Every Inquirer has a different question he asks every night:
"Is player X mafia?"
"Is player X not mafia?"
"Is the answer to the question of player X not dependent on the alignment of the target?"
"Has player X ever targeted me?"
"Did player X target me this night?"
"Has player X ever targeted a scum player?"
"Does the question of player X include a negation?"
I think this is an interesting idea. I suggest you need to find whether any level of scum-hunting is needed and optimal play.
Been trying to come up with a setup that has Gunmakers, which gives any player one day shot.
13 Players
Mafia:
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Reflector(If shot during day, kills whoever shot them.)
1 Mafia FedEx Driver(Picks two players. If a gun is given to player A, player B recieves it instead.)
Town:
2 of the following{
33% for Tracker
33% for Watcher
33% for Two Shot Vestmaker[Gives a vest to a player. If that player is shot, it will instead hit the vest. Vests can only be hit once, after that the player will die.
}
1 Gunmaker(Gives a gun to another player each night. The player is told they recieved the gun and may use it during the day to daykill someone.)
1 Noobie Gunmaker(Has a 50% chance to give a player a normal gun, a 35% chance to give a player a gun that fires blanks, and a 15% not to give a gun at all. Is not told they are Noobie.)
6 VTs
Thoughts?
I can't mod for another month, but I've just been thinking up setups.
What Sleepy said. This is quite a swingy setup as is.
The Fedex driver is a borderline non-normal role, I'd take it out and give the scum a different PR. So, basically, redo the scum PRs.
The Newb Gunmaker is extremely swingy. I'd remove it.
I do like the idea. If the scum PRs can be redone and the Newb Gunmaker canned, it'd be an interesting game that demanded a higher-than-typical level of skill from the town PRs.
On hiatus from any new mafia commitments.
Jesus loves you. But that doesn't mean you're town.
James 2:13
SleepyKrew wrote:Wouldn't the Reflector become obvscum?
He dies in the process. He's essentially a Mafia Day Bomb. His point, in addition to the Fed Ex's, was to prevent Gunning the PR.
Newb Gunmaker was there to have two Gunmakers, but also have it so guns don't possibly work, which may turn out badly for the person who shot it, and not getting a gun at all, making the Gunmaker look suspicious.
However, if we get rid of Fedex, I may have a solution.
Gunmakers and Funtakers
13 Players
Mafia:
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Day Bomb(If shot during day, dies, but also kills whoever shot them.)
1 Mafia Roleblocker
Town:
2 of the following{
33% for Tracker
33% for Watcher
33% for Two Shot Vestmaker[Gives a vest to a player. If that player is shot, it will instead hit the vest. Vests can only be hit once, after that the player will die.
}
2 Gunmakers(Gives a gun to another player each night. The player is told they recieved the gun and may use it during the day to daykill someone.)
6 VTs
Roleblocker could prevent PR's from claiming, and Day Bomb could prevent Gunmakers from gunning the obvious PR.
Also, what are the rules regarding non-normal roles in setups?
Last edited by BBmolla on Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 Shot Cop
1 Shot Doctor
1 Shot Jail Keeper
1 Shot Blacksmith
2 Universal Back Ups
4 VTs
1 Mafia Night Roll Cop
1 Mafia Day Roll Cop
1 Mafia Goon
Notes
Mafia Roll Cops will get 1 of 2 pm's back.
If the town member has used their shot, or is a universal back up who doesn't have a shot yet, they will get a PM saying disarmed.
Otherwise the PM will say Armed.
When the universal back up takes over, the role is no longer one shot.
13 Players
Mafia:
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Day Bomb(If shot during day, dies, but also kills whoever shot them.)
1 Mafia Roleblocker
Town:
2 of the following{
33% for Tracker
33% for Watcher
33% for Two Shot Vestmaker[Gives a vest to a player. If that player is shot, it will instead hit the vest. Vests can only be hit once, after that the player will die.
}
2 Gunmakers(Gives a gun to another player each night. The player is told they recieved the gun and may use it during the day to daykill someone.)
6 VTs
Lots and lots of power for town... It's the equivalent of 2 vigs and four bulletproofs... And little killing power on mafia side. I'd say replace the RB with a doc and add an SK or strongman of some kind or something...
13 Players
Mafia:
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Day Bomb(If shot during day, dies, but also kills whoever shot them.)
1 Mafia Roleblocker
Town:
2 of the following{
33% for Tracker
33% for Watcher
33% for Two Shot Vestmaker[Gives a vest to a player. If that player is shot, it will instead hit the vest. Vests can only be hit once, after that the player will die.
}
2 Gunmakers(Gives a gun to another player each night. The player is told they recieved the gun and may use it during the day to daykill someone.)
6 VTs
Lots and lots of power for town... It's the equivalent of 2 vigs and four bulletproofs... And little killing power on mafia side. I'd say replace the RB with a doc and add an SK or strongman of some kind or something...
Or just take out tracker/watcher/vestmakers and replace it with a... a day-doc? Something like that. Watchers/trackers distract from the main point of the setup I think, which is "anyone can be a dayvig". Possibly change the size of the game too (I don't know in which direction). It doesn't
Kaboose as Mafia in an open setup with neighborhoods: "So I'm in the West [Neighborhood], you're in the East [Neighborhood]? So pretty much I would bet the other two scum are split as well?"
Moderator: "You are the only two scum."
Kaboose: "Oh good so we've already beat the other team, now we just have to beat the town."
----
Avatar is from the webcomic
1 Shot Cop
1 Shot Doctor
1 Shot Jail Keeper
1 Shot Blacksmith
2 Universal Back Ups
4 VTs
1 Mafia Night Roll Cop
1 Mafia Day Roll Cop
1 Mafia Goon
Notes
Mafia Roll Cops will get 1 of 2 pm's back.
If the town member has used their shot, or is a universal back up who doesn't have a shot yet, they will get a PM saying disarmed.
Otherwise the PM will say Armed.
When the universal back up takes over, the role is no longer one shot.
Do the UB's know they're UB's? If so the game is broken by massclaim.
cjdrum wrote:Huh. Poorly laid out wiki page, plus:
mith wrote:In order to be eligible for the Open Game list, a setup must fit the Normal Game definition.
is confusing :/
Never mind. Ignore me. I'm usually wrong anyway :S
Oh, that's because the definition of normal changed.
What's not normal in an open game is different to what's not normal in a closed one...
Also, I think normality in opens can be taken quite liberally because you can have altered mechanics (like one where the VTs don't die if lynched)
Double Redirector Mafia
3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Double Redirector
n Town
So, if the Double Redirector picks two scum and one of them performs the kill the other will die.
If the double redirector picks one scum and one town (and selected scum performs the kill) the nominated townie will die.
If the double redirector picks two town, nothing happens (or, they have a nice chat. Thematically who cares, but as far as the game goes they do nothing)
The Double redirector is a very powerful role. Firstly, if two scum are selected as it is unlikely scum will target their own members (though in some cases this may be a valid strategy), one will die at night then one in the next day (Well, soon because there may be a claim/counter claim cycle). If one is selected and the nominated townie dies, it can be considered a weak investigative role.
If nothing happens with two town and there are few mafia remaining they can be confirmed or confirmed to an extent.
Earlier in the game the role is weaker. The role is stronger when two mafiates are alive. There's an incentive to use the role later.
What I don't know is how many town would be needed for it to be balanced
1 Shot Cop
1 Shot Doctor
1 Shot Jail Keeper
1 Shot Blacksmith
2 Universal Back Ups
4 VTs
1 Mafia Night Roll Cop
1 Mafia Day Roll Cop
1 Mafia Goon
Notes
Mafia Roll Cops will get 1 of 2 pm's back.
If the town member has used their shot, or is a universal back up who doesn't have a shot yet, they will get a PM saying disarmed.
Otherwise the PM will say Armed.
When the universal back up takes over, the role is no longer one shot.
Do the UB's know they're UB's? If so the game is broken by massclaim.
No they do not.
Also, yes UB's come into effect if the shot has been used.
Max wrote:So, if the Double Redirector picks two scum and one of them performs the kill the other will die.
If the double redirector picks one scum and one town (and selected scum performs the kill) the nominated townie will die.
If the double redirector picks two town, nothing happens (or, they have a nice chat. Thematically who cares, but as far as the game goes they do nothing)
The Double redirector is a very powerful role. Firstly, if two scum are selected as it is unlikely scum will target their own members (though in some cases this may be a valid strategy), one will die at night then one in the next day (Well, soon because there may be a claim/counter claim cycle). If one is selected and the nominated townie dies, it can be considered a weak investigative role.
If nothing happens with two town and there are few mafia remaining they can be confirmed or confirmed to an extent.
Earlier in the game the role is weaker. The role is stronger when two mafiates are alive. There's an incentive to use the role later.
What I don't know is how many town would be needed for it to be balanced
Let's say you use the 1sDRed role in a mini game, so nine townies.
The chances of the 1sDRed targeting the goon who makes the kill are 23/132 or 17.4%.
The chances of the 1sDRed targeting both the goon who makes the kill and another goon are 23/726 or 3.2%.
The chances of the 1sDRed targeting both the goon who makes the kill and a townie are 69/484 or 14.3%.
Basically I would treat the 1sDRed as having the same amount of power as a full tracker in an otherwise vanilla setup (who has only a 1/12 or 8.3% chance of getting a 'guilty' in the same situation), keeping in mind that 1sDRed can get false guilties if the scum happen to kill one of the two townies that the 1sDRed targets (the chances of this happening are 6/55 or 10.9%, I believe, so it's not negligible). This would mean that you want a weak power role in the setup to supplement the 1sDRed if you want to make the game feasibly small. Alternatively, you could remove one of the goons to make the game whiteflagish.
Also, yes UB's come into effect if the shot has been used.
So the PRs can just perform their one shots, possibly confirm quite a good amount of townies in the process and all scum achieves by killing them off (which would require at least four or five nights!) is that unlimited backups come into play... Of course town would go cop and blacksmith claim first, I goess. So the backups becoe investigative and with doctor and JK still alive and saving their shots scum could not even kill those... Seriously, way too much confirmation power for town.
Also, yes UB's come into effect if the shot has been used.
So the PRs can just perform their one shots, possibly confirm quite a good amount of townies in the process and all scum achieves by killing them off (which would require at least four or five nights!) is that unlimited backups come into play... Of course town would go cop and blacksmith claim first, I goess. So the backups becoe investigative and with doctor and JK still alive and saving their shots scum could not even kill those... Seriously, way too much confirmation power for town.
Forgot to say this. UB don't take effect for lynches.
Max wrote:You see. Initially I thought that 1 DR might be too heavy without the one shot because scum could easily get screwed over.
Also, the chance of a false negative with the role played properly would be much lower.
Scum -> Townie looking players
DR -> Scummie looking players.
Though it might encourage some interesting night kills.
If the DR was not a one-shot would you feel the mini-size would be appropriate?
If it wasn't one-shot, I think that, in theory, it would fit in an otherwise mountainous game nicely balance-wise. In practice, it would be very swingy to the point of being imbalanced. You run the risk of running into the same problem as that of a town roleblocker (that is, the DRed can claim d1 and still catch all of the scum without being killed, because he's redirecting the kills), but at more than double the risk. Perhaps you could include two one-shot DReds in a mini open? I think that would be balanced, but redirection paradoxes would be fairly common.
Nikanor wrote:If it wasn't one-shot, I think that, in theory, it would fit in an otherwise mountainous game nicely balance-wise. In practice, it would be very swingy to the point of being imbalanced. You run the risk of running into the same problem as that of a town roleblocker (that is, the DRed can claim d1 and still catch all of the scum without being killed, because he's redirecting the kills), but at more than double the risk. Perhaps you could include two one-shot DReds in a mini open? I think that would be balanced, but redirection paradoxes would be fairly common.
What if the mafia have a one-shot unredirectable kill to counter that strategy?
EDIT: Though that would weaken the power of the DR.
And the DR would have to be VERY lucky to claim and redirect scum successfully.
shotty wrote:1 Shot Cop
1 Shot Doctor
1 Shot Jail Keeper
1 Shot Blacksmith
2 Universal Back Ups
4 VTs
1 Mafia Night Roll Cop
1 Mafia Day Roll Cop
1 Mafia Goon
All the town PRs claim d1. The 1sCop and 1sDoc use their abilities n1 while the 1sJK and 1sBS hold onto theirs for n2. Worst Case Scenario: the town lynches a UB d1 and the 1sCop inspects the other UB n1 and the scum shoot the other UB. You now have 4 townies, 2 confirmed townies and 2 confirmed one-shot PRs. Scum need to secure three more mislynches to win. In any other scenario, scum loses.
I suggest you either a) make this game semi-open, or b) remove at least two town power roles. In an open game, at least 50% of the town should be townies.
