Mini 2006: Scummer in this game UPick GAME OVER

[mastina]

Wow, notice how shit and apathetic this game has got? Its almost like lynching someone on page 70 when I said would have been better!

I mean.

I've been trying to get Wisdom/OnTheMark, MariaR, and Kokichi Oma lynched for...well.

Basically the whole game.

So when you're with me on one of those names. I've been doing what I can to support you ya know.

And because Nico to a large extent trusts/supports me. She's an automatic third voice.

It's getting the other four which is the trick.

[Mathdino]

so mastina and nicorobin are obviously lying regardless of card right?

Here. He fed some bs about us not being masons, and you instantly believe him without question, as this post clearly shows.....

i would've said that regardless of who said "mastina claimed mason"

that had little to nothing to do with mathblade's take on it

WHICH I IMMEDIATELY CALLED DISGUSTINGLY BIASED

you have a victim complex assuming people are against you here

[Mathdino]

like if i myself came across a mastina post claiming to be masons with you, then the immediate first thought is "lol mastina is lying"

she claimed mason with my scumbuddy literally last game the 3 of us were in

[NicoRobin]

so mastina and nicorobin are obviously lying regardless of card right?

Here. He fed some bs about us not being masons, and you instantly believe him without question, as this post clearly shows.....

i would've said that regardless of who said "mastina claimed mason"

that had little to nothing to do with mathblade's take on it

WHICH I IMMEDIATELY CALLED DISGUSTINGLY BIASED

you have a victim complex assuming people are against you here

Even if she did lie, which she didn't this time around, I don't lie. His idea of us being scum masons falls flat because I wouldn't go along with mastina's lies unless there is an irrefutable proof I lied. I made that mistake already, and I swore to never make that same mistake again. Him insinuating I will is an attack against my character as far as I am concerned.

[NicoRobin]

So if ask him whether he thinks that I still haven't learned not to trust anyone who isn't confirmable to me after being manipulated by scum who shared a PT with me? Go on, ask him. His response will be some sort of jab at my integrity and how I am 'likely to believe mastina in any circumstances' despite the fact that I swore never to make that mistake again and am far more likely to question any statements/plans/ideas made by anyone who isn't confirmable to me....

[Mathdino]

Why are you still arguing this

The point I want to make to you is

1. Stop it, you're adding nothing to the game

2. Don't patronize me by both incorrectly assuming what my reads are and "saving" me from evil mathblades influence

[mastina]

3) mastina claimed mason and neg utility power role (granting ninja if memory serves) and is giving it to momomen and not her mason partner. Nico should be mastina’s top townread as masons.

Oh is this the spot?

WELL THEN.

That's actually perfect.

Because guess what?

I can answer this in one fell swoop, and provide hard fucking evidence.

The reason I am not targeting NicoRobin my fucking mason partner with the negative utility role I am compulsively required to give out is because

the ability specifies I cannot give it to NicoRobin

. Quite literally. The ability says (paraphrasing):
"You must give the track/watch immunity passive to

another player

by the end of the day. If you don't select a target, I'll randomize it for you.
Your target can't be NicoRobin."

That's as close as a direct quote as I can fucking get without getting modkilled. That's what the ability says. It must be another player (so I cannot self-target), and I cannot target NicoRobin.

Which.
Yaknow.
Makes a whole lot of sense.
Because if I could, damn fucking straight I'd give my ability to THE PLAYER I KNOW IS FUCKING CONFIRMED TOWN TO ME. It being a role harmless to give to town.

And my proof of this?

My readslist.

MOMOMEN (I'd give them the ninja, but I'm not sure it'd be wise to combine their existing negative utility with another)
NicoRobin
Momrangal
MariaR
Lovebird
Kokichi Oma
RedFlavor
beeboy
Lady Lambdadelta
Sudowoodo
CheekyTeeky
Wisdom

Readslist right now.
for some degree of clarity, LLD/beeboy/RedFlavor's positions are somewhat interchangeable since all are about the same level of 'null', but when forcing one to be higher than the other, this is the order I most felt was right, so it's what I went with.

You know

why

I ordered my list this way?

Because of my fucking negative utility role. At the time, I didn't want to say I couldn't target NicoRobin with it. People would obviously wonder why I couldn't target that specific player with it, which would give a hint as to our true nature of being masons. (Because IT WAS NOT MY IDEA TO CLAIM MASONS; I WANTED TO BE MORE COVERT.) So given that. I needed her as my

second-strongest

townread rather than my strongest.

My plan was to target my strongest townread with the ability. (Which is and remains Momomen.) If I put my mason as my strongest townread, people would wonder, "Why didn't you target your strongest townread?" I would have no good answer to this without revealing our nature, which I intended to not do. But by having her as my second-strongest townread. Nobody questions not targeting her. "Why didn't you target your second-strongest townread?" is not a question people ask; "Why didn't you target your strongest townread?" IS a question people ask.

I was also looking for feedback at the time, for damn good reason.

If Momomen's negative utility role was such that they said that they were a bad target, then I would look for feedback and eventually move NicoRobin down to my third townread and someone to be above her as either my strongest or second-strongest townread to instead be the recipient of the ability. I kept asking them about things to this end to try and see if it was viable to target them.

It turned out eventually that it was, so there was no need to make that artificial adjustment to my readslist and bump Nico Robin down a level, but this was what I was going for. Basically, to make it unambiguously clear she was a HARD townread (every instance of our iso says as much)...
...But to also place her in a position where people wouldn't wonder why I didn't target HER with the negative utility. Because doing so would place me in a position where there was no good answer except outing "Because I couldn't target her" which would by proxy lead people to wonder WHY I couldn't target her and thus expose...that we are fucking masons.

Not a hard train of logic to follow and it's right fucking there in the thread for all to see.

[NicoRobin]

Why are you still arguing this

The point I want to make to you is

1. Stop it, you're adding nothing to the game

2. Don't patronize me by both incorrectly assuming what my reads are and "saving" me from evil mathblades influence

So you are suggesting I just roll over and let him get rid of both of us? :/

[mastina]

4) My role while neg utilty seems to directly counter what Mastina is doing.

Your neg utility role counters her neg utility role... you would have had a MUCH better time trying to ship those roles as town synergy. Lol.

Also as a continued point. Mathblade--and Wisdom before him--have continued to refuse to claim the role. They've both said "We've claimed it! We're a negative utility role, which counters/is similar to mastina's, and using it we can help do somethingoranother".

That's not a fucking claim.

That's a description.

A (partially redacted) fullclaim of my role?

Formatting of what a Fullclaim is

Sudowoodo, Town (redacted because this part has not been fullclaimed) Mason.
Description of my redacted abilities.
One of my redacted abilities is how I have the ability,

Formatting of Sub-ability

Day One - Twin Trap Mafia (the flavorname of the ability)
1-x Compulsive Track/Watch-Immune D1 Distributor (the name of the ability)
I am required to hand out a track/watch-immunity to a player by the end of D1; if I don't select a target, it'll be randomized for me. I can't target NicoRobin.

In addition to those abilities, I am a mason with NicoRobin.
We have a private topic, named "Mini 2006: MASON PT".

The formatting doesn't have to be exactly like that.
But that's what I'd expect.

Now here's me attempting to use the same formatting, off of what OnTheMark/Wisdom have provided previously.

Their "Claim"

mastina, ????????? (never specified)
????????????
I have a negative utility. It can ensure protections succeed. It is similar/a counter to mastina's negative utility.
(Maybe a few other scattered details here and there.)
???????????

Do you notice a difference?

I sure as hell do.

[mastina]

Also, point of fact.

As town, the most memetic thing about me is the mason gambit. I would not say that's the most notable aspect of my townplay, but it is the most READILY KNOWN facet of my townplay. I am known for mason gambits. Momrangal, who is flavored as mastina, is a Mason Cop. This makes sense.

As scum, the most memetic thing about my scumplay is my perception of being a strong scum player and having a strong ability to fuck with the town. Regardless of your opinion on the accuracy of that, this is more or less a fair assessment of it, yes? What kind of ability would you wager that this scumastina would be given? I would bet it'd be something that'd fuck with the town--something anti-town...and yet. If Cheet did his research. It would be something anti-town, pro-scum, but still be claimable because scumastina doesn't lie and thus a role crafted on her scumplay would be such that scum would be able to claim it if they so chose.

Wisdom, now OnTheMark, has an ability which is negative utility, anti-town, and yet which they have been vague about, hesitant to fullclaim.

I think you can see where I'm going with this, yes?

Wisdom (now OnTheMark) has scum flavor for scumastina; Momrangal has town flavor for town mastina. I would know, because I being mastina. Know what sorts of things I'm likely to be flavored off of. Does flavor correlate to alignment? Not necessarily, I readily admit. But it's a damn-good augmentation to the already-existing evidence.

[Cheetory6]

Nahdia replaces in for beeboy.

[OnTheMark]

Nahdia

Quick before you read

Your slot had claimed masons with Lovebird

Do you confirm?

[OnTheMark]

And godfather do you confirm that?

[NicoRobin]

Don't answer that. This guy has no qualms about mislynching masons.....

[mastina]

If the game is unwinnable for scum with the current set of assumptions/setup spec it has to be wrong.

The thing is, assuming the four masons are all town is NOT the assumption players are likely to default to. The only reason players

have

is because Nico Robin is transparently town, I am transparently not gambiting and have an established meta in spite of my reputation for mason gambits of NOT fakeclaiming as scum, beeboy is transparently town, and Lovebird is transparently town even without the probability that Lovebird is just the alt of a certain player that is tremendously bad at scumplay and hilariously obviously town when town. (If Lovebird is said player. Then Lovebird goes from high-probability town to absolute-certainty town.)

The only reasons the masons are being treated as masons is because they have townplay to back it up in addition to established breadcrumbs which heavily hinted at their mason nature before claiming masons. As a reviewer. You balance off of the assumptions of how players will perceive the roles. Not off of the assumptions of what's optimal. As a reviewer. You balance off the assumption that masons counterclaiming one another can and very well might lead to one if not two mason lynches.

Because it takes PERFECT TOWNPLAY for two sets of masons to not have exactly that happen. It takes PERFECTLY READING THE SITUATION AS ALL FOUR BEING GENUINE MASONS for the town to be given that advantage.

FURTHERMORE

. Onto the next part. Four conftown in the game does NOT, in of itself, grant victory. Scum get three nightkills before the earliest lylo, assuming no extra kills happen or no kills are stopped. (Both of which are possible, but LET'S ASSUME one lynch happens per day and one lynch happens at night.)

That means if a mason dies each night with a mislynch each day, you go into 7p lylo with one conftown and six possible scum--fair odds for the scum.

One scum dead?

Then you get to 5p lylo with the fourth mason nightkilled and thus zero conftown--everyone alive possible scum; I'd say that's fair odds for the scum!

Yet alone 3p lylo; that's at minimum two extra nightkills to spare. The scum by this point have had six nightkills to kill four masons, giving them the chance to leave masons alive twice to hunt roles which are more important than masons to kill, and STILL come out with zero conftown in the resulting lylo.

And FURTHERMORE.

Four conftown in a mini?

That's about statistically normal.

You make it out to be some freak of nature. Something which Jingle couldn't possibly pass--on the contrary, Jingle's one of the few reviewers smart enough to know the math behind that and why four conftown is

precisely

the right number to have in a mini in that four conftown is about the amount you get in more typical minis. Say you have a mini with a cop, a doctor, a throwaway third role, and a scum roleblocker. The expected value for a setup like that would be somewhere in the range of 3-4 conftown on average. The setup I propose might not be the best example and I can pull up past mini normals to give better ones, but the point I am making holds regardless.

Your point is wrong on every level and if you were town you would fucking know it was wrong on every level because you've played enough games to know literally everything I'm saying here holds true.

[mastina]

Also I'm at the point where I'm almost willing to just throw up my hands in exasperation and in spite of how I am desperately bad at wording things.
Try to lay out.
Exactly the process.
By which Momrangal is all-but-conftown by virtue of being a Mason Cop, AND, why her being a mason cop is proof that there's four masons not two in the game.

The two mutually build off of one another here.

To give a basic version.
From the omnipotent point of the mod. Momrangal's role as a Mason Cop perfectly fits into the setup as a town role which has the perfect synergy with the four town masons...
...
...Yet this is from the omnipotent viewpoint. The perspective of the person who knows everything. When you know everything about the setup, Momrangal's role helps to hold it together, to glue it into one coherent piece which is sensible and practical and beautiful. It gives an aesthetical value which is just gorgeous setup design...but only with the benefit of either hindsight or perfect knowledge.

Given IMPERFECT KNOWLEDGE. Given the KNOWLEDGE OF PLAYERS IN THE GAME. The role of a Mason Cop feels like a scum role--it informs the scum that there are masons in the game, and serves as a bit of a nerfed rolecop in that it searches for masons, allowing them to more readily locate and kill the masons. This is what most players will assume when they see a claim of mason cop. And thus, most players will assume it is a scum role.

And that's part of what balances the role and makes it not overwhelmingly gamebreaking for the town--Momrangal is never cleared by role; Momrangal is only cleared by setup speculation if you get the setup speculation dead on the money. In all other cases, Momrangal is likely to not only be seen as suspicious as role but have amateur setup speccers who are incompetent at setup speccing assume that her role can only make sense as scum.

In short, Momrangal gives the town glue, which holds everything together and makes everything make sense...but the only way to know this is to be the moderator or reviewer or in postgame. And without being one of those, from the viewpoint of a player, she not only isn't cleared but looks suspicious. Making her an easy mislynch, and therefore weakening the strength of her role and impact on the game.

And yes.

This is the fucking short version.

Because I could write a fucking essay here on why I feel the way I do about all of Momrangal/beeboy/Lovebird being town in spite of me knowing I am a mason with NicoRobin because there is a certain beauty to it which I recognize as something Jingle would approve of with flying colors--an elegance to it which is immediately obvious in postgame but which isn't readily apparent during the game.

And the only reason that I see it is because I have extensive experience working with this exact mechanic and have seen Jingle react almost this exact way--the way I am doing things here is basically what Jingle did in Iambic Tetrameter. He realized that his role of PT Enabler fit with the town Neighborizer, the PT cop, and the Masons and in spite of the conflict between those roles, he recognized that they were all beautiful in the same sense I am describing here: roles which from the PLAYER PERSPECTIVE conflicted, but from the PERFECT VIEW OF THE MODERATOR had synergy with the balance in the game coming from a merger, midway point, of the two, more or less.

[NicoRobin]

23 hours left, now hammer...... :/

[mastina]

...AND THIS IS WHY.
Continuing to shade the masons.
Comes from scum.

Continuing to doubtcast the masons.
Comes from scum.

Continuing to wagon Momrangal.
Comes from scum.

When you pair 3415 with 3414, with hints of 3409, the design of this game becomes readily apparent. We were not meant to put two and two together, but by putting two and two together, scum are placed in a tight spot. We have five players who, by all rights, should be considered conftown on the merits of the game being designed around those five players.

I know that sounds presumptuous. This being a UPick and all and with me as one of said players. But it's true--we have ten roles total, sure, yeah. But the backbone of the town's strength comes not in the five unknowns (well, five semi-unknowns at the very least given that at least one of Cheeky/Pine is gonna be town and the significant chance momomen are town), but rather, from the five known players.

I HAVE MORE PROOF FOR MY THEORY/SETUP SPEC AS WELL.
Which ties into the theory I mentioned previously. I said that I had a theory which I cannot prove on D1, but by D2 I can have a definitive answer for--and that regardless of whether I get a definitive answer or not, I'll be claiming tomorrow in part to share my theory (and because if my theory is correct, I would have damn good reasons to fullclaim).

This theory, Yume knows. And it's actually one of the reasons why Yume wants to die, because she agrees with my theory.

I will not share this theory today, just as I will not fullclaim today. But I will say that if my theory is correct, then the game has a built-in self-balance mechanism: the town has incentive to not want the masons alive in spite of them being conftown; the scum might have incentive to keep the masons alive in spite of them being conftown. The specifics beyond this, I'm not willing to share but if my theory is correct.

And I have good reason to believe it is.

Everything in the setup that we know makes perfect sense.

The town has some significant strength to it--balanced out by both built-in doubt to said strength AND the negative utilities flying around this game. After all. LLD has a sticky vote (negative utility), Momomen if lynched doesn't flip (negative utility), beeboy is a Godfather (negative utility), I am a compulsive ninja-maker (negative utility), and Wisdom/OnTheMark have a vague unspecific negative utility. I'm probably missing one or two, too. But you get my point--we can't all be scum, which means at least some of those if not most of those negative utilities are TOWN negative utilities.

[NicoRobin]

If you won't listen to me, listen to her for once. I am still bitter about the fact that my faction lost because members of said faction wouldn't listen to her.

So go do me a favor and listen to her and Momo dammit.

NicoRobin out

[NicoRobin]

Like you are sitting here doing nothing while calling the one player who actually does something 'dumb'. You can call me 'dumb' all you like, but you will not be calling one of the best players I know 'dumb'. Not on my watch.

[Nahdia]

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT. I'm

BACK

, baby.

Yall been posting up a goshdarn storm which totally blows but I get it. Could someone who has been paying attention gimmie a summary of the particularly important stuff that has happened in that time, like claims etc.? I'm gonna get reading but I'd still appreciate that so I can get some participation in before the day ends.

I'm also gonna be trying to keep my posting relatively terse out of sympathy for our dear moderator Cheetory6, whom I feel a particular kinship with as I too have moderated games that have exorbitantly long day 1s.

UNVOTE:

[Mathdino]

Yall been posting up a goshdarn storm which totally blows but I get it. Could someone who has been paying attention gimmie a summary of the particularly important stuff that has happened in that time, like claims etc.? I'm gonna get reading but I'd still appreciate that so I can get some participation in before the day ends.

heads up, you're not gonna get this out of this playerlist, i already tried

the only people that are in a headspace to do so are

- someone who has claimed flipless (fucking lol)

- someone who is known for good scumplay

[mastina]

My modifier is enabler, and I enable her role.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING I WANTED YOU TO CLAIM DAMMIT.

Okay so continuing the trend of full disclosure.

With this outed.

I am

still

not fullclaimed, albeit I am much closer to being fullclaimed. That gives us this.

Formatting of what a Fullclaim is

Sudowoodo, Town

Enabled

(redacted because this part has not been fullclaimed) Mason.
Description of my redacted abilities.
One of my redacted abilities is how I have the ability,

Formatting of Sub-ability

Day One - Twin Trap Mafia (the flavorname of the ability)
1-x Compulsive Track/Watch-Immune D1 Distributor (the name of the ability)
I am required to hand out a track/watch-immunity to a player by the end of D1; if I don't select a target, it'll be randomized for me. I can't target NicoRobin.

In addition to those abilities, I am a mason with NicoRobin.

NicoRobin enables all of my abilities.

We have a private topic, named "Mini 2006: MASON PT".

Bolded are the new parts which were previously absent from my claim.

Soyes.

I am STILL not fullclaimed.

And I STILL intend not to fullclaim today, and STILL intend to fullclaim tomorrow.

BUT.

I will say that Nico wants to die because she believes her enabling me is not a good thing for the town. A sentiment which may or may not be right, but at the very least the idea holds merit. This should help to explain QUITE a lot of our play.

And yes. Still masons. We are not gambitting, with us being neighbors and her enabling me being why we claimed masons. We are MASONS. Conftown to one another. Confirmed by the mod, explicitly, to be so. In our role title, and via him answering us when Yume asked. Conftown to one another. Not confirmed same alignment, even. CONFTOWN. Those exact words.

[NicoRobin]

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT. I'm

BACK

, baby.

Yall been posting up a goshdarn storm which totally blows but I get it. Could someone who has been paying attention gimmie a summary of the particularly important stuff that has happened in that time, like claims etc.? I'm gonna get reading but I'd still appreciate that so I can get some participation in before the day ends.

I'm also gonna be trying to keep my posting relatively terse out of sympathy for our dear moderator Cheetory6, whom I feel a particular kinship with as I too have moderated games that have exorbitantly long day 1s.

UNVOTE:

Me and mastina are masons, so are Beeboy and Love.

And don't listen to anything said by OTM, he is a mafia manipulator.

[NicoRobin]

My modifier is enabler, and I enable her role.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING I WANTED YOU TO CLAIM DAMMIT.

Sowwy.