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Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:13 pm
by Cheery Dog
Disturbed_One wrote:These arguments between Nacho and Bacde read very much so like town vs. town to me. Shamrock is almost 100% confirmed scum, I can't really see Nacho as scum if Shamrock is scum.

Can you see Nacho as scum if Shamrock is town?
I take from this post that it also means that you can still see Bacde and Shamrock being partners, so is the Nacho/Bacde fight more likely town on town or one of them scum?

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:17 pm
by ICEninja
Wouldn't it be crazy if the scum team was Nacho, Bacde, Shamrock? Nacho throws both buddies under the bus day 1 for town cred, realizes he's going to get both of them lynched and backtracks on his Bacde scum read because he knows town Nacho wouldn't survive the nights for long, and would be caught.

I don't think this is the case, but something is making me way more paranoid than I usually am.

This just feels too easy.

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:05 pm
by Disturbed_One
Cheery Dog wrote:
Can you see Nacho as scum if Shamrock is town?
I take from this post that it also means that you can still see Bacde and Shamrock being partners, so is the Nacho/Bacde fight more likely town on town or one of them scum?


Yes, I can see that. But I feel there's almost no chance Shamrock is town at this point.

I actually see Bacde as town. I agree with the logic that scum can't claim bodyguard. It's town on town unless Shamrock is town, which would make Nacho likely scum.

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:03 pm
by Cheery Dog
ICEninja wrote:Wouldn't it be crazy if the scum team was Nacho, Bacde, Shamrock? Nacho throws both buddies under the bus day 1 for town cred, realizes he's going to get both of them lynched and backtracks on his Bacde scum read because he knows town Nacho wouldn't survive the nights for long, and would be caught.

I don't think this is the case, but something is making me way more paranoid than I usually am.

This just feels too easy.

I think you're thinking too hard. They won't both be his buddies if Nacho is somehow scum. A double Hardbus without any other major attacks on town during day 1 from any scum just doesn't flow.

Disturbed_One wrote:
Yes, I can see that. But I feel there's almost no chance Shamrock is town at this point.

What makes you that confident in his scumminess?

While I do agree that shamrock is behaving scummy with the lurking and stuff, since I'm yet to actually interact with him, I'm not at all confident myself. Which is why I won't be hammering at least until he visits again.

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:49 pm
by ICEninja
Cheery have you interacted with anyone? Your interactions have been minimal at best, you've done almost no scum hunting, and your analysis essentially consists of some seriously weak points that don't actually point to alignment.

You seem to be fully caught up yet all I know about you is that you have some scum read on Shamrock yet won't hammer him because you've "not interacted with him" and some silly points on absta that could be a gut read but don't seem to say anything about alignment. Bullshit. You can read Shamrock's posts, notice how much more he's posted in other threads before this silly site-wide flake he started (my last game was with him and he was plenty active, I'll back up the "pretend" doc claims against him because I was actually in the game too) and he's posted almost nothing here.

You're pretending to play this game and are refusing to take any possibly controversial stances. You attacked a player who was hardly discussed, and said NOTHING about the popular wagons.

If Shamrock wasn't so scummy, you can bet your ass you'd find my vote on you. And you can have fun with it tomorrow.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:07 am
by absta101
Intent to hammer within a hours.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:08 am
by absta101
I agree that cheery looks bad as well.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:08 am
by absta101
fe*

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:09 am
by absta101
few* (FFS!)

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:18 am
by Cheery Dog
@ICEninja My analysis didn't even mention names, of course my weak points aren't going to point to alignments.

By not interacting with him, I mean that I haven't even had the chance to interact with him, if it was someone else on L-1, I'd be able to actually interact and identify how scummy they are myself. Since Shamrock hasn't posted at all since I joined the game, I can't do anything about him, while I have read his posts and can agree with others opinions, I'd still like to be able to confirm it more myself.
While I have gone and skimmed this game in question, I also decided to check a recent game where he was scum, this lack of activity wasn't there during Mini 1365, so while it this is high levels of lurk here, I'm not entirely sure how it relates to his alignment. Disturbed_One's almost 100% confirmed of Shamrock being scum is actually putting me off the lynch.

My stance on absta is controversial, would you rather I just commented on the popular wagons and just ignored everyone else?
But if you do need that information, from the popular wagons at the time I replaced in (which was the only time there has been multiple popular wagons while I'm been in the game), you are town, Bacde is leaning town and Disturbed is leaning slightly less town due to being a constant wagon throughout the game.

and why would your vote be on me when you've pretty much just called me null?

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:26 am
by Disturbed_One
@ Cheery:

It's obvious that he's scum and the fact you're even questioning it makes me doubt that you're town. He's been a complete lurksack the whole game and it's been proven he is neglecting this game. He has recent town meta and he plays completely opposite to this.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:46 am
by absta101
Sorry for prolonging this.

VOTE: Shamrock

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:12 am
by iamausername
i see absta has got the jump on me and hammered Shamrock, hopefully i can get this out before the thread is locked. if i'm killed tonight, somebody better pick up where i left off because Mirhawk has definitely lied about something somehwere.

Mirhawk wrote:
I must admit however, I am colored on this because as I read the exchange Nacho ripped everything you said apart.

Mirhawk wrote:
When I said Nacho was ripping your posts to shreds I meant his later ones, after you started arguing with him. Nacho's original case on you was quite bad, and in fact until you started responding to Nacho's claims I had a town read on you.


this is not consistent with Mirhawk's claim that he changed his mind in between making these two posts. if that was the case, he is lying in post 189 about what he meant when he made post 185.

i expect he'll just try to claim that he's misremembered, and actually he changed his mind before post 185, but frankly that doesn't seem consistent with the wording of post 185 either, and the way it picks up where 183 left off without any indication that anything had changed between them.

i mean all of this was obvious before i tried to get him to nail down exactly where he changed his mind, but the fact that he has really struggled to do so is not making it any easier to buy what he is selling here.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:39 am
by Mirhawk
I frankly don't see how I lied at any point in that line of reasoning. Nor does me saying I changed my mind after 185 change anything. If you bothered reading what I'm actually saying in 189 you would realize that post 185 has nothing to do with Nacho's original case at all. Rather it was talking about the conversation between Nacho and bacde after Nacho's original post.

How about instead of vaguely implying that I might have lied about something at some point in that exchange you point out exactly what it is that I lied about.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:12 am
by Alduskkel
Final Vote Count (#14)

Shamrock (7) - Bacde, ICEninja, Mirhawk, Disturbed_One, Nachomamma8, Jabberwock, absta101

Disturbed_One (3) - jmo16mla, Shamrock, Melmond
ICEninja (1) - Dunhamganger
Mirhawk (1) - iamausername
absta101 (1) - Cheery Dog

Not Voting (0)

Deadline is in: (expired on 2012-12-15 00:00:00)

13 alive, 7 to lynch.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:21 am
by Alduskkel
Flavor goes here if I ever feel like it.

Shamrock,
Mafia Goon
, was lynched Day 1.

Leftover time from Day 1 was 7 days (at the time of the hammer), which will be added to Day 2's deadline.

Night 1 begins now. No current deadline is set because I need to find a replacement for Dunhamganger. Hopefully that can be accomplished quickly.

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:37 am
by Alduskkel
Rob13 replaces Dunhamganger.

Night 1 deadline is set for December 11th, 1:35 PST. Please send any and all night actions to me by then.

Countdown Clock: (expired on 2012-12-11 14:35:00)

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:21 pm
by Alduskkel
Disturbed_One,
Vanilla Townie
, was killed Night 1.

Day 2 dawns with 11 alive. It is 6 to lynch. The deadline is set for 3 weeks from now, on January 1st, 2013, at 3:30 P.M. PST.

Countdown Clock: (expired on 2013-01-01 16:30:00)

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:40 pm
by Jabberwock
Other head here reporting for duty. Just saw we lived through the night which fucking owns, but Disturbed's a really weird kill. Yeah, the guy was pretty obviously town via his own play + interactions with flipped scum but I expected either Bacde or us to be dead here.

Vote: Melmond


Mostly as a placeholder but I remember not liking his replace-in content at all - the sheer amount of null/scumreads in #301 is very jarring. #334 in particular is awkward and a really weak reason to pull back from his Nacho town-read.

I'm thinking Cheery Dog is town. Him getting cold feet over the Shamrock wagon in #359 due to not being able to interact with him + Disturbed's confidence is genuine and very understandable. Still not lynching Bacde - him claiming BG and then starting up a counterwagon on his goon buddy is suicidal and non-sensical from a scum PoV.

Going to take a look at the players on the Shamrock wagon a little more closely. As much as I hope that everyone on it is town, given Shamrock being really obvious, it's very probable at least one scum bussed.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:43 pm
by Rob14
Replacing for Dunhamganger and starting my read-through. Will be doing stream-of-concious style catch-up post. This will be super long. Read if you want. Conclusions will be in a second post right after this one. Note that if you plan to read all of this, then pull up the game in a separate tab so you can reference posts. I couldn't easily quote anything because it was night when I made this.


Post #13 - JMO acts a bit odd to early pressure. He tries to explain away a vote that looked random. He's newish to the site, so I'm not sure that this is indicative of alignment. Worth bearing in mind.

Oh god, iamausername's vote was perfectly fine. Silly wagon if I ever saw one. It's really not a big deal. It was a bad joke. I make them all the time. I guess I won't last long here...

Post #20 - Highly suspect. McStab should explain his vote if it's serious. Also, he definitely shouldn't be both making a serious vote and encouraging people to continue pursuing JMO. He should be taking a position on where pressure should be going early.

Post #25 - This feels like scum getting pissed off that they're being wagoned for a bad reason. Odd reaction to pressure again. JMO definitely should be looked at.

Post #31 - Okay, now JMO IS a little OMGUS-y

Post #34 - Yeah, JMO is scum.

Post #39 - "My second highest scum-read is iceninja, but I think iam is scummy for thinking that iceninja deserves votes because he's my highest scum-read." Disconnect here. Seems like Bacde is trying to turn everything that iam says into a scum-tell.

ICEninja's reaction was fine. It doesn't matter that McStab voted him. The fact remains that McStab gave a serious vote and refused to give the reason for it. That's scummy, or as ICEninja put it, "not good."

Post #43 - JMO is SCUMMMMMMMMMMY

Post #45 - Mirhawk gains town-points for this new analysis.

Post #52 - And the scum gives himself away. JMO says the following:

1.I'm not sure what would have happened if I wasn't drunk. But I probably would have made sure I wasn't voting the guy that was already voting for me.

-snip-

3. I didn't lie about it. Being drunk doesn't make it look worse. Like I said, I voted randomly. If I hadn't been drunk I would have made sure that I wouldn't have voted disturbed one because he was already voting me and I know people regard that as a scum tell/newb move. Simple.


If you're town, why would you care so much to carefully avoid giving off scum tells? Scum, in general, are far more aware of being sure not to give off scum-tells than town. I find this super-scummy.

Post #53 - Absta is super town.

Post #60 - Mirhawk is also town.

Post #61 - Odd post. A very vague defense of JMO. Somewhat suspicious of Bacde. Worth looking at later.

Post #65 - This is notably the first time JMO posted about something other than the votes on him, IIRC. That isn't something that town would do. Town would have started scumhunting before the third page if they were posting as frequently as JMO.

Post #68 - "Good question." Combined with post #61, I have some strong suspicions about Bacde and JMO. Their interaction is odd. Call it a gut-read, but I think a Bacda-JMO scum team is very, very possible.

Post #72 - Disturbed = town. His reasoning regarding Ice = not correct.

Post #74 - Absta is town for sure. So painfully obv-town.

Post #78 - Why hasn't this guy (JMO) been lynched yet?

Post #81 - You're breaking my heart, disturbed. Don't switch off scum.

Post #84 - The first line of this post made me lol. Also, Mirhawk is my strongest town read by far.

Post #87 - Not liking ICE's reference of the post where he "obviously" forgot to change his vote. We don't know that. We don't know you accidently didn't change your vote. What we do know is that you didn't vote any of the wagons in the first post and then voted later with the claim that you "forgot." In my experience, people don't forget things nearly as often as they claim to in Mafia, and I'm automatically skeptical of that claim. Much more so now that you're bringing it up as an obvious thing that town should take for granted.

Post #98 - Enter Shamrock. Okay, I cheated. I looked ahead and saw he flipped scum. So, here's the stage when he enters the game. Disturbed has made a good case against JMO. JMO reacted badly (and I mean, BADLY) to pressure from Disturbed and others. Bacde had odd interactions with JMO and has since attacked Disturbed. Shamrock, who we now know is scum, joins the game and hops onto Disturbed while defending ICE. Now, I'd like to assume that Shamrock, who is somewhat experienced, would not defend his partner directly in his first post. But might he defend his partner indirectly by defending ICE, who was being attacked by Disturbed, who was attacking JMO (if that made sense)? I think so. In other words, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." If Disturbed is attacking JMO and ICE, Shamrock would totally be willing to defend ICE in order to discredit Disturbed (and maybe even secure a lynch). I think a scum-team of {Shamrock, JMO, Bacde} is very possible.

Post #103 - Hate this post.

Post #104 - Dislike this OMGUS even more. Post #103 didn't warrant a vote.

Post #105 - Username is town.

Post #106 - Woah, woah, woah. This raises giant red flags for me.

Post #113 - For the record, saying that you should vote someone for pressure greatly reduces the effects of pressure.

Post #114/Post #115 - The old 1-2 tag team by scum central. Gotta love how JMO chimes in parroting Bacde as soon as Bacde posts. JMO had posted in other places on-site between his last post and this post. There were plenty of things for him to post about in this game. He waited for his scum-partner's cue to post. This is not a coincidence. Look at the Bacde/JMO interactions in this game. They are joined at the hip.

Post #139 - Great catchup post. Nacho is likely town.

Post #157 - Ice sounds town to me. I know a lot of pressure has gone to him, but his posts have a lot of good scum-hunting in them.

Post #160 - Oh god, Bacde. Burn it. Burn it with fire.

Post #167 - See above.

Post #177 - HOW DID BACDE SURVIVE DAY ONE?!?!?!?

Post #178 - In the interest of being fair, I actually agree with this point. I too use rhetorical questions rather liberally.

Post #184 - This is the point in my re-read that I'm no longer going to comment on Bacde unless I notice something that everyone else seemed to miss. Otherwise, my analysis is going to be cluttered by me getting increasingly agitated that he's still alive. Needless to say, I think he's far and away the best lynch in Day 2.

Post #187 - Okay, I'm already ignoring what I said earlier, because this might actually be useful. Notice how Bacde votes Shamrock. Some may say he's unlikely to be scum because he drew attention to his partner. This is total hindsight. In reality, his vote didn't put any real pressure on Shamrock. With it did do was twofold. First, it served to allow Bacde to put his vote in a position that is totally non-controversial. I mean, no one would argue with him for wanting lurkers to speak up, especially in this game. This could lessen pressure on him or at least prevent an increase in pressure, and he was certainly under fire. Second, it served as a subtle indicator to Shamrock that he needed to get his ass in the game, which was definitely true at this point. No real pressure was put on Shamrock by this vote. This vote does not make Bacde look like town.

Post #188 - And by the way, this post proves my point. Ice suddenly becomes conflicted because he doesn't want to disprove of lurker hunting. This is literally Bacde's plan in action.

Post #191 - Sends up a red flag on Jabberwock. This is entirely a gut read.

Post #195 - I concur, and this is essentially where I got my gut read. The fact that he hit on two scum in his first post with no stated reasoning is just ... off.

Post #200 - Nevermind, Jabberwock is probably town. Gut-read overruled.

Post #203 - Why are you so stuck on McStab, Ice? It sounds so forced.

Post #207 - @Nacho, where did your read on Bacde go?

Post #215 - This is full of lulz and definitely makes Bacde the second scum.

Post #222 - There's a gay joke in here, somewhere. Feel free to pick it up, anyone.

For the record, Bodygaurd is a great fakeclaim for scum. Common enough to be a believable fake-claim, rare enough to have a much lower probability of a CC as compared to other popular power roles, and just weak enough to be able to explain away the fact that you aren't dead by Day 2 after claiming it.

Post #252 - This stands out as scummy. JMO contributed nothing this game day. Seriously. And he's still preoccupied with the reasons he was being voted. I get it, he's bitter. This is a classic case of "caught for the wrong reasons."

Post #261 - This needs to be substantiated, Nacho.

Post #281 - I lol'd at the discussion of dominance.

Post #285 - JMO pulling out dat WIFOM.

Post #286 - Bacde is, again, joined at the hip with JMO. No. JMO's post was bad. It was all WIFOM. Why do you need to qualify it with "Good post, but..."? You're like best friends.

Post #301 - Melmond's post is null.

Post #312 - This looks like it comes from town (from username).

Post #324 - Ice's post made me lol. Also, town.

Post #325 - A proper defense against "your analysis is crap" is definitely not "but I didn't provide any!" Use this space to do something Cheery, and maybe you'll look more like town.

Post #336 - Not liking this post by Mirhawk. Sounds too annoyed. Could just be town emotion, or could be "caught me for the wrong reason."

Post #344 - The first bit is Bacde essentially screaming "Look! Someone's taking me seriously and thinks I'm town! I AM scumhunting! Give me all of them town-points!" Also, this "case" made me want to throw my computer out of a window. If you are town (highly unlikely), then you're tunnelling on Nacho because you know that a switch at this point would give you away. If Nacho dies during the night, I strongly suspect Bacde because he's backed himself into a corner with his overly aggressive Nacho attack.

Post #352 - Woah. Where did the backtrack on your position on the Bodygaurd claim come from, Disturbed?

Post #353 - Cheery is making me paranoid. He's supporting the Shamrock wagon but refusing to hammer on it. Reads to me like scum trying to get town-cred without actually killing their partner.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:43 pm
by Rob14
Conclusion Post:


Here is my list of reads.

Town:

Jabberwock
Mirhawk
ICEninja
Nacho
Absta

Lean Town:

Username

Null:

Melmond

Lean Scum:

Cheery
JMO

Scum:

Bacde

Bacde is the clear lynch today in my opinion, for reasons stated in my catch-up post. Assuming he flips scum, JMO is next in line as a scum read because of Bacde's weird interactions with him, his bad responses to pressure, and his complete lack of any real scum-hunting. Cheery is a third option because of his unwillingness to commit to a hammer on Shamrock - I would look towards him if Bacde (by some miracle) flips town.

In conclusion,

Vote: Bacde

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:22 pm
by Bacde
I want to hear from Nacho before I out my fosses. I'm surprised that I'm alive right now tbh.

I was on jabberwock.

@Rob13 your reads are pretty bad, especially your read on jmo. He is obviously town. Not being good =/= scum. I can't blame you for fossing me because everyone already has this game.

Rob14 wrote:
Post #344 - The first bit is Bacde essentially screaming "Look! Someone's taking me seriously and thinks I'm town! I AM scumhunting! Give me all of them town-points!" Also, this "case" made me want to throw my computer out of a window. If you are
town
(highly unlikely), then you're tunnelling on Nacho because you know that a switch at this point would give you away. If Nacho dies during the night, I strongly suspect Bacde because he's backed himself into a corner with his overly aggressive Nacho attack.


That's a weird thing to say. Why would I care about "giving myself away"? I think you meant scum here. What about my previous case made you want to "throw your computer out of a window"? I appreciate your rhetoric but don't see your logic.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:27 pm
by Mirhawk
Anyways I still want to know where I lied iam.

Also, Sham was so scummy there is practically no chance there were no scum bussing him. Probably not bacde or Jabs tho.

ebwop @rob
FUUUUUUCCKKK that's a ton of bullshit to read.

Only thing I really take from this is that I would like you to outline your case on bacde. Most of the points you bring up with regards to bacde are simply stating he is scum but not why.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:33 pm
by Cheery Dog
Rob14 wrote:
Post #53 - Absta is super town.

I'm not seeing this from that post, it still is just a weird post to me (and in my reasoning for voting absta yesterday), what makes absta super town?

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:45 pm
by ICEninja
Um...alright well I made a post but I guess the mafiascum gods denied it.

Anyway the conclusion was let's lynch Bacde.

Vote Bacde
.