if it was you+gamma (cause those were the two options), so again i already had it on my mind. and once you voted and became confscum i went back and looked over things again and everything just kinda clicked into place finally and i understood

acting like i wouldn't be able to comprehend what your plan was is just... i don't think that's based in reality at all. the point makes no sense

[Kovu]

I have never been more unsure in my entire freaking life.. why do I even play mafia... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
cause yes. the second meuh flipped town it was like "hmm kovu maf?" like, what? I thought it was just a simple gamma/fey? now we're questioning me? but like, I would think fire!maf would bus... someone... like, he didn't bus anyone, and honestly encouraged me to push marci there day 2 when I was unsure, I was like maybe.... and he was like "I could see it" or something and I thought that was good... I'm actually so torn now. I don't want to drag this game on, but I'm literally changing my mind every 2 seconds

[Kovu]

Also like, the Val kill makes 0 sense from fire. We were discussing how we thought Val was maf, and his reaction to that town flip was just like mine.. aghhhh

[Fey]

ok kovu has assuaged my concerns

VOTE: Dunn

people have posted a lot while i was writing but this was vaguely in response to 2611.

i think there's like a classic mental mistake people make where they group people in the game, sort them into bins, and think there must be, like, one scum in each group

like one lurker/coaster, one deepwolf, one powerwolf, or whatever

it sounds nice but its usually not how it works

i think its actually a town mistake more often than not, just bc scum aren't really thinking about the game in that level of sorting. they're picking either who they think are scummy or who advances scum wincon for them to push. but town trying to hero solve is thinking of what makes sense for a scum team playing optimally and positioning beautifully and all that, when scum teams often are just kinda blundering their way along. i think town tend to overestimate the level of planning and coordination that scum teams have. and tbh based on who is left in the poe i don't really feel like the scum team is likely to be super coordinated anyway

thats to say that i think gamma is wrong about kovu but i think its kinda towny that he thinks that. i also think that for similar reasons, he's wrong that meuh and dunn can't be scum together as he said in 2441. he used similar logic of how they were too closely aligned in their position throughout the game and... sometimes that just happens. i don't think thats a valid way of ruling out scum pairings. people don't look at someone after they flip and go, "hey, this other slot followed almost their exact same trajectory and position in the game, they must have been scum partners!" that just doesn't really happen. so im not even sure what the argument is for why two similarly positioned people can't be paired

ok uh

i kinda actually like dunn's latest posts

i think the point about fey's progression on cakez is good actually, the way she went from not really interacting that strongly to what felt like her saying "if you lim me without killing cakez next its a gamethrow" (ik she didn't literally say that but those were the vibes i got) is... not really supported.

i think the point about gamma feeling like he just kind of... decided that two certain people can't be scum together (in this case fey and cakez) without really doing the work to see if that holds up rings true for me. especially bc i had brought up how i felt a similar way about gamma saying that meuh+Dunn couldn't be paired, in 2623, which he didn't respond to btw. I kinda feel like gamma's effort is being spent where it is needed in order to convince, rather than in order to solve. which in turn kind of makes me hesitate and question if i should have been convinced so easily by his case on dunn. im not really sure that it makes gamma scum. but it does make me a little less enthused to follow him onto dunn

so yea, idk, after taking a step back a bit (and reflecting, haha) i kinda am less excited about a dunn lim

and while sheeping conftown onto cakez honestly just sounds lovely, and im feeling the last day of school, ready to relax for the summer, don't do work just float along kinda vibes... im not really sold on cakez either and wouldn't really be able to forgive myself if i compromised on cakez and he flipped town and i didn't fight for a lim on someone that i do actually scumread

someone that ive been rereading a lot of, debating about with kovu in the hood, etc, which is meuh

this post got way longer than i planned bc as i looked further into the things i found to be scummy, i kept finding more, so ima split it into two

so meuh.

sometimes her posts feel genuine and i want to townread her, but i think there's just a few things that i really have trouble getting over and i keep coming back to them. these are the biggest things for me:

1) the start of d2 push on gorilla. its already been pointed out how strange it was, saying that gorilla looks paired with marci and then voting gorilla. but with marci flipping scum i think it might just straight up be tmi. newer scum have that issue a lot i think, where they look for fake associatives with their scum partners in order to tie them together but do it before the partner even flips. the reasoning in 1365 for why she's going after gorilla instead of marci is p weak and her whole response to the pushback on it kind of feels like she realizes she messed up and is going into damage control mode.

2) her progression on marci. 162 and 207 feel blatantly partner-y to me. kind of awkwardly talking around a read, and saying "eh ill have a better read later". for people who to my understanding are friends and have played together a lot, it doesn't feel like a natural interaction at all. she starts off with more of a scumlean, but spends the whole day voting other wagons, quickly finds a weak reason to TR marci in 310, gradually townreads more and more, and then in 822 says the marci lim is bad and votes the counterwagon.

then early d2 she quickly shades baltar for questioning Marci in 1162, says marci is +town for LLD's death in 1176 and 1190, and then in her readlist in 1233 has a much more noncommittal, questioning read of marci. i think this has significant scum motivation bc if someone isn't looking closely, they'll think she just kinda nullreads Marci and is willing to consider her scum, but her action that she is taking in the thread is all counter to that. she is continually pointing out reasons Marci could be town, and not reasons why she could be scum, as if she is arguing against what she already knows to be true.

she then turns hard onto marci in posts like 1289. here she is acting like she is suddenly now convinced marci is scum and and is pulling out every reason she can find. but the thing that makes this feel like it's just planted for cred is that there's zero followup. she pivots this into the gorilla/marci s/s and stays on gorilla. then she hops around other wagons, never voting marci, until finally at the end when it's hard to avoid. the thing that makes this scum is that it isn't accurately recreating a town mindset. if she truly did suddenly find marci as scum and had all of these good reasons, to the point where she's preflipping her onto gorilla, why doesn't she ever contribute to the pressure there? why is she continually pushing other wagons? why does the read on marci seem to come and go in her mind based on whatever is convenient to push at the time? it's just not town

3) still think her play around lavar was just a straight up pocket attempt. i don't really see any way that interaction was pure. i don't think this will be very convincing to anyone else but it seriously stands out to me and it is something that i can't really get over personally

so uh yea i think i want to go back here

VOTE: Meuh

Like literally look at something like this. Fire isn't using anything meaningful to actually slot Gamma as town -- they're falling back on theory and saying "oh, Gamma is making a silly mistake and it's definitely like wrong but it's also town by the way soo it's all fine."

And then you have like a pithy vote on Dunn and then suddenly "oh I actually like Dunn... because Gamma said some good stuff about Dunn. But also I don't know if Gamma's really doing the towniest of things (AND THIS IS SAID RIGHT AFTER SAYING I THINK GAMMA HAS A TOWNY MINDSET FOR MISTAKE-MAKING BTW) so maybe I shouldn't follow but oh well let's just not vote Dunn anymore and look at Meuh, isn't she super scummy look at all these things, let's just move my vote onto Meuh instead."

[Fey]

people have posted a lot while i was writing but this was vaguely in response to 2611.

i think there's like a classic mental mistake people make where they group people in the game, sort them into bins, and think there must be, like, one scum in each group

like one lurker/coaster, one deepwolf, one powerwolf, or whatever

it sounds nice but its usually not how it works

i think its actually a town mistake more often than not, just bc scum aren't really thinking about the game in that level of sorting. they're picking either who they think are scummy or who advances scum wincon for them to push. but town trying to hero solve is thinking of what makes sense for a scum team playing optimally and positioning beautifully and all that, when scum teams often are just kinda blundering their way along. i think town tend to overestimate the level of planning and coordination that scum teams have. and tbh based on who is left in the poe i don't really feel like the scum team is likely to be super coordinated anyway

thats to say that i think gamma is wrong about kovu but i think its kinda towny that he thinks that. i also think that for similar reasons, he's wrong that meuh and dunn can't be scum together as he said in 2441. he used similar logic of how they were too closely aligned in their position throughout the game and... sometimes that just happens. i don't think thats a valid way of ruling out scum pairings. people don't look at someone after they flip and go, "hey, this other slot followed almost their exact same trajectory and position in the game, they must have been scum partners!" that just doesn't really happen. so im not even sure what the argument is for why two similarly positioned people can't be paired

ok uh

i kinda actually like dunn's latest posts

i think the point about fey's progression on cakez is good actually, the way she went from not really interacting that strongly to what felt like her saying "if you lim me without killing cakez next its a gamethrow" (ik she didn't literally say that but those were the vibes i got) is... not really supported.

i think the point about gamma feeling like he just kind of... decided that two certain people can't be scum together (in this case fey and cakez) without really doing the work to see if that holds up rings true for me. especially bc i had brought up how i felt a similar way about gamma saying that meuh+Dunn couldn't be paired, in 2623, which he didn't respond to btw.

I kinda feel like gamma's effort is being spent where it is needed in order to convince, rather than in order to solve. which in turn kind of makes me hesitate and question if i should have been convinced so easily by his case on dunn. im not really sure that it makes gamma scum. but it does make me a little less enthused to follow him onto dunn

so yea, idk, after taking a step back a bit (and reflecting, haha) i kinda am less excited about a dunn lim

and while sheeping conftown onto cakez honestly just sounds lovely, and im feeling the last day of school, ready to relax for the summer, don't do work just float along kinda vibes... im not really sold on cakez either and wouldn't really be able to forgive myself if i compromised on cakez and he flipped town and i didn't fight for a lim on someone that i do actually scumread

someone that ive been rereading a lot of, debating about with kovu in the hood, etc, which is meuh

this post got way longer than i planned bc as i looked further into the things i found to be scummy, i kept finding more, so ima split it into two

Like JESUS CHRIST this is blatant.

[Kovu]

Oh right, this was a thing too, like, scum had no need to campaign for an enchant lim? uhh I need to see the other wagons at the time

ok I just had a thought, maybe it's dumb but hear me out

am i 100% convinced enchant is maf? no, not at all

when i try to imagine what scum teams there could be, is enchant on the vast majority of them? yes

does enchant 100% need to be resolved before elo? yes

and the thing I realized is... even on the off chance that enchant is town here, im pretty sure scum would actually want them not to be limmed? like, think about it. if we flip someone else today, im guessing a lot of the town will be heading into the night with invictus on enchant. i know i probably will. people are tired of hero shots, and just want to narrow the poe. it makes sense. but thats actually shielding for scum. if they know that enchant is town, then they want everyone's invictus on them because invictus shots are much harder to predict compared to their ability to influence the lim during the day. limming enchant removes that shield and makes it harder for them to feel safe with their night kill

and the pretty likely alternative is that enchant is just scum. so it's a win win

VOTE: Enchant

[fireisredsir]

Like to me it's Very Goofy to think that a team I'm on throws away the entire idea that Gamma is the deepwolf we've been propping up on a night kill like that, knowing what the most likely outcome was. It screws me over and removes like, most factors that were keeping me alive this entire time.

this is easy for you to say in hindsight like "this was the wrong kill to make!!" but you can't have known what RR was going to do. RR basically said he was sheeping gorilla, and if he was true to that, then gorilla's path was a winning path for you. he would flip meuh, shoot you, and then the final lim based on gorilla's plan would be me

like you can say all you want that RR was never shooting you but there just isn't evidence of that in the thread so your scumteam wouldn't actually have any way of knowing that

[Kovu]

that was to save cakez... and I'd almost bet scum wanted cakez to go over

[Fey]

Also like, the Val kill makes 0 sense from fire. We were discussing how we thought Val was maf, and his reaction to that town flip was just like mine.. aghhhh

I think it's erroneous to say that kill makes little sense from fire specifically when, iirc the grander picture was that Val could have generated potential clears. That doesn't have a lot to do with fire specifically.

To go on that same logic why do I and Gamma decide to kill R+R?

[fireisredsir]

Like literally look at something like this. Fire isn't using anything meaningful to actually slot Gamma as town -- they're falling back on theory and saying "oh, Gamma is making a silly mistake and it's definitely like wrong but it's also town by the way soo it's all fine."

And then you have like a pithy vote on Dunn and then suddenly "oh I actually like Dunn... because Gamma said some good stuff about Dunn. But also I don't know if Gamma's really doing the towniest of things (AND THIS IS SAID RIGHT AFTER SAYING I THINK GAMMA HAS A TOWNY MINDSET FOR MISTAKE-MAKING BTW) so maybe I shouldn't follow but oh well let's just not vote Dunn anymore and look at Meuh, isn't she super scummy look at all these things, let's just move my vote onto Meuh instead."

lmao you aren't even reading my posts at this point you're just throwing everything out to try to get something

i didn't say that i liked dunn bc of things gamma said. i said that i liked dunn because he made good points about gamma being scummy and that made me reconsider my read on both dunn and gamma