Mini 304: This is NOT Any Kind of Mafia (Mod Abandoned)


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Post Post #375 (ISO) » Tue May 02, 2006 1:40 pm

Post by Adele »

This all seems to mostly come down to not knowing what the heck Vit's role meant:
Emptyger wrote:Unless someone can tell me definitively what a cross-cultifier is
I don't know whether the mod'll tell us, but why not ask?

Mod
, can you tell us what a cross-cultifier
does
?

No harm no foul if he decides not to tell us, I guess.
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Post Post #376 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 4:55 am

Post by EmpTyger »

Adele [375] wrote:This all seems to mostly come down to not knowing what the heck Vit's role meant:
Emptyger wrote:Unless someone can tell me definitively what a cross-cultifier is
I don't know whether the mod'll tell us, but why not ask?

Mod
, can you tell us what a cross-cultifier
does
?

No harm no foul if he decides not to tell us, I guess.
<shrug> Go for it, but I seriously doubt it’ll be that easy. Meanwhile, now what do people (particularly Bacde, who in [364] was so opposed) think about a roleblocker coming forwards?
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Post Post #377 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 7:36 am

Post by Drummer »

I'm not sure about the roleblocker coming forward. Is anyone else agreeing with Emp on the claim issue?
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Post Post #378 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 7:53 am

Post by Adele »

I'm against the roleblocker claiming. It's a small lead in exchange for a medium-sized pro-town role. And Emptyger's just looking weirder and weirder to me. A lot of your logic I just don't follow at all.

Unvote Drummer
although
IGMEOY
, and
Vote: Emptyger
- I hope the various reasons are sufficiently clear?
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Post Post #379 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 8:20 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

EmpTyger wrote: I have several reasons for believing we don’t just have a cult. One of them is basic math. Let’s say we had just a 1 person cult. Well, then, either Adele is lying (and we should lynch her) or it was VitaminR (in which case the game should have ended already). So if there’s just a cult, we’ve got at least a 2 person cult. Which easily can be overpowered for a minigame, to the point where Day 1 could have been lynch-or-lose.
I'm not sure I get your math here. Hypothetically, say there is a cult with one recruiter and one "cross-cultifier" or whatever at the start of the game. How would day 1 be lynch or lose? With the game starting in day, the cult would have at most 3 people day 2, if their recruitment suceeded and none of them got lynched or nightkilled.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #380 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 8:33 am

Post by Drummer »

Well, I
am
suspicious about for the obvious reasons. But there's always the possibility that Emp has "alternate reasons" for asking if the roleblocker should come forward. :wink: :wink:

If it turns out that way, then I can understand his support of it, while asking if anyone else thinks it's a good idea. But from the wording of his posts, it doesn't look like that was his meaning.

If you don't get what I'm hinting at, don't expect me to explain it.
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Post Post #381 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 12:42 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Adele wrote:I'm against the roleblocker claiming. It's a small lead in exchange for a medium-sized pro-town role. And Emptyger's just looking weirder and weirder to me. A lot of your logic I just don't follow at all.
If there's a kill missing, and a roleblocker did block someone last night, I wouldn't call that a "small lead", I'd call that "very probable scum". Doesn't prove that someone's scum, but it would be very likely.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #382 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 12:47 pm

Post by JechtMurray »

Indeed. Well, in theory I'm in favour of hearing the roleblocker's target.

In practice I'm paranoid that he blocked a townie and a doc saved someone.
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Post Post #383 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 5:10 pm

Post by EmpTyger »

Adele:
Adele [378] wrote:I'm against the roleblocker claiming. It's a small lead in exchange for a medium-sized pro-town role. And Emptyger's just looking weirder and weirder to me. A lot of your logic I just don't follow at all.

Unvote Drummer
although
IGMEOY
, and
Vote: Emptyger
- I hope the various reasons are sufficiently clear?
No- they’re not. Be specific; what don’t you follow of my logic?

Let me make it simpler. 2 questions for you:
1) Do you believe that we still have a cult?
2a) [If “no” to (1)] What happened to the nightkill last night?
2b) [If “yes” to (1)] Who do you think was recruited last night?


ryan:
1) Do you believe that we still have a cult?
2a) [If “no” to (1)] What happened to the nightkill last night?
2b) [If “yes” to (1)] Who do you think was recruited last night?


Yosarian:
Yosarian2 [379] wrote:<snip>I'm not sure I get your math here. Hypothetically, say there is a cult with one recruiter and one "cross-cultifier" or whatever at the start of the game. How would day 1 be lynch or lose? With the game starting in day, the cult would have at most 3 people day 2, if their recruitment suceeded and none of them got lynched or nightkilled.
I was assuming that, analogous to mafia operations, the cult would get a recruit action, rather than only a specific cult member(s). Reevaluating, imposing some restrictions on who could recruit might allow a more balanced setup. However, the game still seems like it could too easily become too dependent on nightabilities; the town can’t race recruitment effectively if every cult member lynched can be replaced through recruitment the following night.


Jecht:
JechtMurray [382] wrote:Indeed. Well, in theory I'm in favour of hearing the roleblocker's target.

In practice I'm paranoid that he blocked a townie and a doc saved someone.
This very well might have happened. But then even in this case there is a doctor who can protect the exposed roleblocker. Note that it is not necessary that this be followed by a lynch of the roleblocker’s Night 1 target today; however I do not think that this knowledge should risk being lost if the roleblocker were to die overnight.


rajrhcpfreak
rajrhcpfreak [366] wrote:<snip>a game like this might require someone to lie.
:( It’s not as simple as that, at least not in a game like this


cropcircles[/replacement?]:
I’m realizing that there’s another possibility for why there was no nightkill last night…
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Post Post #384 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 5:58 pm

Post by Tamuz »

[Here is this game]



----->Here is my £eve£ of Comprehension<-------


I'm £ost. Anyway, I fee£ £ike going back to raj since I had the vibe on him yesterday. But I won't do such a thing without at £east rereading.
Tamuz is the expression of the alienated, of the ambitious, of the dispossessed.
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Post Post #385 (ISO) » Wed May 03, 2006 7:32 pm

Post by Bacde »

Um, is there anyway Emptyger knows that we have a roleblocker, or are we missing something?
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Post Post #386 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 1:52 am

Post by JechtMurray »

Tamuz wrote:[Here is this game]



----->Here is my £eve£ of Comprehension<-------


I'm £ost. Anyway, I fee£ £ike going back to raj since I had the vibe on him yesterday. But I won't do such a thing without at £east rereading.
Coo£.
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Post Post #387 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 3:13 am

Post by Adele »

EmpTyger wrote:Be specific; what don’t you follow of my logic?

Let me make it simpler. 2 questions for you:
1) Do you believe that we still have a cult?
2a) [If “no” to (1)] What happened to the nightkill last night?
2b) [If “yes” to (1)] Who do you think was recruited last night?
Wow. I really don't like the smell of this. You have been digging and baiting for info too hard and for too long. Fine, I'll bit,
this time
, but don't expect me to be so responsive in the future. I don't trust you in the slightest.

1) I don't know. Probably.
2a) [due to possibility] Wasn't sent in, or was doc protected or was roleblocked or they didn't meet a necessary PR or something. Really couldn't say
2b) [probable] I really really couldn't say! How do you expect me to guess? Answer: you
don't
; you can't possibly. You're clearly either holding out ridiculous hope that I'm anti-town and completely
moronic
enough that I'll slip useful information, or you're scum. The latter seems more plausible.

When I have useful information for the town, I'll present it. You're trying to get hopeless speculation at way too early a time, when it'll be most useful for scum, by my reckoning.

If the roleblocker wants to come forward, he (or she :roll: ) can feel free, far as I'm concerned. Seems to me whoever it is can likely make that decision for themself. They have more relevant info than the rest of us, and an open discussion like this is downright inviting bad-guy opinions.

I mean, what if
you
are scum who knows that your victim was saved by the doc? What if someone against it's scum who knows that the attempt failed due to a roleblocker?

The roleblocker,
if we even have one
, should use his brain and make the decision for himself.
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Post Post #388 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 4:53 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

EmpTyger wrote: I was assuming that, analogous to mafia operations, the cult would get a recruit action, rather than only a specific cult member(s). Reevaluating, imposing some restrictions on who could recruit might allow a more balanced setup. However, the game still seems like it could too easily become too dependent on nightabilities; the town can’t race recruitment effectively if every cult member lynched can be replaced through recruitment the following night.
Well, yes, cults can be very strong. Very often, the power of the cult is counterbalanced by either the recruitment failing some of the time (for example, mafia members usually can't be recruited; sometimes certain key pro-town roles can't be recruited either) and/or by the extreme vulnerability of the recruitment power (sometimes, if the cult recruiter dies, the cult can no longer recruit and from then on is just basically an evil mason-ish group that can only win by lynching everyone else). There are ways to balance a cult, so I don't think you can rule out the possibility of a cult just based on balance issues.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #389 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 8:33 am

Post by ryanjunk »

Pretty much spot-on to what Adele replied. I have no idea why there was no night-kill last night. I'd guess, based on a role called "cross-cultifier" that we've still got cultists about, but I've no way of knowing for sure, nor would I know who got recruited if anyone did.

So, your questions are basically meaningless. Of course I'd like to know what the cult (if there is one) did, and what the mafia (if there is one) did. But that's sort of the point of the game. The only people who know are the evil-doers themselves.

Further, if a roleblocker did stop a nightkill or a cultification, good job roleblocker! But if they come forward, it just paints a big target-bullseye on themselves. Now the cult/mafia/whatever would know exactly who's stopping them killing/recruiting.

I'm against a roleblocker coming out at this point. And I'm sticking with my EmpTyger vote.
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Post Post #390 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 9:11 am

Post by Drummer »

I think that I am against the (possible)roleblocker claiming. However, I've also changed my mind about EmpTyger. I have a hunch that he's pro-town.

My thoughts are drifting back to the center of attention from yesterday. Now that it's plain that many people are Taco Liberty Bell(s), I've looked over ryan. His claim was convenient, but that doesn't rule it out. Not sure why the above post of his is simply reiterating what everyone else has already said though.
FOS:ryan
. Gonna have to think on that one.
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Post Post #391 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 3:45 pm

Post by rajrhcpfreak »

ok im curious, elvis was all anti rajite with alot of people. have they all died?
Show
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Post Post #392 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 3:48 pm

Post by Drummer »

Maybe this is the big April Fools joke...half the players would disappear along with the mod. Then we'd never know the truth. Hahaha or something.

Where is everyone?
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Post Post #393 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 3:48 pm

Post by JechtMurray »

Elvis is long dead, no matter what conspiracy theorists tell you otherwise.
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Post Post #394 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 3:50 pm

Post by Adele »

(waves)

I'm still here.

I have no idea what Raj's post meant, but I'm here :)
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Post Post #395 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 4:15 pm

Post by EmpTyger »

There are 2 issues here. 1 is that I don’t trust Adele. 2 is that I think that the roleblocker should announce their Night 1 target.

1) I don’t trust Adele.
I think VitaminR was innocent. I think that she was the most likely target to have been recruited Night 1. I do not like how she has acted today, first trying to pick up where I left off on Drummer, then blustering vaguely about why a roleblocker coming forwards would be wrong. Finally, I am wary of how confidently she is playing.

2) The roleblocker should come forwards.
The lack of a nightkill last night was either due to cropcircles’s not being replaced, successful protection, or a successful roleblock. If the first, then we know all we ever need to know about that. If the second, clearly there is no reason for a protective role to expose themself at this point with merely a speculative innocent. But if the third case, our roleblocker may have identified an antitown, and we risk losing this knowledge if not shared immediately.

And the roleblocker need not be exposed. For example, temporarily assume that there is a mafia, a cult, and a doctor. Then the roleblocker will be protected: The cult doesn’t want to recruit the roleblocker if the mafia kills them; the mafia doesn’t want to kill them if the doctor protects them; the doctor doesn’t want to protect them if the cult recruits them. Not that this is the situation; but any antitown groups will not know the situation.

Again, we do not need to act on the information until later. But I do not see how this information should not be put forward.


Yosarian:
I am *not* arguing that we can’t have a cult. I am arguing that the cult cannot be the only antitown faction.


Adele:
Adele [387] wrote:Wow. I really don't like the smell of this. You have been digging and baiting for info too hard and for too long. Fine, I'll bit, this time, but don't expect me to be so responsive in the future. I don't trust you in the slightest.
“digging and baiting”? On the contrary: as it happened the 2 people who I’ve posed my questions to- you and ryan- happen to be the 2 people who cannot possibly be responsible for the missed nightkill!
Adele [cont] wrote:<snip>2a) [due to possibility] Wasn't sent in, or was doc protected or was roleblocked or they didn't meet a necessary PR or something. Really couldn't say
This is a game of deduction. Of course you’re not going to have all the information. I should have phrased 2a “What do you think happened to the nightkill…” but that is just semantics.
Adele [cont] wrote:2b) [probable] I really really couldn't say! How do you expect me to guess? Answer: you don't; you can't possibly. You're clearly either holding out ridiculous hope that I'm anti-town and completely moronic enough that I'll slip useful information, or you're scum. The latter seems more plausible.<snip>
That’s hardly saying anything. You just presented this as a choice between (Adele being antitown) or (Tyger is antitown); *obviously* you’re going to find the latter more plausible. It’s not that dichotomous; the motive that you omitted is that while I suspected that you were the cult’s choice to recruit, I was unable to dismiss the possibility that ryan was, and wished to see how you each reacted.
Adele [cont] wrote:I mean, what if you are scum who knows that your victim was saved by the doc?
This is clearly not the case. Temporarily assuming it- which is ridiculous, incidentally, for scum to have such knowledge, but evenso- then there definitely exists a doctor, who would be able to protect the exposed roleblocker. Moreover, if I were scum and my victim somehow survived, I do not see how you would believe that I would be asking for a roleblocker- who just as easily could have targeted me to prevent the nightkill- to name their target!
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Post Post #396 (ISO) » Thu May 04, 2006 4:23 pm

Post by Adele »

Emptyger wrote:You just presented this as a choice between (Adele being antitown) or (Tyger is antitown)
I did no such thing. I said that either you're protown
hoping
I'm stupid antitown, or you're antitown. I'm not going to play your game of wild conjecture any longer. It is, at best, pointless.
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Post Post #397 (ISO) » Fri May 05, 2006 2:24 am

Post by Drummer »

Hey guys(and Adele), we don't know whether VitR was innocent or not. I have to mention that quoting every line of every post and then answering each in turn...takes a while. And it usually doesn't accomplish much.

If the roleblocker was going to come forward, I imagine that he or she would have by now. So I'm done talking about that one.

Since we're slowing down a bit, I'm going to go ahead and
Vote:ryanjunk
.
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Post Post #398 (ISO) » Fri May 05, 2006 2:53 am

Post by JechtMurray »

Well, who know's what's going on, but I'm suspicious of Drummer, Ryan and Emp.

I like Adele, Yos, and Tamuz of the post restriction.
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Post Post #399 (ISO) » Fri May 05, 2006 3:43 am

Post by elvis_knits »

rajrhcpfreak wrote:ok im curious, elvis was all anti rajite with alot of people. have they all died?
Well seeing as Vitamin was scum and at the forefront of voting you... I'm not really anti-raj at the moment.

:huggle:
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