Mewbie 1442 the second -- Game over

[goodmorning]

And I find VCA to be problematic for a whole mess of other reasons, but that's more a discussion for postgame.

, do you also find power roles problematic? Because in that case we can just just use a random generator for lynches and see if we win the game. Jokes aside, every strategy in mafia uses incomplete information, so it's always going to be fallible, this does not mean you can't use it and most of the time if it's a reasonable strategy it will help you.

I do actually find PRs troublesome, but that's just personal preference. Like I say, though, more a discussion for postgame.

And how is that working out for you so far?

It's too early to say, at the very least it provides a lot of information. For instance, after having read your answers and some of your mafia defences I can say you are either upping your game here and fooling me our my accusations are wrong, still thinking about it. Look at it from my POV:

- Day 1 you only gave away reads when prodded, in answer to someone prodding you, or discussed theory points with us, which I guess is your way of being a dutiful IC so a nul.
- You have also been very wishy washy in your posts, you keep on saying stuff like, on the one hand x, but on the other hand y, which is very annyoing for townies because we don't know what you mean so you create confusion and very handy as a mafia player cause you can always reference one of the parts if you get under some heat.
- You said you weren't playing your best game, something often done to cover slip ups.
- You joined both bandwagons
- The only votes you started where on things other people thought poor, BW's immuno joke and my mistake about DC's role in the first setup.

Doesn't this look scummy to you?

You certainly have a point.
-I suppose I have been a bit distracted recently. I could say this was strategic of me, but it wasn't.
-I do that a lot. Sometimes I have reads I'm not sure of, and to put down exactly what I think and why can help me sort it or jog something in someone else who can.
-In all honesty, I haven't played a game I'd call "good" since AMURIKA (until my recent Donner Party, but that was largely in part to a good team).
-So I did.
-argumentum ad populum

I was watching. Some people are the type who crack under pressure, but others are the type who relax too far when there's no pressure at all.

It's a possible strategy, so did you get something from his day 1 after letting him relax? If the only thing you are going with is the immuno vote you'll have to agree it's a pretty weak read, at least from a logical point of view.

Not a lot.
Logic isn't the only way to scumhunt.

But she flipped green, so I'm looking again at the reasons the jmo wagon failed.

See that's in part my problem. You were the one who stopped it dead in it's tracks, if you had kept your vote on him then I would have argued with BW that even if he liked JM's defence JM made much more sense from a strategic point of view, his reaction then would have been telling. Let's also not forget we could all be townies going at each other, a possibility which you seem to be ignoring.

I'm not denying I'm one of the reasons.
I don't know who "all" is, but I know what my reads are and I don't tend to think of all situations in hypotheticals.

GM: I want to hear more from GM on why he has such high suspicions of me.

In time.

I find it rather stupid to not vote your top scum read... You should really think about what you just said.

Now, if I had to guess, scum team would be GM and maybe arc/brian.

VOTE: brian

Anybody see a problem with these two posts?

I guess I have to take over as IC since nacho is dead and any other SE isnt helping.

I'm offended.

That said, it's definitely a bad idea to lynch anyone til AA9 posts stuff.

I'm not the mod, I'm telling you, and anyone else in this game that if I'm lynched without declaring intent hammer, and giving me a chance, then they need to be auto lynched tomorrow. No if ands or butts.

This is stupid. Some players are like that. See Guyett's famous drunkhammers (as Town).

In fact, most policy lynches are stupid, and tend to get more so the further into the game it gets.

That said, I would definitely give the side-eye to someone who hammered here without intent.

[Malakittens]

2.03

With 7 alive it's 4 votes to lynch.

Voting for:

*CrisP -
*Yiu113 -
*goodmorning -
*Brian Skies - jmo16mla [1]
*jmo16mla - Goodmorning, Buckwild [2] [L-2]
*ArcAngel9 - CrisP [1]
*Buckwild -
*Nachomamma8 -

Not voting: ArcAngel9, Brian Skies, Yiu113 [3]

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-11-28 21:56:00)

[CrisP]

Anybody see a problem with these two posts?

Yes, he should have voted you and not Brian.

But I've had more posts to judge him compared to RM so stuff that I would normally cringe and point at is not important anymore.

That said, it's definitely a bad idea to lynch anyone til AA9 posts stuff.

Well definitely is putting it a bit strongly, but I agree in principle, let's not forget Brian also hasn't talked today.

[jmo16mla]

I never numbered my scum reads. Brian hang posted any content. Meanwhile, buck votes me, then disappears.

His vote was tater pathetic. I'm trying to get shit done with mine.

[jmo16mla]

Chrisp, still not seeing where I fake claimed.

[CrisP]

You said something about mafia having to ask you to claim before they lynched you:

To hammer, scum would have to ask me to claim

So I took it you were hinting at a PR role, but you prabably were just typing from your phone again.

[jmo16mla]

Still acting like a cunt I see.

[CrisP]

I mean, yes you are, but there is no need to admit it, I'm an understanding person. I'm pretty sure you are town now, try not to get yourself mod killed.

[Yiu113]

Sounds reasonable, BW what do you get from the way he answered?

Yui to get you to talk a bit I'd like to ask you some questions, if you don't mind.

- Why do you think your slot cleared JMO day 1?

- What do you think about JM's, BW's and my recent interaction and the conclusions I draw from it?

- Why do you think mafia isn't (quick) hammering JM?

- Did you like GM's arguments when I FOS'ed her? Why did you or didn't you?

- What's your stance on VCA (vote count analysis) and talking about NK's?

Thanks for the reply!

-It didn't really look like GiF had cleared JMO day one. In fact, to me it looked like he didn't like him, to quote,

1. jmo wagon is bad and y'all should feel bad.

-It certainly generated a lot of discussion, that's for sure. It showed how JMO reacts under pressure. As for the conclusions you drew about it, about how it could be a good chance that they're both town, I'm not certain how they react under pressure and if that's normal or anything, but due to you saying that it's something they often act like when they are town, I'll go with that. Nothing else to base what I know of them off of.

-I see one of two reasons they wouldn't. 1: They're already voting him, which would make it impossible for them to quickhammer. 2: They're worried that they would be lynched tomorrow if they tried. I'm not certain which is more likely, however.

-I'm not really for or against them. While I realize this is riding the fence and may look scummy that I'm not picking a side and looks like I'm deliberately trying to avoid buddying either player, I agree with a few points and a few points I do not agree with. For example, the point about how we shouldn't keep the NK's at the forefront of everyone's reasoning I agree with. While the NK is a very important action in the game, votes and general discussion are what usually cause people to get lynched, and lynches are the town's major weapon. However, the point about how WIFOM is dismissible, I do not agree with. You can't simply say "Oh that's WIFOM I'm not going to respond to it."

-Both are fine, they help generate discussion which leads to lynches, hopefully on scum players(Or lynches on town players for scum.). If you completely dismiss them, you lose a lot of discussion.

[CrisP]

-It didn't really look like GiF had cleared JMO day one. In fact, to me it looked like he didn't like him, to quote,

1. jmo wagon is bad and y'all should feel bad.

Maybe the lingo he is using is unclear, GIF is saying he thinks the bandwagon on JMO is bad, in other words he thinks JMO is town.

I'm not certain how they react under pressure and if that's normal or anything, but due to you saying that it's something they often act like when they are town, I'll go with that. Nothing else to base what I know of them off of.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the best thing to do is to check them out for yourself and compare the reactions you see in this game with how they behaved in previous games where you know their alignment. RachMarie, the first day town lynch, also stated that this is often JMO's normal response, so the JMO part is not based only on my opinion.

It's hard to judge with so little content, but what I will say is that I am leaning town towards you, mainly based on the hammer behavior I discussed with JMO, and if you are mafia you are definetly not the person calling the shots. I'd love to hear from people who are good at language analysis like BW what they think about your posts, to me they look like a genuine new player coming into the game and being cautios.

Hiding your experience and making one or two obvious blunders can be a good strategy to fly under the radar though, but if that's the case you will have to make a move sooner or later and I'll come back to it if I think it's necessary.

[Buckwild]

Quick thoughts before bed:
There is no way that mafia could talk themselves out of a quickhammer the next day unless JMO looked so scummy there was no reason to wait, which he has not. I don't know what kind of experience Yui has had, so I can't say he is making stuff up to cover his butt.
GIF was not saying JMO was definitely town, but that the reasons for the wagon were poor.

[CrisP]

You have a point there, still it hints to the fact that GIF thought or wanted us to think JMO is town.

@mod: am I allowed to ask where he usually plays?

As for people getting away with hammers, it is unlikely but it makes sense for him to say so given the stance he is taking.

[jmo16mla]

Buck is further backing me saying that someone who quick hammered me wouldn't live tomorrow. It's followed on this site for the most part(or so I would like to think).

If that person quick hammering is town, well they screwed up, knowing that they would get all of the attention on them.

VOTE: arc

Do something.

[Brian Skies]

My focus is currently being directed elsewhere. I'll post tomorrow.

[CrisP]

By the way it's not strange at all that I was town-read by everyone day1 JMO, as long as I was pushing on you mafia had no interest in disputing it, it was actually better for them because it gave more weight to my accusations.

I'm disappointed Brian, where's the kitten?

[goodmorning]

Nobody yet picked up on the thing that I wanted them to pick up on. Why is it that my reaction tests never work?

@Brian: conflict... of interest... senses... tingling

[CrisP]

what is this GM?

Are you warning Brian that you are about to buss him?

See the beauty of playing the bull in the china shop is that even if you completely screw up on your accusations like I did it still gives you a lot of information. I'm ashamed to say I actually misinterpreted your early BW read but once you made the connection for me I got what Brian.

Of course it only works if the rest of town believes you are town, otherwise you might look scummy, but you did that for me

Nacho was indeed killed cause he is Nacho.

[CrisP]

Also congrats JM for picking up on her from the start, the problem is you do not verbalise your reads, so for a Nacho, GIF or indeed GM it's obvious what you are going on about, but for someone like me who doesn't have the skillset you acquired by playing a lot of forum mafia it just looks wierd and hence possibly scummy. You'll notice I did the same thing with Nacho, until he explained the reasoning he was implying by his read, if you do the same in the future you will have far less problems with new players.

[goodmorning]

It has little to do with this game and everything to do with the other focus of his attention, if I guessed right. I don't plan to vote for Brian at any point during this game and it wouldn't be bussing if I did.

Besides which, what need would I have to warn anyone I was going to bus them? When I'm Scum it's the first thing I post in the QT.

And I don't like your utter lack of curiosity about my reaction test.

[ArcAngel9]

Buck is further backing me saying that someone who quick hammered me wouldn't live tomorrow. It's followed on this site for the most part(or so I would like to think).

If that person quick hammering is town, well they screwed up, knowing that they would get all of the attention on them.

VOTE: arc

Do something.

How does it help by voting me?
I am on today.. will get my opinion today.

[jmo16mla]

It has little to do with this game and everything to do with the other focus of his attention, if I guessed right. I don't plan to vote for Brian at any point during this game and it wouldn't be bussing if I did.

Besides which, what need would I have to warn anyone I was going to bus them? When I'm Scum it's the first thing I post in the QT.

And I don't like your utter lack of curiosity about my reaction test.

I'll bite.

what reaction test?

[CrisP]

For the rest of town, this is not a play to scumhunt, this is me with a pretty definite read on the mafia this game.

I'll write a proper accusation at home, currently on a train.

For now I think the last post alone from GM should be enough for you to put her on your scum list.

She doesn't

plan

to vote Brian, who plans votes? Certainly not town, and why this blanket statement on Brian, I'd have trouble saying that of an uncced PR, let alone a guy who's barely posted, of course now that I called her out on it, it's the only thing she can say.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know Mafia isn't allowed to talk separately during the day in newbie games, at least that's what I read in one of JMO's recent games, in this case you have every reason to try and communicate with your partner if the strategy you planned fell apart, if by any chanche I'm wrong then it was simply a slip.

Buck you thought Brian was scummy for bringing out your name in connection with JM for no apparent reason, but he was not the first to do so, with actions instead of words, who does GM says are her two suspects? You and JM, and looked at how she answered to you asking her why she thought you were scummy, very fishy.

While you are at it compare her first defence today, where she looked very town because the accusations I made were wrong so she just needed to say the truth, although she still dropped some tells, to the second one she gave, she again tries not to lie but does that look town to you? Consider also the timing of that second defence post, right after I said you and JM were probably town, while I was fossing you two she carefully avoided posting anything.

There's even more evidence, I'll post it with proper quotes later, but as you can see it's pretty ironclad.

[goodmorning]

@jmo: But I don't want

you

to bite.

@Crisp: Nice avoidance of my dislike there. Also nice sudden noticing of the part of my post I left for you pertaining to Buck.

When I say "I don't plan to vote for Brian" it means "I have a strong townread on Brian and I don't find it likely that anything would change that; if it did, that would be an unplanned eventuality".
Also, I tend to "plan" votes as Town more than as Scum. As Scum, one's voting is frequently reactionary, completely unplanned. As Town, one chooses votes more carefully and for a wider number of reasons.
No, Mafia in Newbie games absolutely does not have daytalk.

Unvote

[CrisP]

Sure GM, let's go at it, finally some fun in this game.

Other evidence of why she is scum, the Nacho kill:

- My reaction, why didn't they kill me, I've done and said the most this game

- JMO, Honestly I have no idea why they killed you but I'm sure Nacho was killed for them to lynch me.

In fact we were both wrong.

The truth (GM), crisP don't be an arrogant prick. Nacho was killed because he was the most dangerous player for mafia (the best is what she said), infact his first pair was the actual mafia!

- The truth (GM), crisP your reasoning about JMO is WIFOM and bad,

we will discuss it post game

, the Nacho kill had little to do with JM, the fact JM was then easier to lynch is just an added bonus!

Go for it GM, I still have stuff

[goodmorning]

Um, no.
No.

Nacho is a better player than any of us in this game. If you don't believe me you're welcome to go meta him.

And I said we would discuss why WIFOM is eminently dismissable postgame, unless you want to distract from actual gameplay to hold a theory discussion right now.
I did not say that we would not discuss your actual jmo reasoning.

Explain: if you at the time were saying jmo was Scum, and I at the time (as Scum) was trying to (mis)lynch jmo, then what would I gain from "dismissing" your reasoning, as you put it?