Mafiascum.net

Well thanks for narrowing down my scum pool I guess. I was going to push George today because he was playing pretty scummy.

So I could think of a couple reasons why George might have been killed.

1) To confuse us. Pretty much everyone expressed some concerns against him during the last day phase, so keeping him alive and having the town pressure and possibly mislynch him would be the optimal choice, but sometimes scum will make sub-optimal choices for the purpose of throwing us off. This seems unlikely to happen, especially in a Newbie game.

2) Scum thought he was PR. PR's tend to play a little bit scummy/low-profile so that scum won't kill them, but not too scummy that they'll get mislynched. This seems the more likely scenario to me since it's important for scum to PR hunt and get rid of any advantage that the town has.

This is the kind of kill I see coming from someone who's experienced with mafia and/or someone who's being coached by an experienced player. I think at least one of our remaining SE (Salad/teacher) players is scum.

teacher is by far the towniest of the two, but I don't want to rule him out completely. I've learned that even the most obvtown players can still turn out to be scum and according to teacher, he obvtowns it up as either alignment. He was also the driving force behind the Dong lynch yesterday, which does concern me a bit. However, Salad is easily the scummier looking of the two. For now...

VOTE: Salad

It might also be worth taking a look at who George (and to a lesser extent, Dong) were scumreading and how the other players interacted with those slots.

Overleaf is an online collaborative L^AT_EX editor

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Saladman27

(1): AaronFrost

Not Voting

(6): Chibiie, Gimm1ck, Saladman27, Spartan117, teacher, Yodavader

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-10-17 19:00:00).

[/area]

In post 351, AaronFrost wrote:1) To confuse us. Pretty much everyone expressed some concerns against him during the last day phase, so keeping him alive and having the town pressure and possibly mislynch him would be the optimal choice, but sometimes scum will make sub-optimal choices for the purpose of throwing us off. This seems unlikely to happen, especially in a Newbie game.

Disclaimer: I'm on phone, the following text might be confusing and completely messed up order-wise.

Aaron, I thought about this as well and sincerely, my opinion is that this kill is a framing / blackmail kill.
George was indeed in a soft conflict with probably everyone, however, being that it was D1, it was unfortunate that Dong got mislynched and fact happens that George was defending him, but IMO defending someone who isn't pushed to L-1 and NOT having a solid reason behind (being Masons), looked suspicious to me (I didn't read entirely through all posts so I'm not 100% sure on everyone else's thoughts about that). I'll call that George's misplay.

I believe this was a blackmail kill and will be used for the next lynch. I will write a longer and more detailed post tomorrow and I also hope that people will talk more about it by that time so I can also place my vote.

Georgebruedly kill can be taken three ways:

1. Obvtownies are really scum.

2. Null kill to prevent reads from flips and/or an attempt to throw off town.

3. PR read.

I am inclining the third option as incorrect as I see no real reason to PR read George from anywhere on site.

Given the first case scenario, I believe the two most obvious townies to be teacher and Aaron.

Given the second, it is possibly a scum tactic to divert attention to the obvious townies and to shine some negative light on them, which I find to be the most plausible explanation of the night kill.

Going over yesterday's lynches and seeing what we can see. I am still mobile and having some internet connection issues, but I'll get out as much as I can, when I can.

I disagree that Dong should have been lynched yesterday, which is why I am returning to VOTE: Saladman

In post 284, Yodavader wrote:

In post 281, Saladman27 wrote:

-snipping my quote so that it's not adding to the wall of text-

First, I said for some bullshit reason because I actually forgot why. I put dong on there because they were one of the top 2 wagons. I voted spartan because I wanted to wait for dong, but I should’ve unvoted instead.

So, you are basically saying that you will just +1 whatever the biggest wagon is currently?

In post 285, Saladman27 wrote:Not necessarily now, but yeah, basically.

I honestly do not like this. While yes, having a flip day one is beneficial to town, you should not be mindlessly hopping on to a wagon for the sheer sake of having a wagon - this is personally a scummy mindset.
I generally feel that town would have a wagon going on a scumread/lean and be pressuring that slot at that current moment - having a filler post of 'I'm going to +1 the biggest wagon' without making significant attempts to wagon onto another person you personally feel is scummy (or providing a reason to +1 the wagon), I classify that as scummy.

In post 305, GeorgeBailey wrote:I'm conflicted between voting

Salad

or

Dong

.

Salad has done some interesting plays that stand out, and Dong seems quiet. Dong's accusation against teacher felt too meta, and a bit of a reach.

And Gimm1ck (still voting for Spartan, no reason specified) has been making strange pot-shots at Aaron.

I guess the choice is to either join Teacher's wagon or Spartan's wagon. Since I really don't want a d1 no-lynch

And I think I trust the people on Teacher's wagon more. I still can't really tell what Yoda's alignment is. But i'm pretty sure Aaron is town.

So, sorry m80.

VOTE: Dongempire

After this, I believe Dong is at

L-2

This is another thing I would like to mention - I doubt this is the main probable reason George was nked if Salad is scum, but it definitely is noteworthy that George scumread Salad.

This is the format I'm used to but w/e
TT; Teacher
T; Aaron, Chiibii
N: Spartan
W:Yoda
WW: Saladman

Spicy nk. Not at all expected.

I’m swamped but will give my own thoughts tomorrow.

Well, hell. 2 of my bottom 3 are gone.

In post 351, AaronFrost wrote:

-snip-

This is the kind of kill I see coming from someone who's experienced with mafia and/or someone who's being coached by an experienced player. I think at least one of our remaining SE (Salad/teacher) players is scum.

teacher is by far the towniest of the two, but I don't want to rule him out completely. I've learned that even the most obvtown players can still turn out to be scum and according to teacher, he obvtowns it up as either alignment. He was also the driving force behind the Dong lynch yesterday, which does concern me a bit. However, Salad is easily the scummier looking of the two. For now...

VOTE: Salad

It might also be worth taking a look at who George (and to a lesser extent, Dong) were scumreading and how the other players interacted with those slots.

During the night phase, I was also thinking this. That one of the SE's could be scum. Again, just like you, I also think that teacher is the towniest person here.

As for why scum chose to kill George? That I have no idea.

Out of all the people that could have been NK, the obv choice, IMO, would have been teacher. To me, he is the person who has the biggest voice in the game right now. So that has me thinking that if he didn't get the NK, then could he be scum? I still think that Salad's a better choice but now I don't know.

I'm still inclined to vote for Salad but as he is already at 2 votes, I'll hold off for now. I don't want to L-1 him at this early in the day but my intent is there. I think it should be 7 alive, 4 to lynch.

To bring some sort of substance that’s probably been said before, scum probably killed George because his posts sounded PR like.

imo

In post 360, Saladman27 wrote:To bring some sort of substance that’s probably been said before, scum probably killed George because his posts sounded PR like.

Regarding this, I'm not a really big fan of this post...
I'll take Gimm1ck's post and put it here as a reply to you, Salad. Will also add my thoughts at the end of the post.

In post 354, Gimm1ck wrote:Georgebruedly kill can be taken three ways:

1. Obvtownies are really scum.

2. Null kill to prevent reads from flips and/or an attempt to throw off town.

3. PR read.

I am inclining the third option as incorrect as I see no real reason to PR read George from anywhere on site.

Given the first case scenario, I believe the two most obvious townies to be teacher and Aaron.

Given the second, it is possibly a scum tactic to divert attention to the obvious townies and to shine some negative light on them, which I find to be the most plausible explanation of the night kill.

Going over yesterday's lynches and seeing what we can see. I am still mobile and having some internet connection issues, but I'll get out as much as I can, when I can.

I disagree that Dong should have been lynched yesterday, which is why I am returning to VOTE: Saladman

I agree with Gimm1ck on this one for the sole reason that everyone was in a soft conflict with George. IMO there was not a single PR read through his posts... Maybe that of Masons (Dong - George), but that was quickly erased once he decided to protect himself and admit that he was defending Dong too much and also that he voted against him.

As of now, Salad has been pretty chill, which makes me think that he is indeed scum. He's not really sharing full thoughts in-game and just keeps a low-profile. This is kind of a throw off for me since I could also say he's PR then and does not want attention, BUT keeping too low of a profile can backfire...

I'm not really sure who to vote, because when reviewing the game, I can also see Yoda being a little scummy.

In post 186, Yodavader wrote:My bottom 3 are Dong(maybe), Salad(more than likely), George(more than likely).

Remember this? I think I can connect some dots now, but it is just a speculation, BUT I might be correct, idk.

In post 205, Yodavader wrote:Scum1 will vote for scum2 to distance themselves, especially if they know that the other person is caught. That way, they(1) can say that they were town because they(1) were part of the vote that lynched scum2.

Next post after saying this (distance of 72 posts, lol a few pages later), he votes against Salad after having somewhat kind of logic behind, but IMO that logic was scumlogic which himself wrote it right ^there (#205).

In post 278, Yodavader wrote:Plus, I know that my post count is the lowest but if you look at the actual content, I think Salad has had the least to add. I only mention this because people keep talking about my post count. I honestly think that Merfin added more to the game than Salad. At least Merfin had a post explaining why they voted for someone and had examples.

VOTE: Salad

This is what makes me a little uncomfortable, because I see Yoda going against Salad, but not before posting #205 and neither before #186. It is a little sketchy because I have the feeling that I've solved the game, but at the same time I have a strong feeling that one of them is Town, but not both.



As I said earlier in #353 and could also tell in this post, I believe this was a blackmail / framing kill (or as Gimm1ck and Aaron said, a kill to throw Town off). There's not much that I can add about this NK.

Peeps, y'all pushing Salad on the chopping block and I couldn't agree more, but I will abstain from voting until I read everyone's thoughts on this NK...



I wanna hear everyone thoughts on the NK before I place my vote. That would be (in order of posted by out dear mod Plotinus) Saladman27, Spartan117, teacher.

In post 362, Chibiie wrote:

In post 186, Yodavader wrote:My bottom 3 are Dong(maybe), Salad(more than likely), George(more than likely).

Remember this? I think I can connect some dots now, but it is just a speculation, BUT I might be correct, idk.

So my list with my reasons is strange? They all gave me a reason to be skeptical about their alignment.

In post 205, Yodavader wrote:Scum1 will vote for scum2 to distance themselves, especially if they know that the other person is caught. That way, they(1) can say that they were town because they(1) were part of the vote that lynched scum2.

Next post after saying this (distance of 72 posts, lol a few pages later), he votes against Salad after having somewhat kind of logic behind, but IMO that logic was scumlogic which himself wrote it right ^there (#205).

I thought I was just answering George's question from post 199.

In post 199, GeorgeBailey wrote:Because I think Merfin is safer choice over you.

Plus, 122 doesn't make much sense, wouldn't we know that we're on a team? Why would I vote him?

In post 278, Yodavader wrote:Plus, I know that my post count is the lowest but if you look at the actual content, I think Salad has had the least to add. I only mention this because people keep talking about my post count. I honestly think that Merfin added more to the game than Salad. At least Merfin had a post explaining why they voted for someone and had examples.

VOTE: Salad

This is what makes me a little uncomfortable, because I see Yoda going against Salad, but not before posting #205 and neither before #186. It is a little sketchy because I have the feeling that I've solved the game, but at the same time I have a strong feeling that one of them is Town, but not both.

It is true that I didn't say anything about Salad before this post. I believe I was looking into George at the time and decided to go hunting for more possibilities. That's when I stumbled upon Salad and his active lurking.

Another thing that makes me suspicious of Yoda is that he doesn't really share thoughts and has mostly replied with one-liners that are not helpful to solving the game.

I guess that's because during the main parts of the conversation, things I would have said were already stated and I didn't want to come off as parroting. My mistake for keeping a low-ish profile.

In post 363, Yodavader wrote:I guess that's because during the main parts of the conversation, things I would have said were already stated and I didn't want to come off as parroting. My mistake for keeping a low-ish profile.

This is the thing in Mafia, in order to solve the game, players must share their thoughts, regardless of repeating a statement. It is impossible for two individuals from different parts of the world / state, to have the exact same reasoning...

It is possible to have the same mindset (I'm not sure what other word to use, but basically believe the same thing), however, you can't have a 1:1 thought process. There must be something one didn't mention, so even if you repeat the same statement, I'm sure there's stuff you can add from YOUR perspective.

Just like I did earlier, I'm 100% agreeing with Gimm1ck's post, however, I've added my stream of thoughts in there so we can elaborate on the same assumption and have the game progress further.

Will keep you on my list as it is.
Still not voting until I hear everyone's thoughts on NK and I also wanna see lists, I'm curious of current relationships.

Ok, noted. I'll try to be more involved.

//Town
Chibiie - His posts are great, he comes up with great analyses and supports them. (I like 131, 151 and 362 especially)
Spartan - Even though we had a bumpy start, his analytical posts are great. (too lazy to link them but some favourites, 91, 151 and 222)
Aaron - Highlight: 351 and I’d like to know what your reads are now after Dong and George is flipped

//Null
Teach

//Scum
G1mmick - His last post in D1 was a vote on me, he said he was gonna explain it but Dong got lynched. First post in D2, voted me because he didn’t like a dong lynch, which is hypocritical because in 325, G1mm1ck said he was chill with the lynch. One of his arguments (355) against me felt like he was just going along with the other people on my case.
Yoda - Might be coincidence but in 186, his top 3 SRs were Dong (mislynched) George (NKed) and me (being wagoned).

Yoda might be a fluke but I’m confident in Gimmick. VOTE: Glmmlck

I finally read ISOs, hooray.

I said that I was alright with Dong lynch for the same reason teacher stated earlier on in the thread. I would have much preferred Salad to be lynched and I disagreed with Dong being personally lynched, but I would prefer a townread if mine being lynched over nobody.
At work but will respond more when I can.

I don’t get what you quite mean, you were alright with the dong lynch yet you disagreed with dong personally lynched?

It’s currently 1am, I’ll probably respond after 8 hours of sleep.

In post 366, Saladman27 wrote: Aaron - Highlight: 351 and I’d like to know what your reads are now after Dong and George is flipped

- Obviously town
- Biggest town read by a mile. He's questioning, using good logic and generally feels townie.
- I'll admit I feel a bit less confident that teacher is town than I did yesterday mostly because of that NK. Curious to see how he responds.
- Moving him up to town because I think if he were scum he'd be much more content with lynching Dong than he was. Instead he tried to push the lynch onto Salad.
- Everything they've done so far feels like newb-town to me. It's more of a nullish town because I have yet to sort this slot.
- PoE. Another slot I need to sort.
- Already explained my stance here.

Chiibie Day 1:

In post 152, Chibiie wrote:///// Regarding Salad, I' ve stated my reasoning for unvoting him pretty clear... His play shows relationship to me, I want Salad, teacher and Dong (these 3 seem to know each other) alive so they can talk and read eachother, they'll either end up in the same team or different, right? Having a group of players that already have a grasp of each other's playstyles is a strong weapon for us, who didn't played with them before, because we're new and they need time to adjust with our amounts of posts, the level of interest in conversation and strategies overall (I am more of a logical, connect-the-dots type of player, will use any little information, even the order of ideas in one's post, even yours, I take notice of player's order in your post), but they can read each other to a certain level based on previous games... I want to have that, as a new player here, I will honestly abuse this.

In post 131, Chibiie wrote:Saladman started strong initiating the RVS and voting against teacher, but that's RVS and he voted teacher probably due to previous encounter in a different game, that's how it looks to me. (ofc, I needed more info which was later revealed, I couldn't assume this based on Salad's first post, so thank you for getting more in-depth with your discussion).

Short about Salad: I believe he had a pretty straight and logical play there, showing that they know each other, so they do have some kind of experience reading each other, therefore I UNVOTE: Salad

In post 280, Chibiie wrote:IMO, Salad is the most neutral read I have, therefore I gave him towncred. His plays are literally just... I haven't seen him getting too involved and that either because he doesn't want much attention on him (assuming he is PR, anyone can be at this point, we still haven't pushed someone to claim), or he's taking part of this game out of respect (assuming he's just a Vanilla Town with no other power, but to help us solve the puzzle).

I could've also assumed he's scum, however, I trust that a scum will select a target to try and push for a lynch. A specific target, someone that can be read as a big influence for Town... ANYWAY, moving on, I'm getting too much into my head and will end up with another huge post, not all information I'm running through is important, I'm still having trouble organizing the game in my head, too many thoughts on these interactions.

Chiibie Day 2:

In post 362, Chibiie wrote:

In post 360, Saladman27 wrote:To bring some sort of substance that’s probably been said before, scum probably killed George because his posts sounded PR like.

Regarding this, I'm not a really big fan of this post...

In post 362, Chibiie wrote:As of now, Salad has been pretty chill, which makes me think that he is indeed scum. He's not really sharing full thoughts in-game and just keeps a low-profile. This is kind of a throw off for me since I could also say he's PR then and does not want attention, BUT keeping too low of a profile can backfire...

In post 362, Chibiie wrote:Peeps, y'all pushing Salad on the chopping block and I couldn't agree more, but I will abstain from voting until I read everyone's thoughts on this NK..

What changed your read on Salad between days?

I think the likely explanation for GeorgeBailey's death was that scum thought he was a PR.