8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[Seraphim]

If it makes you feel better it's not because you voted her that I unvoted?

[Seraphim]

Yo we still have plenty of time to figure some stuff out and I think giving sotty more time to post should be a part of figuring that stuff out.

[Albert B. Rampage]

If it makes you feel better it's not because you voted her that I unvoted?

That's unacceptable.

You can't come in with a post like this at 10pm:

Meaning that the scumteam is within:
Kagami, sotty, Eddie, Hoopla, Nacho

Unvote
Vote: sotty

The Kagami and Eddie slots need more time. Nacho I feel should be more town than he currently is, same with Hoopla. That's from past experience, but it's enough to keep them off the town list. While I don't necessarily agree with GreyICE's initial attack on sotty for various reasons, I do think her play has been less than stellar as it only includes a 1v1 with GreyICE and has really only been reactive play. I'm not seeing any significant scumhunting, only arguments back and forth. Her vote on me reeks, seems like she did it because it was the new hip-happening thing to be doing.

Sotty gets ONE MORE VOTE from me, DOESN'T EVEN POST AT ALL DURING THIS TIME, and at 11:59pm you decide that she's suddenly a bad lynch for the DAY.

That's a world of difference between the 10pm post and your actions now.

As soon as she inched a little closer to a lynch, you freaked out and left.

That's not the behavior of an innocent man.

[GreyICE]

G Ice, read my posts on this page, are you and I of the same mind regarding this game?

Yes. You're my strongest town read, followed by ZZZX, then Empire/Zar (WHO COULD BOTHER TO SHOW UP), then MS. It's too few for the length of the game and how it's going, but it is 5, and 5 is kind of what I want here. I'd be very happy to 5 block there. I don't share your passion on wguerts, but c'est la vie. Something is tickling me there, and not in the best of ways.

As a related note, Shadoweh states that Eddie is probably town, because this level of passion and dedication is unlikely to come from scum. I'm okay with it, but I don't think he's amiable to town blocking. And frankly if he gets boxed, so be it.

Pedit: You're arguing with Silverwolf spot over Sotty cold feet. Le who gives a fuck. Nacho backs out and...

[Albert B. Rampage]

Seraphim. My friend. I'm going to give you one chance to realize how major your mistake was just now so you can correct it. I just showed you how scummy you look if Sotty flips scum. Even if she doesn't, your behavior in the last two hours are more contrived than the last season of How I met your Mother. I

will

lynch you later for this, you realize that, surely? You understand how this makes you look and how I will make sure that you flip because of this mistake, right?

Your next post is a vote for Sotty or I guarantee you I will see you to the ground,

personally

.

[Seraphim]

If it makes you feel better it's not because you voted her that I unvoted?

That's unacceptable.

You can't come in with a post like this at 10pm:

Meaning that the scumteam is within:
Kagami, sotty, Eddie, Hoopla, Nacho

Unvote
Vote: sotty

The Kagami and Eddie slots need more time. Nacho I feel should be more town than he currently is, same with Hoopla. That's from past experience, but it's enough to keep them off the town list. While I don't necessarily agree with GreyICE's initial attack on sotty for various reasons, I do think her play has been less than stellar as it only includes a 1v1 with GreyICE and has really only been reactive play. I'm not seeing any significant scumhunting, only arguments back and forth. Her vote on me reeks, seems like she did it because it was the new hip-happening thing to be doing.

Sotty gets ONE MORE VOTE from me, DOESN'T EVEN POST AT ALL DURING THIS TIME, and at 11:59pm you decide that she's suddenly a bad lynch for the DAY.

That's a world of difference between the 10pm post and your actions now.

As soon as she inched a little closer to a lynch, you freaked out and left.

That's not the behavior of an innocent man.

That's completely ignoring my interaction with KAgami regarding GreyICE/sotty though.

How about this: I will vote sotty on the precondition that you will help me lynch GreyICE tomorrow if and only if sotty flips town. Because there is absolutely NO WAY that they are both town or both scum in my mind.

[Seraphim]

If sotty flips scum, I will just sheep you for the rest of the game.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Are you seriously bargaining with me? Do you think I'm going to be in danger of being lynched in this game?? You have no leverage.

That's completely ignoring my interaction with KAgami regarding GreyICE/sotty though.

You're going to listen to any lunatic that surrenders his vote to the first person lynched "if it's Sotty that gets lynched D1"? How many red flags did you count there just now?

I don't buy for a second that Kagami has any credibility in the slightest that could influence you from thinking she's a good lynch, that a vote on her makes sense, that she's been overreacting all day and her vote on you sucks, to thinking that she's a bad lynch for the DAY. Boy oh boy, that's a big reversal that you're committing yourself to.

[Kagami]

If we're lynching sotty, I want greyICE dead tomorrow on a town-flip.

If we agree on this, I'll even bring the rope to the hanging tree. Yes, I get that ABR is a maverick, but I want some recognition that this should be a thing from everyone else.

Sadly, I don't actually believe anyone is going to let sotty dictate the lynch. I don't think that will happen even if we get to 6:4 (which is pretty much identical to 7:4 in terms of town-needed-to-be-dumb), because the greyICE-hoopla theory chat was probably just soft-distancing.

It legitimately is not a bad idea, though, and despite MS's statement to the contrary, mislynched town often have the best reads. That's usually why they're mislynched.

[GreyICE]

ABR, the activity around this wagon is getting serious red flag territory. I don't like it. LLD thinks it's shit. Nacho's vote was fine for him to ride out the day or pull to explain it's "pressure". People are setting up day 1, not day 2.

Gimme something new. Literally pick a vote, I will sheep. Something is wrong here. I'm not saying lets not revisit it on a later day, but day 1 this is seriously off. Just please lets not do wgeurts, my team thinks he looks like he's legit trying to figure out the game, and I agree.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It's getting suspicious in the opposite direction of what you're thinking. We suddenly turn up the heat on Sotty, and before you know it, Seraphim has inexplicably reversed his entire thought process based on "Kagami's sterling logic". Kagami starts setting up Day 2 lynches on you "if Sotty flips town", fueling your paranoia and hesitancy. He says he can see Sotty being scum, and then he and Seraphim say it's either you (G Ice) or Sotty, that definitely one of you is scum. This is a game of chicken and you're flinching first. Somebody's playing somebody, where Kagami playing Seraphim or the other way around, all in a desperate attempt to stop this lynch from materializing. Don't give up so easily.

[Albert B. Rampage]

My scumhunting lessons may be more gentle than yours, but when I say something, I mean it. That's the fundamental difference between us. Look at you.

I think GreyICE is really stretching my scum game and is choosing to ignore my actual preferences to make his vote fit.

I apologize that I caught you for the wrong reasons. It was quite terrible of me. In my defense, you hadn't posted yet. Since you started posting, you've given me so many better reasons for voting you.

You're totally fucking scum. You seriously want me to vote Hoopla rather than you over a reason you think is "bullshit"? You talk about remembering me not "going after the weaker of the two options" and the only game we played together was that hideous abortion where me and Reck ended up yelling at each other for most of day 1 and then the site crashed?

Sotty, you lying sack of scum, you are PATHETIC at this.

My opening vote was to get a read on you. And it fucking worked. You came in here and you launched this pathetic whine where you claimed my vote was illegitimate and tried to get me to lynch Hoopla.

A hundred posts later? Same fucking tune. Same. Fucking. Tune.

Why? You're not trying to sense my alignment. You're looking for weakness. I? I was trying to sense your alignment. And now I know. Now I know every. Little. Detail.

You are scum, and you will be lynched today. This is the end of the line, Sotty, the death tunnel, the white void. Fucking prepare yourself, because if you think MGS was me getting you killed, you ain't seen NOTHING yet.

These quotes right here? Showboating. For the audience. Big man, big threatening words. Nothing to back it up. As soon as a little risk comes your way, hesitation, confusion, "I will sheep you anywhere else ABR, don't make the baddies vote me if I'm wrong about my case ABR".

Man the fuck up.

[Zar]

I'm basically going to start by posting my reads from my skim after switching and then go over the thread tomorrow, when I'll have some time. I don't really have very strong reads or reliable meta that I'm superconfident to work with. I basically have only played with Nacho here, Sotty and Eddie from this ensemble that I can remember (Albert doesn't really count, he did have a very short scum-performance in ADwD before replacing out), and my experience with both Nacho and Sotty has been through Hydras.

UNVOTE

I don't really agree with the MS scumread. The one slot I'm mostly scumreading from my skim is Seraphim, mostly because I thought the post with the reads was something I felt as super fakeable and the argument that the wagon on him is BS because there's no case to defend against feels like something scum would say, along with the "if anyone in my wagon wants to ask me anything"... it's easy as scum to basically put themselves in a position that shifts the burden into other people and one only needs to react. I feel like Hoopla can be scum too for discussing theory rather than engaging people and questioning them to get reads or at least giving her thoughts on them other than simply focusing on being removed. Also, I can see the logic on the Eddie scumread but I think I need to see more of this slot before getting a read, I mean I just came out of a game where Eddie claimed to being town but part of the scum faction (as town), so <_<.

I don't have a chuck load of novel reads, I do agree with Empire on the ZZZX and ABR townreads so far. From ZZZX, I like the points ZZZX has brought up that I can remember (particularly bringing up the idea of building up a town block and the concerns of not cluttering up the thread), I also liked his exchange with ABR where he was trying to get a read of him outside the wgeurts/ABR argument. Regarding ABR, his posts come across as a bit self-serving, and uncalled for but it's why I like him for it? Specially the not wanting to be told what people thing and the condescending tone unto wgeurts, I wouldn't expect scum to be that pushy early on since it basically puts them in an antagonistic position. And while this isn't reliable meta, i'm influenced by the only time I played with him he ended replacing out of the scumslot, so I don't feel like he'd be as aggressively engaged here if he were scum.

One thing though

Nacho

: regarding the question to wgeurts, Empire had been thinking wgeurts was town for a while, but before stating it he wanted to see how wgeurts reacted to the question regfan asked him to relay in his stead. Basically, he was trying to see if Regfan could get a read on wgeurts himself.

[GreyICE]

But it's a game of stupid chicken if Sotty is scum. Seraphim has had his vote parked on Silverwolf/Kagami all day, with the reasoning "I believe ABR". Kagami is suddenly absolutely convinced I'm scum, but willing to hang Sotty first, because he likes my points on tokens.

Now they BOTH absolutely agree, without ever acknowledging the other, like some sort of coordinated waltz?

If Sotty is scum then I have town cred for fucking days. It's already been like 4 years since someone mislynched me (THANK YOU FAKECLAIMING FATE) and after a Sotty lynch? You and me would be fucking untouchable. SO WHY ARE MY SCUM READS SUDDENLY JUMPING ON BOARD

I MIGHT BE FLINCHING BUT SOMETHING IS WRONG IN THE STATE OF DENMARK

PEDIT: I WANT DEAD SCUM. FUCK CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY IS FOR LAZY ASSHOLES AND SCUM WHO DON'T WANT TO EXPLAIN WHY THEIR "READS" CHANGED

[Albert B. Rampage]

Now they BOTH absolutely agree, without ever acknowledging the other, like some sort of coordinated waltz?

Very likely one of them is scum. What's the motivation for this turnaround? Why risk exposure? To save Sotty, that's why. One of them baked a poisoned cake with your name on it, and tricked the other one into delivering it to you. If you eat it up, you're an easier target than they could have hoped for.

[Kagami]

Kagami is suddenly absolutely convinced I'm scum, but willing to hang Sotty first, because he likes my points on tokens.

Nope, but nice try. Sotty is town, you are not. The reason I'm ok with lynching sotty is that there's otherwise zero chance in this gamestate of lynching you, the actual scum. For strange cosmic reasons, a lot of people think you're town and they simply can't all be partners. Once you're lynched, your team has no prayer. As you correctly stated, this setup is a snowball-fest.

And please point me to when I "suddenly" became convinced, because I had you as scum on my first read through.

[GreyICE]

Fucking fine. If we can't get a town block, we're already screwed.

ZZZX, Metal Sonic, and Zar/Empire are all town, we're 100% there, right?

[GreyICE]

Kagami is suddenly absolutely convinced I'm scum, but willing to hang Sotty first, because he likes my points on tokens.

Nope, but nice try. Sotty is town, you are not. The reason I'm ok with lynching sotty is that there's otherwise zero chance in this gamestate of lynching you, the actual scum. For strange cosmic reasons, a lot of people think you're town and they simply can't all be partners. Once you're lynched, your team has no prayer. As you correctly stated, this setup is a snowball-fest.

And please point me to when I "suddenly" became convinced, because I had you as scum on my first read through.

You were trying to sell me on Hoopla town right here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6727800

So don't give me that.

[Seraphim]

There's nothing for me to react to except the votes, so I don't understand how it's "reactive" for me to want people voting for me to, I dunno, post some reasons. Like you have I guess. Which I am now responding to. Wow. Amazing how that works.

ABR, there isn't entirely a game about credibility and leverage; it's also a game about reasons and regardless of Kagami's "credibility" that case she has posted throws a major monkey wrench into my thought process against sotty. I still don't like her play, I would vote her over almost anyone else in the game right now if deadline came around, but I still am not convinced that GreyICE's push is genuine, which makes him scum, which almost certainly makes sotty town.

Personally, rather than doing the 1v1 one must be scum thing, I want sotty to post more, namely let her actually play, rather than getting jumped out the gate by GreyICE's token bullshit.

Vote: Hoopla

[Seraphim]

Fucking shit GreyICE, don't start looking town now, you're going to undermine my whole thought process.

[Albert B. Rampage]

ZZZX, Metal Sonic, and Zar/Empire are all town, we're 100% there, right?

Yes, they are town. I don't want to get to a town block, I don't believe in them. I want a decisive town victory. When the player survey comes up and you see my name, I want that number high baby.

[GreyICE]

ZZZX, Metal Sonic, and Zar/Empire are all town, we're 100% there, right?

Yes, they are town. I don't want to get to a town block, I don't believe in them. I want a decisive town victory. When the player survey comes up and you see my name, I want that number high baby.

It's not about a block in the traditional sense, some entity easily manipulated through night kills. It's nightless. We need all but one town voting to get a lynch if the scum are going to cold feet us. And without that majority, a townie can never be removed, only endgamed. Four can't endgame five.

MS, ZZZX, Zar, chat with your teams. I want you on board here. MS, I know you are, ZZZX same, Zar, just chat with Regfan. He's the best fucking player on this site, bar none.

[EddieFenix]

Kagami is suddenly absolutely convinced I'm scum, but willing to hang Sotty first, because he likes my points on tokens.

Nope, but nice try. Sotty is town, you are not. The reason I'm ok with lynching sotty is that there's otherwise zero chance in this gamestate of lynching you, the actual scum. For strange cosmic reasons, a lot of people think you're town and they simply can't all be partners. Once you're lynched, your team has no prayer. As you correctly stated, this setup is a snowball-fest.

And please point me to when I "suddenly" became convinced, because I had you as scum on my first read through.

Bulba's theory is that the scum team is made up of 3-4 strong players. We're looking at Grey Ice, Hoopla, and POSSIBLY Nacho (because this type of play from GI is not making sense if nacho is not on their team). Bulba thinks they are playing a Capcom chaos style game by hard town reading one another and that GI's plan would work wonders for scum, because even if one of them gets hit, they could pull off a win.

[GreyICE]

You mean if one of the five is scum, then when we've lynched 3 of the scumteam and 4 townies (a GREAT ratio in this setup) and it's 4:1, the scum will magically gain the supermajority and "work wonders"? Would they perhaps gain a fucking night kill or something to get them out of that mess?

LLD and Shadoweh assure me that you're town. I am over here banging a hole in my wall if that's true.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Bulba's theory is that the scum team is made up of 3-4 strong players.

Sotty is a very strong player.

Bulba thinks they are playing a Capcom chaos style game by hard town reading one another

Seraphim goes from a serious, reasoned, determined vote on Sotty to saying she shouldn't be lynched today. He coats it with a nice whipping cream of "I just want to allow her to post more", sure, but absolutely, unequivocally, says she is a bad lynch for TODAY. No matter what else she posts, he states that his decision is made.

Sotty says she doesn't want to lynch Hoopla at all because her first posts -all about setup strategy and no scumhunting at all, mind you- are good and that she "likes Hoopla too much".

Those are hard defenses right there.