Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Fey]

Like to me it's Very Goofy to think that a team I'm on throws away the entire idea that Gamma is the deepwolf we've been propping up on a night kill like that, knowing what the most likely outcome was. It screws me over and removes like, most factors that were keeping me alive this entire time.

this is easy for you to say in hindsight like "this was the wrong kill to make!!" but you can't have known what RR was going to do. RR basically said he was sheeping gorilla, and if he was true to that, then gorilla's path was a winning path for you. he would flip meuh, shoot you, and then the final lim based on gorilla's plan would be me

like you can say all you want that RR was never shooting you but there just isn't evidence of that in the thread so your scumteam wouldn't actually have any way of knowing that

Please explain the benefits of killing R+R.

If R+R shoots me our "deepwolf" is alive.

If R+R shoots Gamma I've gotten rid of the one person protecting me AND my deepwolf... for what, exactly?

[Fey]

Like literally look at something like this. Fire isn't using anything meaningful to actually slot Gamma as town -- they're falling back on theory and saying "oh, Gamma is making a silly mistake and it's definitely like wrong but it's also town by the way soo it's all fine."

And then you have like a pithy vote on Dunn and then suddenly "oh I actually like Dunn... because Gamma said some good stuff about Dunn. But also I don't know if Gamma's really doing the towniest of things (AND THIS IS SAID RIGHT AFTER SAYING I THINK GAMMA HAS A TOWNY MINDSET FOR MISTAKE-MAKING BTW) so maybe I shouldn't follow but oh well let's just not vote Dunn anymore and look at Meuh, isn't she super scummy look at all these things, let's just move my vote onto Meuh instead."

lmao you aren't even reading my posts at this point you're just throwing everything out to try to get something

i didn't say that i liked dunn bc of things gamma said. i said that i liked dunn because he made good points about gamma being scummy and that made me reconsider my read on both dunn and gamma

I'm literally saying your progression between those two posts makes zero sense because you were like "towny mentality on Gamma" to "hmm I don't know" and then saying Dunn makes some good points, and then IMMEDIATELY pivoting onto someone else to kill instead.

[Fey]

Like this entire game you've found reasons to townread Gamma and Dunn and you make the token efforts to "reconsider" them and pretend you're trying to solve them. And then you just end up going somewhere else entirely after it's all said and done and oh no, town's dead.

Like Jesus when have you seriously tried, in any capacity, to wagon out mafia this game?

When have you not sat on someone for a bit and just jumped off to something else?

[Fey]

My posting at times is sparse and I'll own I've had some shit reads but like my God, the fact that you are able to suddenly able to form an entire narrative after a game of missing the mark repeatedly and not be instantly voted is fucking mind boggling to me.

[Fey]

Oh right, this was a thing too, like, scum had no need to campaign for an enchant lim? uhh I need to see the other wagons at the time

ok I just had a thought, maybe it's dumb but hear me out

am i 100% convinced enchant is maf? no, not at all

when i try to imagine what scum teams there could be, is enchant on the vast majority of them? yes

does enchant 100% need to be resolved before elo? yes

and the thing I realized is... even on the off chance that enchant is town here, im pretty sure scum would actually want them not to be limmed? like, think about it. if we flip someone else today, im guessing a lot of the town will be heading into the night with invictus on enchant. i know i probably will. people are tired of hero shots, and just want to narrow the poe. it makes sense. but thats actually shielding for scum. if they know that enchant is town, then they want everyone's invictus on them because invictus shots are much harder to predict compared to their ability to influence the lim during the day. limming enchant removes that shield and makes it harder for them to feel safe with their night kill

and the pretty likely alternative is that enchant is just scum. so it's a win win

VOTE: Enchant

It's hopping from one town wagon to the next. It's the sort of thing you fake to say "oh I have cold feet on one, but this other one (with frankly a lot less reason to be townread at the time)? This is good stuff."

It's all performative. You get the benefit of looking townier and not just riding the wave mindlessly.

[Fey]

to borrow a line from Conan Doyle as we've been working on that in my classes recently: once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth

I think there are plenty of things that Fey has done that make it

improbable

that she's town -- but the one thing she did has made me think that it's almost

impossible

that she's scum (again, unless she's completely changed what she does when playing)

and so that one thing is more important fmpov than all the other stuff

~Rhyme

(I'd still take a cop check though just because committing to anything with this degree of support makes me incredibly paranoid bc sadly I still have an ego and don't want to be dead wrong in front of everyone)

Like I'm gonna fall back on this and you can point and say "oh but he was paranoid here"

but please just read the fucking bold.

And ask again why in the world do I kill R+R again, knowing I more than likely survive the shot?

[fireisredsir]

Like to me it's Very Goofy to think that a team I'm on throws away the entire idea that Gamma is the deepwolf we've been propping up on a night kill like that, knowing what the most likely outcome was. It screws me over and removes like, most factors that were keeping me alive this entire time.

this is easy for you to say in hindsight like "this was the wrong kill to make!!" but you can't have known what RR was going to do. RR basically said he was sheeping gorilla, and if he was true to that, then gorilla's path was a winning path for you. he would flip meuh, shoot you, and then the final lim based on gorilla's plan would be me

like you can say all you want that RR was never shooting you but there just isn't evidence of that in the thread so your scumteam wouldn't actually have any way of knowing that

Please explain the benefits of killing R+R.

If R+R shoots me our "deepwolf" is alive.

If R+R shoots Gamma I've gotten rid of the one person protecting me AND my deepwolf... for what, exactly?

you really need me to explain the benefits of killing a conftown before elo? RR is smart enough to know that if he survives to elo AS CONFTOWN SINCE D2 then he's there bc he is useful to scum. you cannot seriously be pretending like you don't know this, thats ridiculous

[Fey]

Like to me it's Very Goofy to think that a team I'm on throws away the entire idea that Gamma is the deepwolf we've been propping up on a night kill like that, knowing what the most likely outcome was. It screws me over and removes like, most factors that were keeping me alive this entire time.

this is easy for you to say in hindsight like "this was the wrong kill to make!!" but you can't have known what RR was going to do. RR basically said he was sheeping gorilla, and if he was true to that, then gorilla's path was a winning path for you. he would flip meuh, shoot you, and then the final lim based on gorilla's plan would be me

like you can say all you want that RR was never shooting you but there just isn't evidence of that in the thread so your scumteam wouldn't actually have any way of knowing that

Please explain the benefits of killing R+R.

If R+R shoots me our "deepwolf" is alive.

If R+R shoots Gamma I've gotten rid of the one person protecting me AND my deepwolf... for what, exactly?

you really need me to explain the benefits of killing a conftown before elo? RR is smart enough to know that if he survives to elo AS CONFTOWN SINCE D2 then he's there bc he is useful to scum. you cannot seriously be pretending like you don't know this, thats ridiculous

Acting as if being conftown alone is a saving grace that requires a kill is ridiculous and you know that.

I will not argue that the slot is incapable of re-evaluating but by everything said at that point, the idea that R+R would reconsider on me, specifically, is lower than it is on another player. They would do so, yes, but reaching a different conclusion

with a now-dead Gamma

weighs it far more in my favor.

[Fey]

I'm at the point of crying so I'll just come back later, whatever.

[fireisredsir]

Like this entire game you've found reasons to townread Gamma and Dunn and you make the token efforts to "reconsider" them and pretend you're trying to solve them. And then you just end up going somewhere else entirely after it's all said and done and oh no, town's dead.

Like Jesus when have you seriously tried, in any capacity, to wagon out mafia this game?

When have you not sat on someone for a bit and just jumped off to something else?

i encouraged kovu to start the marci wagon. i actually started interrogating marci in the first place on early d1 and started most of the suspicion on her

ive also been pushing for your lim most of this game except for yesterday where i thought it was meuh+gamma, so that's one! going into d3 i was on dunn/fey as looking the most paired and i stopped people from just speedwagoning cakez bc i wasn't sure on that being scum

like ik ive made mistakes and haven't played great this game, otherwise i wouldn't still be here for you to try to mislim, but i think my thought process is still clear and towny even if i ended up being wrong a lot

[Kovu]

Sorry if I'm wrong, I'll be ending the day real soon, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm gonna do, not gonna drag this out 7 days to not change my mind. you both have really strong points FOR you, but what it's coming down to most is Gamma/Dunn/marci's interactions with yall, and yall's interactions with them tbh

[Fey]

You started most of the suspicion on her and then you voted Lavar.

You've been pushing for me like, most of the game but never make a meaningful effort. You never even vote me -- the like what, two times you vote scum? You

almost immediately find a reason to jump off despite your suspicions.

They vanish. They become dull in the face of shinier choices.

It's all just fucking acting.

[Fey]

Like whatever I can't fucking help myself from posting but it's so obvious that everything was just token efforts. Fake "oh but what if... oh my feet are cold... but what if this person was scum" and there's nothing real behind it. The few times you're "right", you find a way to not make those things matter.

Whatever!!!!!!!

[fireisredsir]

I will not argue that the slot is incapable of re-evaluating but by everything said at that point, the idea that R+R would reconsider on me, specifically, is lower than it is on another player. They would do so, yes, but reaching a different conclusion with a now-dead Gamma weighs it far more in my favor.

based on what RR had said in thread to that point, he had wanted to follow the gorilla plan. which, again, would be winning for you

[Fey]

You come into today with the silly gotchas, write up like a literal narrative that you somehow couldn't see all game despite also apparently being right and pushing the right things and protecting the town, blah blah blah. It takes me physically confirming myself before somehow you open your eyes to whatever's been happening while ALSO spending thousands of posts solving with someone, which is a luxury in this game that you put to waste.

[fireisredsir]

You've been pushing for me like, most of the game but never make a meaningful effort. You never even vote me -- the like what, two times you vote scum? You almost immediately find a reason to jump off despite your suspicions. They vanish. They become dull in the face of shinier choices.

this doesn't really make sense as a response btw bc if im scum then you're town. but here you're treating my lack of push on you, scum, as reason for me not being town and not pushing scum

[Fey]

I will not argue that the slot is incapable of re-evaluating but by everything said at that point, the idea that R+R would reconsider on me, specifically, is lower than it is on another player. They would do so, yes, but reaching a different conclusion with a now-dead Gamma weighs it far more in my favor.

based on what RR had said in thread to that point, he had wanted to follow the gorilla plan. which, again, would be winning for you

R+R said they wanted to kill Meuh based on dead people's reads.

How is that winning beyond getting my team (1) miselim.

We'd still have to fight through fucking ELO.

[Fey]

You've been pushing for me like, most of the game but never make a meaningful effort. You never even vote me -- the like what, two times you vote scum? You almost immediately find a reason to jump off despite your suspicions. They vanish. They become dull in the face of shinier choices.

this doesn't really make sense as a response btw bc if im scum then you're town. but here you're treating my lack of push on you, scum, as reason for me not being town and not pushing scum

...???????

I'm literally saying that you're only being ""right"" now on me as a gotcha rather as anything that actually matters. You're going "oh look at me, I was right back then, darn".

In a world where I'm scum and you're town you've decided to not try harder to kill me for... some reason? Didn't even vote me?

Which doesn't make sense for town you.

[Fey]

It's literally just "oh I was right all along teehee silly me. But now I can make it right, and kill you!"

(The mafia wins!)

[fireisredsir]

Actually, I realistically don't care anymore. Rhyme & Reason's play has been genuinely pathetic and I want them to lose this game. I won't selfvote because then I'll get yelled at for gamethrowing, but realistically their play should be seen as the single biggest determinant factor in this town loss. It's not about being wrong, of course - everyone is going to be wrong at points in a game of mafia and plenty of people have been wrong. It's the fact that as confirmed town, they and Bell have been completely gutless and spineless, utterly inept and unwilling to take charge or engage substantively. It is genuinely infuriating and the most absurdly poor play imaginable. Make no mistake, they are the single biggest catalysts of a loss here.

So go ahead and vote me.

I will be flipped, and I will reveal as town, and then I will be MORE confirmed town than either of them. (I don't think it's likely that either of them have been falsely cleared by bastard shenanigans or a godfather role. But the only way to be 100% sure is when someone is dead and revealed by the moderator). After that, you should listen to

ME

, and not them, because their cowardly ineptitude has allowed this game to to reach a horrible state. They cannot and should not be trusted to make correct decisions. They have proven themselves incapable of doing so.

You will do the following:

Invictus Dunnstral.

I have had one scumread since the start of day 2. The game has repeatedly refused to kill him, while he has continued to do nothing but reactively accuse those who suspect him. It completely pathetic if you allow yourselves to lose to someone who has done as little as he has. He is flamingly obvious scum.

Kill Meuh, then Fey.

The order realistically doesn't matter here, you can do it the other way around, but the spiteful side of me wants Meuh shoved over during the day because I think she's pushing absolute bullshit right now.

That

should

net you at least 2/3 scum, if not the entire team. If not, you were pretty much always going to lose this game.

Depends on flips:

If Fey is somehow town -> kill gammagooey.

His protection of Meuh and attempts to un-align her and Dunnstral while pushing Fey as an elim have obvious scum motivation.

If Meuh is somehow town -> kill fire.

His attempt to divert the elim to her today is an obvious setup to get me invictus'd tonight and win the game outright for scum. Gammagooey is never scum with a Dunn/Fey team.


I think this is a reasonable and logical path forward. It should be enough to win the game in spite of the play of the clears, as long as they have the sense to actually LISTEN to what other people are saying in this game for once.

Dunn, vote gorilla if you’re still around

Meuh, put your vote back on gorilla

Kovu and Bell will vote gorilla once they get here.

There’s jackshit to read Gorilla as town from, my townreads have been overwhelmingly correct from early game which makes me want to go back to my stronger earlier reads which was that Gorilla!scum is a thing, the claim was the only clearing thing but the repeated hard dips into AtE and crying is doing nothing for me

If I’m wrong, fine, we can sheep Gorilla. But so far the “vote the scummy slot that didn’t do much” approach has been awful given that Cakez and Enchant were both town and so I think scum have had a stronger influence than it appears — who has been pushing for that type of policy lim most strongly? Gorilla

And I think there’s a major disconnect between the words and the actions e.g. trying to leave a winning blueprint while simultaneously going on about how he wants our slot to lose

~Rhyme

Okay we kill meuh

Bell had her in his solve (also thinks it’s gamma)

Gorilla said meuh next

After that idk, I still think gamma>fey but Fey was in the same section of my early reads as dunn so quite possibly I’m just wrong?

VOTE: meuh

my plan is still just to sheep Gorilla and Bell and kill meuh

~Rhyme

[Fey]

Quoting the masterpost of whatever gorilla thought doesn't matter when

in application

the only part that RR actually cared about was Meuh. There's no reference to the rest of it in the moment.

[Fey]

Going to close thread now so I don't get sick

Bye.

[fireisredsir]

You come into today with the silly gotchas, write up like a literal narrative that you somehow couldn't see all game despite also apparently being right and pushing the right things and protecting the town, blah blah blah. It takes me physically confirming myself before somehow you open your eyes to whatever's been happening while ALSO spending thousands of posts solving with someone, which is a luxury in this game that you put to waste.

i think you seriously underestimate the amount of solving we did do in the hood lol

a lot of that was stuff we had already talked about and thought about. i just wasn't able to put all of the pieces together until it was in front of me, and yea, that's my bad for not being able to find the solve until it's confirmed for me, but treating it as if me now understanding your plan is so incomprehensible to you is just ????

[fireisredsir]

You've been pushing for me like, most of the game but never make a meaningful effort. You never even vote me -- the like what, two times you vote scum? You almost immediately find a reason to jump off despite your suspicions. They vanish. They become dull in the face of shinier choices.

this doesn't really make sense as a response btw bc if im scum then you're town. but here you're treating my lack of push on you, scum, as reason for me not being town and not pushing scum

...???????

I'm literally saying that you're only being ""right"" now on me as a gotcha rather as anything that actually matters. You're going "oh look at me, I was right back then, darn".

In a world where I'm scum and you're town you've decided to not try harder to kill me for... some reason? Didn't even vote me?

Which doesn't make sense for town you.

my thought process and progressions are clear in both the thread and the hood and i think they speak for themselves here

and speaking of that you've still ignored how your progression on gamma is paper thin and how you spend d3 and d4 preflipping him and pushing his "partners" despite never really even explaining why you got so convinced he was scum, or ever trying to get anyone else to vote there. it's all just distancing

[Kovu]

Ok, I have my decision. It was not easy and I went back and forth a bunch, but this is what I'm gonna do. If I'm wrong. I'm sorry, just given the situation, I've tried my absolute best. I'm not blaming this hammer on anyone, if it's wrong... ahhhh I'm sorry!! but... here's the end.. of a very long game. Looking back, I'm sure there is so much we'd all have done differently. At the end of the day, I hope all yall had a good time!

But now the serious stuff... I just.. I really think it's Fey, there is SO MUCH from fire, that I genuinely can't see coming from maf.
Fire, if you were mafia? That was an amazing job. like, there's a lot I've looked at and I'm just like, ehh maybe this 1 thing could make fire scum, but overall... I can't justify fire being mafia over Fey here.

Alright here we go.... ahhhhh I'm so nervous, like it should just be Fey, but if it's not... AHHHHHHHH

VOTE: Fey