Mafiascum.net

Green wrote:Since I already addressed you with that question, and it went unanswered, you should have known what I meant. I can't tell if you're purposefully not answering or if you are being thick.

Quite honestly, I didn't notice. If I notice, I try to respond.

Do you feel that opining on potential town roles is a good thing to do on Day Two?

There is no universal answer. It depends on the game, and what situation we're in. At this point in the game, I would think it is alright to do it a little, but we should avoid discussing it a lot.

6 to lynch

Seraphim: 4 (Albert B. Rampage, Green Crayons, ZEEnon, PhilyEc)
ZEEnon: 3 (Korlash, Gorrad, Seraphim)
Gorrad: 1 (Xtoxm)
Albert B. Rampage: 1 (GLaDOS)

Not Voting: 2 (Mastin, Jebus)

Mastin wrote:There is no universal answer. It depends on the game, and what situation we're in. At this point in the game, I would think it is alright to do it a little, but we should avoid discussing it a lot.

What benefit - specific to this game - do you think it will allow us to have at this point in time? Speculating who may have what power roles looks like a good way to give scum ideas that they might have otherwised missed with no upside potential except a warm fuzzy feeling that we might have a useful power role or two that now is in the mafia's sights.

How are you qualifying speculating about power roles only "a little?"
What are the positives of discussing it just "a little?"
If we're going to speculate, why are you limiting it to "a little?" It looks like the logic behind it is that extensive role speculation is harmful to the town because it helps scum. If that's the case, then role speculation in general is harmful, and the amount merely dictates the severity of the harm done. Therefore, I come full circle: What benefit do you see in speculation at this point in time?


I'm not too keen on your desire to discuss roles at this point in time. If anything, the current game status (no town dead, SK removed from the scene) looks like role discussion/speculation is actually where we don't want to go. As far as I can tell, we're currently ahead. Speculation at this point seems like a good way to shoot ourselves in the foot.

GC wrote:I'm not too keen on your desire to discuss roles at this point in time. If anything, the current game status (no town dead, SK removed from the scene) looks like role discussion/speculation is actually where we don't want to go. As far as I can tell, we're currently ahead. Speculation at this point seems like a good way to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Technically we're behind. Eliminating the SK day 1 is not actually a good thing. Early on the SK *should* be full blown against the mafia, meaning we took out one of the roles that could have seriously wounded the mafia. because of that the mafia can now breath a sigh of relief and focus simply on the town. Add to this the fact we eliminated a scum but did not decrease the scum majority goal means we have now limited ourselves to one less day that we could have had.

All things considered the SK's death is good, but in the long run we are behind. Not by much as no town is dead either, but it is still technically behind. Still i don't think we are at the total discussion of power roles stage. i think it's fine to get into a little set-up speculation though... But nothing bordering on power role distribution.

Green wrote:What benefit - specific to this game - do you think it will allow us to have at this point in time?

If done correctly, it can be a useful tool for scum hunting. It can also help us sort out the later mess of when people do claim.

Speculating who may have what power roles looks like a good way to give scum ideas that they might have otherwised missed with no upside potential except a warm fuzzy feeling that we might have a useful power role or two that now is in the mafia's sights.

Which is why it is best to limit it.

How are you qualifying speculating about power roles only "a little?"

Again, speculating only 'a little' is helpful for finding scum. To state how it is helpful in finding scum would nullify the point of that advantage, though. And, again, it can help the town make sense out of claims later on, how they make sense, why...

What are the positives of discussing it just "a little?"

See above.

If we're going to speculate, why are you limiting it to "a little?"

Because speculating 'a little' can be very helpful to the town. Speculating 'a lot' will be dead giveaways for the scum to select their targets and help them fake claim later on.

It looks like the logic behind it is that extensive role speculation is harmful to the town because it helps scum.

Extensive, yes. A little, can have the opposite outcome.

If that's the case, then role speculation in general is harmful, and the amount merely dictates the severity of the harm done.

I fail to see how you come to this conclusion. Extensive speculation harms the town greatly. Slight speculation can help the town.

Therefore, I come full circle: What benefit do you see in speculation at this point in time?

Albert will get angry if I answer this one more time, even if I just reword it.

I'm not too keen on your desire to discuss roles at this point in time.

And I would prefer to not discuss it very much.

If anything, the current game status (no town dead, SK removed from the scene) looks like role discussion/speculation is actually where we don't want to go.

In a greater amount, yes.

As far as I can tell, we're currently ahead.

Sort of. From an information standpoint, we're in an eleven-player game with a day start.

Speculation at this point seems like a good way to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Bah. A little bodily pain every once in a while never hurt anyone, right? [/joke] Seriously, though, I'll say it in brief terms:
Little speculation is helpful,
Lots is just anti-town.

Korlash: I'm willing to bet wasser would have hit town instead of scum. His D1 lynch (when the odds for not being lynched were with him) should cause hesitation in anyone's confidence as to his ability to be able to perform against the odds (his search in finding mafia admist the other 11 players). I'm firm in my opinion we're much better off with wasser the SK dead on D1.

Mast wrote:If done correctly, it can be a useful tool for scum hunting. It can also help us sort out the later mess of when people do claim.

If you're going to use role speculation to notch a few town points beneath a player's name on your tally chart, keep it to yourself - it's not something that needs to be shared with the town at large when that player isn't under suspicion. The notion that speculating which individual players have what specific roles will somehow help the town in days to come when role reveals occur is absurd. It either 1. exposes a town player to mafia scrutiny or 2. gives scum role claim ideas. I'm not buying it.

Mast wrote:Again, speculating only 'a little' is helpful for finding scum. To state how it is helpful in finding scum would nullify the point of that advantage, though. And, again, it can help the town make sense out of claims later on, how they make sense, why...

Let me rephrase my question, because you misinterpreted what I was asking. You are saying it's okay to speculate about roles - but only "a little." Well, what are you qualifications for speculation being a little, as opposed to say, "moderately," or "a fair amount," or "extensively?" It's arbitrary, and since you yourself as saying there's a big difference in the helpful:hurtful ratio all dependent upon this quantity qualifer, it's a dangerous game you're playing - even by your own standards.

Mast wrote:I fail to see how you come to this conclusion. Extensive speculation harms the town greatly. Slight speculation can help the town.

The common factor in both of those things is town role speculation. You haven't shown me why town role speculation at this point in time for this game is good.

Mast wrote:Sort of. From an information standpoint, we're in an eleven-player game with a day start.

No, this is a mischaracterization of our current status. From a power role information standpoint we're in an eleven-player game with a day start. But from a player information standpoint, we were given a free day of interactions.

Also, since you're taking the position that we're in a Day One type situation, I find it equally odd that you're wanting to have role speculation about specific players. Do you normally engage in role speculation on Day One? Specific player role speculation is simply Mass Claim's little brother. I find both to be harmful if used in the early stages of any game with a competent mod.

Warg. Not feeling good and up to the mental agility it's going to take to defend myself right now. First thing tomorrow...I had a jazz festival to go to yesterday and I didn't get home until midnightish...got five hours of sleep...so, not at the top of my game.

GC wrote:Korlash: I'm willing to bet wasser would have hit town instead of scum. His D1 lynch (when the odds for not being lynched were with him) should cause hesitation in anyone's confidence as to his ability to be able to perform against the odds (his search in finding mafia admist the other 11 players). I'm firm in my opinion we're much better off with wasser the SK dead on D1.

We can agree to disagree then. I will say I would rather see a dead Mafia then a Dead SK right now but I would also rather see a Dead Sk then a Dead Town. So I suppose the situation could be worse.

Seraphim wrote:Warg. Not feeling good and up to the mental agility it's going to take to defend myself right now. First thing tomorrow...I had a jazz festival to go to yesterday and I didn't get home until midnightish...got five hours of sleep...so, not at the top of my game.

Drink some soda and watch some Afro Samurai, always fixes me up

To the others, I'm waiting for Seraphims long due response on our submissions. I think the game needs it at this point.

Mastins, hows your reread gone? Anyone you think is definately scum? (I'd like to look into some other people while I'm waiting).

My possi's are (in order of likelihood)
Seraphim
Korlash
Gorrad

Gorrad strikes me as the observer in this game, some of his actions have been questionable but hes overall ties with Korlash are making me wonder just how strong they were pre-game wise.

Games Korlash and I have been in:
Two epic-sized large themes:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

One pretty darn epic mini theme
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

And he's been in two games which I've modded, plus is a pre-in for my (shameless plug) Case Closed mafia which is currently taking sign-ups.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

We were also both in a game which is still ongoing.

*facepalm*

So many Okay that does help the both of you if either turns up scum during the game =\

Who do you think is acting more scummy at the moment between Zeenon and Seraphim?
(I think we have our scum with Seraphim but obviously votes on him right after hes promised to respond to people would be poor sportsmanship.)

I'm waiting with bated breath, Seraphim.

ZEEnon hasn't posted since the 31st. I don't like how Seraphim's been playing, but it seems rather obvious that ZEE's lurking in the hopes that the blame gets shifted off of him.

Gorrad wrote:ZEEnon hasn't posted since the 31st. I don't like how Seraphim's been playing, but it seems rather obvious that ZEE's lurking in the hopes that the blame gets shifted off of him.

EBWOP: Suspicion would be a better word here than blame.

Has Zee been active on the site since then? I don't like saying somene is obviously lurking when it could be they had RL issues...

A quick search shows that he is only playing one game at a time - at least, as far as I can tell. I would ask that , just to be on the safe side.

Still waiting on Seraphim. Must be hard work trying to think up bad excuses.

Post upcoming. I apologize for my absence, but I have to say that I believe that I may have the flu or something similar. I feel lucid enough to post so post I shall. This post shall solely be devoted to my defense. Unless someone posts after this post, it will be the next post I make.

So, let's divide my case into three seperate parts:

1. "Seraphim commented on night actions!"
2. "Seraphim attacked another player for making the same scumtell as him!"
3. "Seraphim said the other player was scummier than him for no reason whatsoever!"

Part 1:

Alright, let's talk about this. The main part of my case is an age-old scum tell where something strange happens during the night and a player comments on it. This can range from there being no night kill to there being 2, 3 or even 4 night kills. The latter indicates multiple killing groups, but the former indicates A. A role that blocks kills in some way, shape, or form or B. The mafia didn't send in a night-kill that night.

When I attacked ZEEnon's post, I stated that ZEEnon was leaping to conclusions and implying knowledge of night actions that, as town, he should not have. I'm confused as to why this is a scum-tell as it seems completely logical to me. I really can't defend this point terribly well.

Part 2:

Yes, I did, as his professed knowledge of night actions. "GO DOCTOR GO!" implies that he knows that the doctor protected that night while I am merely stating that it was possible that it wasn't the doctor who made the save last night if there was indeed a save last night. I think ZEE and I did two completely different things: ZEE commented on the lack of night kills and I told him that doing so implied action about last night.

Part 3:

I think ZEE's action was scummier as he implied knowledge of night actions that he shouldn't have. I made this point previously.

Are there any other points you want me to cover?

Currently at page 12, but due to certain stuffs that have come up, I won't finish till tomorrow or tuesday. Checking in, I haven't disappeared on you guys.

He stalls and then doesn't claim. If he was town he wouldn't need time to think, he just had to claim.

Oh, were we waiting for my claim? I have no problem claiming right this instant. I thought I was defending my case, which seemed to be the feeling I was getting. If I just had to claim, I would have done so a long time ago. Please note that this vote reeks like hell when I flip town.

I am and have the ability to "hide" with another player rendering me untargetable for kills that night. However, if the player I am hiding behind is targeted for a kill, I also die.

I targeted Gorrad on Night 1.

I have skimmed the latest happenings, and I will process them later.

I am not Kon.

... Processing ...

ZEEnon, where exactly did you check for Albert B. Rampage’s meta? This is a repeat of my question from Post 300.

~

Mastin, you have already have three instances where you point out possible roles: (1) speculating that Korlash hinted at something with “<3 Chadokun”; (2) speculating that Korlash hinted at something by using “train”; and (3) speculating that I have a killing role because I used a quote from about killing test subjects;

What was the purpose in bringing this speculation to the town? How does it help the town? This sort of thing seems better suited to give the mafia ideas or ideas for fake-claim, and is a subtle way to fish at roles. I completely agree with Green Crayons on this point. .

Additionally:

Mastin wrote: Seraphim’s lack of posting seemed to be interesting, for the most part.

What made Seraphim’s lack of posting more interesting than others’ lack of posting? This seems to be revolving around page 4 of so of the game, where multiple players were not really posting. Honestly, this throwaway line in your post makes me think you only included because Seraphim happens to be a top suspect today.

~

I am somewhat skeptical of Seraphim’s claim. Seraphim, why did you target Gorrad on Night One? Do you die if you hide with scum?

... Processing ...

Seraphim, a few more questions:

Seraphim wrote:I am

Kon

and have the ability to "hide" with another player rendering me untargetable for kills that night. However, if the player I am hiding behind is targeted for a kill, I also die.

1.) You said you die if the person you hide with is for a kill. Are you saying that if the player you hide with is town and somehow eludes dying (through protection, unnightkillability, etc.), you die anyways?

2.) Specifically, you say you are "untargetable for kills. Are you "untargetable" for other actions?

3.) Were you summarizing while looking at your role PM, or from memory?

i don't disbelieve the option that Kon is in the game that's for sure... but...

I don't necessarily believe his claim either. Why does hiding only proect you from kills? And if it protects you from all targets, why not say that? It seems like an overlooked fact in a fakeclaim story...