Micro 955: Variant Nomination Mafia (Game Over)

[Raya36]

@Raya: In general. But maybe the replacement meta for D1 has changed since I last played?

Not replacement meta but I've played with Pooky once before and checked some of their meta and if I recall correctly I don't remember them ever catching up right away in their games they replaced into.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, maybe read my case and don't literally twist my TL;DR into something I didn't write.
Perfectly fine with my vote staying on you.

[Varsoon]

@Raya: In general. But maybe the replacement meta for D1 has changed since I last played?

Not replacement meta but I've played with Pooky once before and checked some of their meta and if I recall correctly I don't remember them ever catching up right away in their games they replaced into.

Ah, thanks for sharing this much, at least.

[Raya36]

Varsoon, if you had to pick between Hellbooks and Dunn who would you choose?

I really don't think Koba is scum

[Varsoon]

At this point, Dunn.
I'd really rather not do either, though. Not D1.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

CTRL+F 'Asshole'
No Results

TL;DR: DkKoba was really inconsistent with their engagement and logic, very reactionary, very self-preserving, and their biggest scumread at any given time was whatever player was pressuring them the hardest.

inconsistency with engagement/logic - asshole play
reactionary - asshole play
self serving - asshole play
attacks whoever pressuring them - asshole play.


I basically summarized your summary. Koba didn't play like an asshole because they're scum - koba played like an asshole because they are an asshole.

[Raya36]

Also I don't see scum!Pooky defending his predecessor so hard.

I'd be willing to compromise and go for Dunn but I think Hellbooks is much more likely to flip scum. I'm not willing to go for Pooky

[Raya36]

Why not Hellbooks? Do you townread them?

[Yukino]

Lynching Raya is by far the worst thing you guys can do in this situation.
I still think Dunnstral is scum, he is scum reading me because he needs to kill me at some point this game and he needs to build up support for it relatively early. Or he is scum trying to build a bad looking interaction with me to also get me lynched.

If you want to persuade me on Hellbook you can but that's what I am feeling right now.

I still think Pooky/Koba is town and the other scum is likely just Varsoon.
Maybe I am wrong and it's Nash, my early read kinda lost all it's value after that hammer, if he was open about it I probably would give him a pass. But when he simply just said "oopsies" it rubbed me the wrong way.

[Raya36]

What are your thoughts on my Hellbooks cases Yukino?

[Yukino]

Can you consolidate it to one post? I just don't see them as fluffy or non committal as you are saying, I think they've expressed the same as most other players that they'd rather lynch outside the pool we currently have which is the reason for an alleged complacency .

I am not particularly happy both Nash and Varsoon are outside the pool but what can you do?

[Yukino]

Don't get me wrong I don't have a strong reason to defend them, I just prefer Dunnstral by a good margin.

[Raya36]

Here's just everything I said copy and pasted:

"
I just don't find he's saying much. Read through his iso and see if he says anything committal or game advancing.

286

No but I'd like committed reads. Nothing at all was committed and that reads as either scum who is having trouble making scum cases on players they know are town, scum trying to keep options open while looking busy, or town not using their ability to pressure to it's full potential.
"

[Varsoon]

Lynching Raya is by far the worst thing you guys can do in this situation

because Raya townreads me.

I still think Dunnstral is scum, I scum reading him because I need to kill him at some point this game and I need to build up support for it relatively early.

Great stuff.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

It's hard to take you seriously when you have a cat on your head

[Varsoon]

inconsistency with engagement/logic - asshole play
reactionary - asshole play
self serving - asshole play
attacks whoever pressuring them - asshole play.


I basically summarized your summary. Koba didn't play like an asshole because they're scum - koba played like an asshole because they are an asshole.

No,
Please actually read [my whole case]
'cus at [this]] point, couldn't you just characterize ALL scum play as 'asshole' play?

Hey, maybe instead of literally lying about what I'm writing in a TL;DR summary
Read the whole case I made.
You're not engaging with me here, Pooky.
And who says assholes can't be scum?
Like you're goalposting this shit so hard right now
"Oh so your argument is he is an asshole"
Which IS NOT my argument
Then you crossing your arms with
"Nah he's not scum, just an asshole"
Which is also not my conclusion either.

I really don't see why everyone else is avoiding your slot.
It makes me confident, at least, if you flip town here, then scum is hard-avoiding it so they don't get railed for hopping on.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

how am I lying about your TLDR summary? I literally quoted it multiple times.

[Varsoon]

I don't call him an asshole anywhere in my TL;DR.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

yes asshole is my term - not your term - I interpreted your case as basically tying together a bunch of traits more easily explained by koba being an asshole than koba being scum

[Varsoon]

inconsistency with engagement/logic - asshole play
reactionary - asshole play
self serving - asshole play
attacks whoever pressuring them - asshole play.

Inconsistent with engagement and logic speaks towards a player who is actively changing their approach to the game in order to best suit themselves--it isn't what town does. It benefits scum far more to be malleable with their logic and how they engage with players than town, who tend to play from the same basis consistently.

Reactionary play is far more likely to come from scum if the player slot is active in game otherwise--it speaks towards a player who is concerned with their own survival over solving the game and who will try to eliminate people they see as personal threats instead of playing towards a wincon of solving the game.

Self-serving goes hand in hand with the last point but is also the mentality of an informed minority instead of someone who needs to work with a team to solve the game and cinch a win.

Attacking who is pressuring them isn't the same as reactionary play, which can be defensive/preservationalist. Attacking other players who pressure you, especially when doing so is inconsistent with your read trajectory on them, is something I attribute to scum. Town often won't compromise their reads just because someone thinks their slot could be scum. Scum with no nightkill? Far more likely.

[Varsoon]

yes asshole is my term - not your term - I interpreted your case as basically tying together a bunch of traits more easily explained by koba being an asshole than koba being scum

I would appreciate it if you didn't mischaracterize my case in order to minimalize it.
You're making the argument that my points against Koba are points against Koba's personality and playstyle; I'm saying my arguments are cogent against scum.
The whole 'but it is just my PLAYSTYLE' thing is often an argument held up by scum and otherwise poor players. If your playstyle doesn't get you townread while eliminating the other team, it's a bad playstyle.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so basically you want to lynch koba for using a bad playstyle and you don't actually believe he's scum? good to know

[Varsoon]

With no mechanical clears on any player, it's easy to reduce literally any criticism of play to "Oh you don't like my playstyle!"
Have a problem with Dunnstral coasting? That's just Dunnstral's playstyle.
Have issues with Nash hammering, disappearing, and otherwise distancing hard here? That's just Nash's playstyle!
Have issues with Pooky literally lying about what you said? Nah, that's Pooky's playstyle.

Though, if you are the Pooky I am thinking of, I can 100% confirm that I am town to you right now:
I am town.

[Varsoon]

Pretty sure I made this clear earlier.
I'm pushing the slot because I believe it to be scum.
You could actually read the fucking game and realize my trajectory is clear and that I've cased the slot and given my rationale for it.
Your litany of approaches to get me off of my ONE vote there are:
1. Telling me to kill myself/assume responsibility--something I wouldn't expect from town, blatant appeal to fear.
2. Lying about what my case is to argue a literal lie; that I am pushing someone over playstyle rather than perceived scumminess--I won't say town don't lie, but you're actively trying to handwave my points without actually engaging with them at all.
3. Sayiing that I don't believe a player is scum, which is another lie--only I know what I believe, Pooky. You don't have to take my word for it, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't literally lie to people about it, because;
This all strikes me as you trying to manipulate me and other players with lies in order to make your slot look more town.
That's not town play. That doesn't help solve a town wincon at all.
That's why I'm still voting your slot.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

not everything is play style