Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[jasonT1981]

Im resigned to being hammered. I am off to bed and don't expect to be alive when I wake up.

Note to town - DO NOT let GrayICE lead you. He WILL lead town to losing.

[GreyICE]

Oh fuck you very much, Jason, how did you do in Ghostbusters mafia? Oh that's right, all your scum reads were town, like every one.

[GreyICE]

Fuck this shit.

Unvote

He's not going to flip scum.

Vote: Tierce

[triangle123]

When Jason did his 1v1 post, i took it more as a townish warning. In a recent dialogue with GreyICE he said, that it was done "to test just how serious your claim was" and farther commented "I was pushing you to see how truthful you were being", and looking back that changes things. It is no longer a townish warning, but anti-town pressing. If Jason really had no doubts that Grey is lying, then pushing if Grey is scum is rather silly, we don't want him to take the claim back, since 1v1 trade with scum benefits town. And pushing if Grey is town can have unpredictable results, given his playing style.

I'm not really feeling arguments like these about Jason mostly because I feel like I'm interpreting his 1v1 comment differently than other people seem to be. To me, it just looks like he was testing the veracity of Grey's claim and unless I missed something, I don't think he seriously wanted a 1v1. I do agree that he spent too much time defending himself and not enough scumhunting, but that in and of itself is not necessarily scummy, particularly since he is now starting to post and explain his reads. It seems mildly townish to me that he's going against the grain and posting scum reads on people like Tierce whom no one else is attacking.

Kortul, the arguments you wrote about Jason are very similar to what has been posted before about him. What changed your viewpoint?

Jason, where did you bread-crumb?

[T-Bone]

Took a day trip, picking up my prod. Thankfully I didn't miss much.

Glad to see Acosmist is suddenly voting me despite never voicing suspicion of me before I attacked him. To me it reads like he was trying to fly under the radar, and now that I'm not letting him he's frustrated. What was your strategy for Day 1 before all this Acomist?

I'm lost as to what this discussion between Greenknight and Starbuck boils down to. Obviously you're not going to convince each other that you're scum, so why are you trying? Going point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point isn't productive at all.

Kortul, what did you find about Jason being town in the first place? I don't quite understand why you thought he was town in the first place, and thus I don't understand the progression to him being a scumread. I'm happy to read something without fencesitting being mentioned because I don't think that was ever the issue.

If I was forced to chose between GK and Jason I'd vote Jason. I can see GK's actions from a town perspective, I have a harder time seeing Jason's earlier actions from a town perspective. Jason, when you decided to vote Zang way back in the earlier part of the day, what was your endgame for that plan? What did you expect would happen?

What does AFAICT mean Icey?

[kortul]

AFAICT Kortul equivocated on Jason until GreyICE grouched about it, whereupon Kortul stopped equivocating and called Jason scum.

This may be scummy regardless of Jason's alignment (i.e., because he may have been avoiding association with a mislynch or connections to a scumfriend -- relevant because this is different from Starbuck's case, where there was indifference rather than ambivalence toward Jason until someone grouched), but I don't get enough of a bad feeling about Kortul to justify moving from Jason.

If AFAICT is "as far as i can tell", then just read my response to Grey on Friday. What i don't like is that second sentence paints my supposed equivocation only as scummy. Present your thoughts about someone as a fact and paint that "fact" with scummy intentions - and lo and behold, we have a scum.

Let's see another example of such logic. Iecrint initially voted Jason because "he looks bad". No new reasons were introduced later - he still looks bad and we should lynch him. This may be scummy regardless of Jason's alignment (i.e. he may be bussing his scummate for towncred, or pushing a mislynch without telling reasons on why Jason is scum).

Hmm, now that i posted it, i realized that i don't know what exactly about Jason do you find scummy?

[kortul]

He's not going to flip scum.

Grey, he isn't going to flip at all, at least not now. When Jason did a claim he was at L-2, and nobody posted an intention to hammer.

Jason, did you actually reread anything before posting your reads? Green and Korlash weren't really fightning, Tierce referred to what Grey called "townie coalition of goodness", you call Iec, who is pushing you with no case, as leaning town, and so on. You are at

L-3

now, and if you

are

town, then you have all the time in a world for actual scumhunting.

[kortul]

Ok, now to the questions of triangle and T-Bone (they are more or less about the same). I feel that my ISO would answer them, but i can save time just elaborating on the matter.

When Jason posted his first post with content, that drew so much attention, i saw no fencesitting (and still don't feel there is any there), just a poor analysis. 1 vs 1 caught my attention, and until reread (ISO) i considered it as a town tell, more like a reminder to Grey that if he is town and false claiming Zang as scum just for the sake of it (because of the history/etc), he will go down next if his guess is wrong. So i had one town tell on Jason, attacks based on fencesitting, and his continued defense. His attack back on Grey was natural, given their playstyles, it wasn't (and isn't) a scum tell for me. I did't like so much defending and said that once or twice, but pushing Jason on this was rather silly, since that will just add another layer to his defense, and i wanted to see his scumhunting, not more defense.

After the ISOs i realized that i don't view 1vs1 as a towntell anymore, since Jason said that he was pushing/pressing Grey there, and that changes things (i explained it in post 330 already, not going to repeat). I also missed the deflection of Grey point, and i don't see why there was a need for this. So small points accumulated in a scum read, and there were no towntells anymore to balance that, and still no scumhunting (with a week left before the end of the day).

[kortul]

I had time left only for

greenknight

ISO, and my read on him is neutral, slightly leaning town. I still don't agree with what he finds scummy and what isn't scummy, but in the realm of his logic he is consistent, and for me it is slight town tell. I think that he has a dose of egocentricity, but still has a healthy mix of defense, attacking, asking questions and commenting, and didn't try to add another voice to the Jason wagon just for the sake of it. Would like to hear the rest of his reads to compare with mine (once i will finish them), to see how far our logic and view of the game are.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.10 - As of post 359

Tierce (1) - GreyICE
Greenknight (2) - triangle123, Starbuck
jasonT1981 (4) - Tierce, Iecerint, CryMeARiver, kortul
Acosmist (1) - T-Bone
Starbuck (1) - Greenknight
T-Bone (2) - Korlash, Acosmist

Not Voting (2) - jasonT1981, Zang

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes -

Korlash will be V/LA from July 7 to July 15.
CryMeARiver will be V/LA from July 8 to July 14.

[Iecerint]

As far as I can tell.

[jasonT1981]

Oh fuck you very much, Jason, how did you do in Ghostbusters mafia? Oh that's right, all your scum reads were town, like every one.

wrong, DeltaWave was scum. I was pushing that since D1 of the game

A few have talked about my 1vs1 challange to Gray as to what it was... I was serious. I have seen Gray fake claim a few times day 1 I believe (GB Mafia being the latest with Miller lcaim I believe) and wanted to see how far he woyuld take it. Would he be prepered to keep it up when challanged or let it fade when challanged proving he was talking shite. I believed the latter.. and was correct.

Yes, my vote on Zang was RV, probably stayed on longer than it should and it doesnt look good for me in that respect. It was honestly a RV in spite of Grays claim the vote would have gone on Zang regardless as I thought it sounded like a cool Dr Who villian name.

Jason: why would you talk about my fight with Korlash (which was relatively small disagreement and we both read each other as town), and not Starbuck (we both reach each other as scum)?

Good question, I have no real reason. I see both of you as town and left it at that.

[jasonT1981]

Gray ice - Full scum to town reads, please!

[Iecerint]

Let's see another example of such logic. Iecrint initially voted Jason because "he looks bad". No new reasons were introduced later - he still looks bad and we should lynch him. This may be scummy regardless of Jason's alignment (i.e. he may be bussing his scummate for towncred, or pushing a mislynch without telling reasons on why Jason is scum).

The point of my verbiage is to establish a contrast between your treatment of Jason and Starbuck's treatment of Jason. Starbuck's is such that lynching her on those grounds without a Jason flip does not make logical sense. Yours is such that lynching you before Jason may make sense depending upon other factors (e.g., subjective scuminess of Jason v Kortul).

Hmm, now that i posted it, i realized that i don't know what exactly about Jason do you find scummy?

The big thing was pushing a 1/1 on Zang/GreyICE, which is a scummy thing to do if scum knows that both players are town (and I had assumed that they were both town because I took ICE's unclaim at face value). I know that you noticed this because you pointed it out as a pro-town thing that Jason did prior to GreyICE unclaiming.

IIRC, Jason claimed that he did it because he knew that ICE was lying and wanted him to unclaim (because he gambits like this a lot?), but that seems like an unnatural goal for a town player to have IMPO, severe personal animosity perhaps notwithstanding.

[GreyICE]

wrong, DeltaWave was scum. I was pushing that since D1 of the game

A few have talked about my 1vs1 challange to Gray as to what it was... I was serious. I have seen Gray fake claim a few times day 1 I believe (GB Mafia being the latest with Miller lcaim I believe) and wanted to see how far he woyuld take it. Would he be prepered to keep it up when challanged or let it fade when challanged proving he was talking shite. I believed the latter.. and was correct.

Yes, my vote on Zang was RV, probably stayed on longer than it should and it doesnt look good for me in that respect. It was honestly a RV in spite of Grays claim the vote would have gone on Zang regardless as I thought it sounded like a cool Dr Who villian name.

That wasn't a fakeclaim you fucking idiot.

[GreyICE]

Gray ice - Full scum to town reads, please!

Vote: JasonT1981

No

[jasonT1981]

wrong, DeltaWave was scum. I was pushing that since D1 of the game

A few have talked about my 1vs1 challange to Gray as to what it was... I was serious. I have seen Gray fake claim a few times day 1 I believe (GB Mafia being the latest with Miller lcaim I believe) and wanted to see how far he woyuld take it. Would he be prepered to keep it up when challanged or let it fade when challanged proving he was talking shite. I believed the latter.. and was correct.

Yes, my vote on Zang was RV, probably stayed on longer than it should and it doesnt look good for me in that respect. It was honestly a RV in spite of Grays claim the vote would have gone on Zang regardless as I thought it sounded like a cool Dr Who villian name.

That wasn't a fakeclaim you fucking idiot.

Claimed Miller
Flipped VT.

You fucking idiot.

[GreyICE]

Go read what I wrote in that game.

I said that I was a ghost, and if anyone had a role that investigated ghosts I would investigate as a ghost.

I WAS A MOTHERFUCKING GHOST

[greenknight]

Grey: If Tierce is scum, why are you on the wagon she's been pushing all day?

Tierce: Initially you agreed with triangle's case against me and called her town for it. A couple of posts in ISO later you dismiss me as town based on meta. Why?

Jason: I actually like that you didn't try to make up some sort of reason there. What about starbuck then, what in particular about her posting do you find pro-town?

I'm lost as to what this discussion between Greenknight and Starbuck boils down to. Obviously you're not going to convince each other that you're scum, so why are you trying? Going point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point for point isn't productive at all.

My main point against Starbuck is that she's scum because she is accusing me of being scum on the basis of behavioural tells that she's committing herself. The points she raises against me also continue to get worse and worse, with "fencesitting" and "tunnelling" being the latest examples of this. I am not trying to convince her that she is scum (she knows that already,) but to expose her scummy reasoning to everyone else.


re. T-bone vs acos

- T-bone calling acos out for sitting on his RVS vote when it turned into a wagon without explanation is valid. As I mentioned earlier, acos' sniping in the early game doesn't look like much of an effort to scumhunt.
- I don't see T-bone's meta argument as valid. T-bone's strategy in his previous game was based on one of the wagons being on scum, but we have no flips here.
- Acos post #284 is bad. All the interspersed insults do is make people skim over the post. As far as I can tell the main argument here is that T-bone is bussing Jason and trying to finger Acos as the scumpartner. If so, why not vote Jason whom he has a lot more material against?
- T-bone #302 - but Acos did just explain the main reads you asked for (286).
- Acos #326 - No, complaining about insults isn't scummy.

Not really convinced by either side of the argument, and both of them lose a few town points for this. Read on T-bone is still overall leaning town because I know I'm town and I don't see scum doing a quick vote-unvote on me as a likely towncred building move. Still don't like the fact that Acos didn't engage in the discussion surrounding his main suspects earlier in the day.

[Acosmist]

- Acos #326 - No, complaining about insults isn't scummy.

I said it was...where?

[jasonT1981]

Go read what I wrote in that game.

I said that I was a ghost, and if anyone had a role that investigated ghosts I would investigate as a ghost.

I WAS A MOTHERFUCKING GHOST

no Gray... you claimed Miller, remember?

Oddly we had the power roles for 10-2-1

- tracker (mediocre investigative)
- PGO (kills 2 townies, 2 scum)
-

miller

- 50% sensor affected by miller


So 10:2:1 with only real town power being a tracker isnt very town sided.

[jasonT1981]

IIRC, Jason claimed that he did it because he knew that ICE was lying and wanted him to unclaim (because he gambits like this a lot?), but that seems like an unnatural goal for a town player to have IMPO, severe personal animosity perhaps notwithstanding.

From what I am lead to believe. GrayICE pulls shit like this a lot.

[GreyICE]

Hi, I'm Slimer, the friendly ghost who drives the bus around.

I'll investigate as a ghost.

Benmage claimed a sensor that could tell how many ghosts were on the wagon. Which made me a miller.

If you want to throw in that the moderator decided that slimer the friendly ghost wouldn't investigate as a ghost to the sensor who could tell how many ghosts were on the wagon (after the fact) then, well... yeah.

[jasonT1981]

What about starbuck then, what in particular about her posting do you find pro-town?

Sorry, thought I quoted this.

OK, going by DC Universe pre-crash I remember Starbuck to be rather flakey as scum, non committal and in the background not getting into it with anyone and stay low where as here she has had a few confrontations and has not really been staying low.

[GreyICE]

Grey: If Tierce is scum, why are you on the wagon she's been pushing all day?

Jason needs to fucking die.