Mini Normal 2058 (Endgame)

[Flavor Leaf]

Idk how the moron comment helps your cause. Then you just keep getting 1-upp’d by a moron.

[Flavor Leaf]

uhm.

your booneytoonz games were far more reasonable than this.

Fair. Yeah, I wouldn’t have done 9:4. I have a tendency to lean towards town sided setups.

[RadiantCowbells]

YOU HAD A MODKILL THAT TOOK AWAY ONE OF TOWNS 2 MISLYNCHES WHEN MULTIPLE TOWN HAD BOTH OF YOU CAUGHT, BOTH REPLACED OUT IN RESPONSE TO THAT MODKILL, AND YOU'RE CLAIMING IT HELPED YOUR CAUSE.

[RadiantCowbells]

HURT.

[Flavor Leaf]

I said the modkill helped scum, replace outs helped town. Just because I said I lost my biggest supporter in DDL doesn’t mean that that still didn’t help us

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm just gonna

not have this discussion with you

rc shoshin replace out definitely helps scum yes

[Flavor Leaf]

i'm just gonna

not have this discussion with you

rc shoshin replace out definitely helps scum yes

Yeah, we considered you guys replacing out already a win over you guys for our own sakes.

This was a double win. SS as a whole was literally the most stressful thing I’ve felt in mafia in years

[Vorkuta]

The reviewers were mastina

Not again.... Not like this..... 2nd game in a row....

Jk- it was "thought provoking" to say the least!

[Flavor Leaf]

I forgot one failure of town: The cop checking a claimed Miller/Ascetic.

I mean, to be fair, it was a fake claim.

SOMETHING SMART!!! I DID IT!!! I won a page 1 Miller fake claim and got past a guilty!!!

I'm glad you did it, but it doesn't really count for much because you were dodgy about it early on and also it was obviously bullshit

I did think you were ascetic for a while, hence the claim, but I eventually changed my mind but not the opinion that you were scum, so I kept it.

Yes, SS. Yours was better than mine! It still counts, though, haha

[Dunnstral]

I'm pretty sure I played my imaginary PR better than most people played their real one...

You naked voted me after I voted with you

[Something_Smart]

It was like 4 hours from deadline and nobody was doing anything, sorry

[Flavor Leaf]

Don’t worry, Dunn...I didn’t lynch you. I fell asleep before I could hammer.

[mastina]

-I think it was still a bit scumsided.

GEE, YOU THINK?

I do indeed.
As the reviewer who passed it, I feel ashamed.
I kinda gave up in the review to be honest.
I don't even remember passing it, to be frank.
I knew it wasn't a good setup.

[mastina]

who the fuck passed this setup

I'M SORRY; I DON'T REMEMBER DOING IT
I do remember giving up on the review tho so presumably out of apathy.

[mastina]

can i have opinions from the players on whether this setup belonged in the normal queue

My main opposition to it was pretty much exactly that, actually.

This seems like a theme game?

So I'll step in and say:

This game is technically normal; it fits the strict requirements of a normal game.

However, it will not fit the expectations, I suspect, of a good majority of players entering the normal queue.

Having a single nearly all-powerful role like a bulletproof IC that is given a free division of the player list in half goes against the expectation of a "normal game of mafia." If that person shares the information publicly then the game turns into "hunt the two scum from each subgroup" which feels distinctly like a theme mechanic because it becomes the entire focus of the game. If they don't share that information, then the game becomes essentially one person playing solitaire and directing all of the lynches while everyone else is forced to blindly follow (and in fact, this is probably the optimal way to play the role, as it prevents scum from knowing how the groups are laid out and planning nightkills around it).

^A more wordy way of what I was getting at, basically.

I realize people tend not to consider Neighbors as roles in the design world, but I'm a bit concerned that from the play perspective, the setup only has two VTs?
Yes, there's essentially-vanilla-neighbors, but they aren't actual bona fide VTs.

I'm still uncomfortable with how there's only two legitimate VTs--even the neighbors aren't just neighbors; they have a modifier which makes them stand out even more than just being a neighbor would. It still feels like a theme more than a normal with that mechanic.

(You can just see the progression in my willpower eroding and for that I do apologize; I take full responsibility for failing as a reviewer here. I have no defense. Normally when I pass a setup and players complain about it postgame, I can defend my actions--I've nothing for this game.)

[Not Known 15]

can i have opinions from the players on whether this setup belonged in the normal queue

My main opposition to it was pretty much exactly that, actually.

This seems like a theme game?

So I'll step in and say:

This game is technically normal; it fits the strict requirements of a normal game.

However, it will not fit the expectations, I suspect, of a good majority of players entering the normal queue.

Having a single nearly all-powerful role like a bulletproof IC that is given a free division of the player list in half goes against the expectation of a "normal game of mafia." If that person shares the information publicly then the game turns into "hunt the two scum from each subgroup" which feels distinctly like a theme mechanic because it becomes the entire focus of the game. If they don't share that information, then the game becomes essentially one person playing solitaire and directing all of the lynches while everyone else is forced to blindly follow (and in fact, this is probably the optimal way to play the role, as it prevents scum from knowing how the groups are laid out and planning nightkills around it).

^A more wordy way of what I was getting at, basically.

I realize people tend not to consider Neighbors as roles in the design world, but I'm a bit concerned that from the play perspective, the setup only has two VTs?
Yes, there's essentially-vanilla-neighbors, but they aren't actual bona fide VTs.

I'm still uncomfortable with how there's only two legitimate VTs--even the neighbors aren't just neighbors; they have a modifier which makes them stand out even more than just being a neighbor would. It still feels like a theme more than a normal with that mechanic.

(You can just see the progression in my willpower eroding and for that I do apologize; I take full responsibility for failing as a reviewer here. I have no defense. Normally when I pass a setup and players complain about it postgame, I can defend my actions--I've nothing for this game.)

I think, in retrospective, that there can be two lessons being learned for future reviews:
1.If the setup has to be changed greatly, just tell the person who wants to mod to provide a new setup; and close the review. (Option 1: reviewers pass right away; option 2: reviewers demand small changes; option 3:reviewers fail the review and ask the mod to come back with a better setup). This way mods aren't thinking "oh yes it looks far better than before, let's pass it" with a setup that still has some flaws(and yes, my setup was a bit too scumsided if I look back at it... in my view not extremely, but... that's bad enough).
2.Setups are reviewed for normalcry and balance. It is important, when making some small changes to the setup to fix one problem, to ensure that the other value doesn't become a problem(here it was initially balanced(I think) but more theme-y; after the changes it was not that theme-y but the balance was not good enough).

I still think that the situation involving the modkill was very unfortunate, with no option avaliable to me being good - I chose the option I thought to be least problematic. And it still is the option I percieve as the least problematic one.

[mbaki]

This post game is a very good reminder that ms balance standards are very different than elsewhere.

I am disappointed at how RC is acting here, but I guess its unsurprising.

But yes, balance aside, I will say I didn't love the setup. Also, VC styles are annoying imo, I've seen a couple other mods do them but they're just harder to read and "ugly". Just constructive feedback.

[RadiantCowbells]

Disappointed is an odd way to put it.

[RadiantCowbells]

And taking away a mislynch from town is pretty problematic in a game where they only have two to begin with.

[Ankamius]

We had only one lynch on town and it lost us the game

The only other one was on scum lol

[RadiantCowbells]

I caught 3/4 of your team D1 and your partner comes into postgame talking shit because a modkill on a confirmed town player took away two of our mislynches. Do you really think I'm the problem vector here?

[Flavor Leaf]

I think he meant you get two mislynches without losing, which made DDL and Dunn.

DDL was a rough situation. It sucked for town, but he legit did quote like the entirety of COA’s neighborhood posts, which was quite a lot.

That could have severely affected the game. I understood the move, it just sucked to have happen.

[RadiantCowbells]

And like

Literally every nrg member who has commented has agreed that this didn't belong in the normal queue at all, so...

[Flavor Leaf]

I caught 3/4 of your team D1 and your partner comes into postgame talking shit because a modkill on a confirmed town player took away two of our mislynches. Do you really think I'm the problem vector here?

Ankamius wasn’t my teammate

[RadiantCowbells]

I think he meant you get two mislynches without losing, which made DDL and Dunn.

DDL was a rough situation. It sucked for town, but he legit did quote like the entirety of COA’s neighborhood posts, which was quite a lot.

That could have severely affected the game. I understood the move, it just sucked to have happen.

Even if it had to have happen

Which I disagree with.

Doesn't mean you trash talk townies for losing a game where I caught all 3 of you D1 and we had conftown modkilled and you only even survived day 1 because you cried about out of game stuff and made me lynch your buddy instead.