Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler:

I may or may not make a page worth of posts in a row by myself. Forgive me.

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and

you're steering town in the wrong direction

.

VOTE: BTD6

What did you mean steering town in the wrong direction?

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and you're steering town in the wrong direction.

VOTE: BTD6

I was looking at the Town list of roles

. I suppose I am so used to seeing Bulletproof as a Town role that I forgot it was a scum role in this game.

Anyway, he is either not Bulletproof or is scum.

does not compute
BTD6: You're not bulletproof
ploben: bulletproof is mafia tho
BTD6: I was looking at town list of roles
Panther:^wut?

I was only looking at the roles for Town and somehow ignored the roles for scum. I had only ever seen Bulletproof as Town before.

still confused.
if you looked at the town roles, then you knew bulletproof wasn't even on the list of town roles. so why was that your excuse? that you're used to bulletproof being a town role and you only looked at town roles?

if it was just an RVS joke about his name, then you would have just responded "it was just an RVS joke about his name"
but instead, it was pointed out that bulletproof was a mafia role and you made an excuse about it (that wasn't necessary to make. scum guilt?) by saying you forgot it was a mafia role in this game

this is like the antithesis of the ploben thing. he is failing to explain something by saying 'it was a joke'. you're overexplaining something that should have just been waved off via 'it was a joke'

Look at my RVS vote in Open 638. (Yes, I was scum. No, that was not in any way relevant). My vote was on a similar principle to when I voted Kop for not being cop (in Friends and Enemies and Enemies there was no cop) so I did the same here.

you missed or avoided my point, wholly. I don't have a problem with your RVS vote.

I have a problem with your explanation that followed in your interaction with ploben.

[BTD6_maker]

That was why I gave the explanation to Ploben. I genuinely thought there was no Bulletproof (just as there was no cop in 638).

[PantherPunt]

That was why I gave the explanation to Ploben. I genuinely thought there was no Bulletproof (just as there was no cop in 638).

fair enough

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler:

It's weird to be defensive about getting scum read from read lists when it's basically all the content you've given

I encourage reading me off of my readslists! I have no problem with this.

I take strong issue with people attributing mistakes in my lists as something other than just that!
It's like if I type, "Why would I do that as town?" when meaning to type "why would I do that as scum?" (this is something literally every player does and it is something they do as both alignments; if you say you haven't, either you're too new or you're a liar because I GUARANTEE you that it'll happen in your posting sooner or later, saying town instead of scum, or scum instead of town): it's something that was clearly an error, which once I noticed, I immediately fixed.

Some things are alignment-indicative.
For instance, if I post two readslists back to back, with explanations like, "Actually, I change my mind", "this is more accurate", or such? That's content.
"Whoops, that was a mistake, this is what I meant to say"...isn't. I have no incentive to lie about my reads. As town, if I tell you I made a mistake, I am obviously telling the truth. As scum, if I tell you I made a mistake, it is because the list I post second delivered the message I

intended

. In either case, my statement of making a mistake is still true.

Which is why, when I'm getting accused of this sort of thing across multiple games, it gets old fast. There's a

reason

I compared it to "Why hasn't Ranger posted yet?". When I say, here's not the first, I really do mean, here is not the first place that accusation has been made. So if I seem snappy about it, it's because I have very good reason to be grumpy about it.

Reading the content of my lists is what I encourage people to do.
But I encourage people to read the

content

of my lists, which errors are most assuredly

not

.

Now can we move on, or will I have to rant on this some more?

Apparently Ranger is god’s gift to town

Where

do

they get this information from?

I'm certainly not the one who preaches it.

whole bunch of words that amount to self-defense and general commentary about mistakes made in mafia if you play long enough

ranger has given no content. she will argue that her read lists are content. I will argue that that's bullshit because she has failed to show her thought process behind any of those reads with the exception of the hideously terrible justification for the shadowguy read

VOTE: ranger

[PantherPunt]

I don't see why talking about objective things is having little actual content. I was doing it quite a lot in my two completed games, Newbie 1700 and Open 638.

you have this problem, though, where you only seem to want to make a post when it's in response to someone saying something about you or asking you a direct question

you're not posting of your own volition with an intent to discern the alignments of others...what some like to call scumhunting

[PantherPunt]

My reads. I'd rather not post this, but I have to admit it looks like I might get lynched, best to get the information out so that town can gain something from my death.
-snip-
Ranger - if ranger is scum we are doomed.
-snip-

I may have disagreed with every single thing you wrote in this post, and some of it lacks any basis in my opinion. there's so much I'm just not going to touch most of it

I just want you to explain this. Are you seriously town reading Ranger purely based on some assumption that the game is unwinnable if Ranger is mafia? Where are you getting that from? If Ranger is mafia, the game is surely unwinnable if everyone thought like you. Please be as verbose as possible in explaining your thought here

[PantherPunt]

I am not sure ranger is town, but there are way too many scummy players in this game. If ranger is scum, town lost already. If ranger is town, town might win. I'll treat ranger as town because that is the only way town can win.

oh. that's terrible.

[PantherPunt]

Spoiler: this gets a bit wally, sorry.

My reads. I'd rather not post this, but I have to admit it looks like I might get lynched, best to get the information out so that town can gain something from my death.

town
----
karnos - the only player I know for sure is myself.

as which alignment though

Ranger - if ranger is scum we are doomed.

Why is this? This is oddly defeatist for the first day. Look if you are town here you need to rethink this game because this perspective is stupid.

Shadow_step - seems to be using the sort of logic a town should use to catch scum.

Where?

Scott Brosius - i think he is misguided town, from my experiences a lot of town players who haven't played through a game with me think my posting style is scummy

Why is he town. Believe it or not we don't know that you are town, so saying 'lol misguided' whenever someone scumreads you is just annoying.

AlpacaAlpaca - i think just a newbie town putting way too much credence in wiki info

this read is pretty funny, but why does town do that more?

Chip Butty - probably town, but it has crossed my mind that a scum might want to defend me to build some town cred when i flip. 80% likely town

Every time you base a read on your alignment you successfully piss me off.

Bulletproof Ben - can't read, no posts. statistically more likely to be town than scum.
Florestan - probably town that is just coming to some wrong conclusions, but could be scum.

STOP IT!

duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me.

Bullshit read is BS

ploben - either scum or very stubborn town who refuses to admit an error. uses a lot of non-logic and contradicts himself a lot, but I am starting to wonder if he is just dumb town.

Seriously again you are wrong in this argument, it isn't alignment indicative

Dunnstral - one of two types. either very arrogant town that thinks he has everything figured out when he obviously doesn't, or scum trying to control the game in a very aggressive manner. if scum, I could easily see him turn on ploben on day 2 after i flip town. If town, he will probably convince himself he was right about ploben and go for chip, sinking the game for town if chip flips town. dangerous player for town either way.

You know how you didn't like me saying objective things, yeah take that and square it for this. I really hate it.

BTD6_Maker - based on my experience playing with town.BTD and scum.BTD, this is clearly scum.BTD
----
scum

@Karnos
I'd rather not spend anymore time on this as you're not bringing anything new to the table. Plus I'd rather not give scum a roadmap by responding. You should understand that.

I see, you are doing something you called scummy. It must be another joke! do you ever post anything real, or is your entire iso a bunch of jokes?

I'm looking forward to reading your posts on day 2.

Karnos flips town.

ploben: oh, my lynch vote on him was just a joke! I'm totally not scummy!

we get it you want to announce you are town. This isn't content.

I'll respond to panther after he is fully caught up.

duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me.

Not quite sure I understand this. Do you find me scummy for RVS voting or because my vote is still there? Also the lack of recent posts is a bit weird statement, I'm not always around.

It's scummy because you voted me before the stated reason for voting me even existed. You decided I was scum first, and *then* you accepted evidence to confirm what you already decided, on page 1 of the thread. Sure, maybe once in a while you are lucky enough to randomly vote the one player you will legitimately decide is scummy all through to the end of the game, but I don't think this is random luck. I think this may just be a scum who doesn't care who gets lynched as long as it's not his scum mates, and leaving your random vote sitting on me until I get lynched is the perfect cover.

On day 2, you will just claim "oh, I'm sorry, that was my RVS vote, I'm not scum I just forgot to switch"

No, I don't accept that. If I am going down, I want you to take responsibility for your vote. Explain clearly why you are voting me, and why you think I can't be town.

just stop it. town flip town all the bloody time if you even are town, you aren't special.

Overall I find your readlist really questionable. First of all I find it rather interesting how all of your strongest scum reads are all the people who voted on you. I can't help but feel this is just OMGUS, but feel free to prove me wrong.

OMGUS is not a scum tell. Of course it looks bias- I have information you probably do not have: I know I am town. I don't know ploben's alignment. From my perspective, it is far more likely the scum would wagon a town rather than wagon ploben, who could potentially be another scum. I fully expect scum to be on my wagon rather than his.

I'm actually starting to wonder if OMGUS is used as a complaint by scum more than town, it seems like it is. It's not really a scum tell, but scum often claim it against town to discredit the townies vote. I should do some analysis of my last few games.

Your reads are so lazy, Ploben is my counterwagon so I'm going to vote there because its my counterwagon. He is nowhere near confirmed scum even if you town here. There are many games where the counterwagon to a lynched town is town.

[quote="In I haven't played with BTD before, so I'd like you to elaborate. What's the difference between his town and scum play? As in, what makes this "clearly scum TBD"?
I'd also really like you to explain the strong town read on Ranger.

I am not sure ranger is town, but the ... 5]post 299, karnos"]

Karnos-one of the people who harped on the Ploben thing which I’m super not a fan of + he was wrong for the majority of the argument.

I don't like this. I wasn't reading you as scum, but of all the things to say... this just seems wrong.

"he was wrong for the majority of the argument"

Are you saying I'm wrong, and ploben is town? How do you know that?

You completely missed my point here. His IC post, regardless of his alignment, was always just a jokey RVS post and not a claim. Scum don't claim IC period because its stupid. Heck town don't claim IC either they just reveal themselves. I think he is town for Dunn's argument but that wasn't why I think you are scum.

Or are you just guessing that I am wrong? How about after I flip town, then will you take my argument a little more seriously?

no

I just don't like it. As town, I would never make such a definite statement- you can't know ploben is town. I don't think you are scum, but i'm afraid of what the other players might think after you say such things if I get lynched.

I am really hoping ploben is scum, because if he gets me lynched as town then we have already lost. Actually something I just realized. I didn't think ploben and dunnstral could both be scum, it's way too obvious... except this game could have a mafia traitor. If one of them is the traitor and the other a goon, it could fit with them both being scum. BTD being the obvious other goon, playing cautious and entering the wagon at the safest point. If I get lynched, keep the above in mind when you see my flip.

um, to be fair this is a little towny insanity versus scum insanity. None of this is true however. Again, you aren't special, you getting lynched or Ranger being scum doesn't mean that the game is over, and if that's your viewpoint you are never going to help town. How new are you? Your alignment should generally not be the focus point of your analysis: IE even if you flip town, I'm more worried about people that are acting scummy than just 'XXXX pushed Ploben they must be scum' which is basically everything that has ever come from your mouth. Read between the lines and don't just call your accusors scum.

Please note this excerpt of post #86 "ploben, I think everyone voting you is voting you because it was obviously a fake claim, not because they thought it was legit.

I don't like the above events. I am not sure yet if I don't like them because I can see a scum motivation behind them, or if I just don't like them because there is an "ah ha I'm smart I tricked you guys" motivation behind them."

I was giving ploben an out way back then. Town.ploben could have admitted he was trying to be a bit too clever and apologized, instead he pushed further and continued to claim that what he did (fake claiming IC) is not a scum indication. That is why I continued to vote him and pressure him, if it was really "just a joke" he had the perfect chance to get out and admit such then, instead he carried on with his claim that is was some sort of trap to catch scum.

he never claimed IC dude. That just factually never happened this game. He claimed not IC, and then you people cluttered the thread with shit.

Just one example of ploben's contradictory posts:

It's not meant to confuse scum, it's meant to give scum ammo to build a BS case to mislynch my town ass. Kind of like what's going on now.

This doesn't make sense! Mod ALWAYS confirms innocent child day 1 so town has a head start to be able to trust them. Scum would know the IC right off the bat and already have that info for the possibility of a night kill.

#101 Apparently he was hoping scum wouldn't know how the IC works and call him out for trying to claim the role. #218 He completely flip flopped, and claims scum would always know right from the start how IC works.

Okay ploben, which is it? Are scum smart players who look up the setup and understand every role, in which case your theory of catching one out with your fakeclaim is BS, or are scum dump players who might fall for your fakeclaim, in which case your claim that scum always knows how IC works is BS? You can't have it both ways.

stop talking about the IC claim, pretend it never happened.

OMGUS is not a scum tell no, I never claimed it was, but it isn't a town tell either. It is however a pretty bad play, as you're reads are obviously very biased.

I have no idea why you keep coming up with weird scenarios about what people are going to say tomorrow.

Really? You have no idea?

If I am lynched, I can't speak tomorrow, but my flip will speak for me. So I have to say these things now, so the scum responsible can be properly handled on day 2.

And really you are being a bit silly. OMGUS refers to voting. I didn't vote you, I just happen to read you as "probably scum".

OMGUS isn't just voting, its just that voting is usually a good marker of how scummy you think someone is.

I see, but if you think this is the case why do you think ploben is scum? Wouldn't ploben have to be town for this to make sense, seeing as you are currenly tied at 4 votes?

Are you trying to say that scum.BTD wouldn't vote me if ploben is also scum? Why not? I am truly confused by this question of yours.

You claimed that scum.BTD doesn't need to get involved in the game as long as the lynch is heading towards a town, so if you do not think he has been involved in this game wouldn't that mean that ploben was town as well? Seeing as the lynch was heading towards either you or ploben.

Had to make sure you aren't a newbie, because it seems painfully obvious to me.

To hunt scum, think like scum. If you were scum BTD, and the vote was fairly close between your scum partner ploben and a townie karnos, what would you do? Vote karnos in a safe manner, sit back and see what happens? Or would you get super aggressive against me and post even more rhetoric about why I am certainly scum? I am not calling BTD stupid. If he is scum, as I suspect, he knows I am town. He doesn't want to come out against me too heavy, or it will reflect poorly when I flip town.

When I spoke of his game involvement, I meant something more than tunneling. In his town game he votes and unvotes and switched lynch targets many times. Often he votes for "pressure" to get answers in which case he doesn't even want to lynch his vote target. In this game, I see none of that. He is planting a vote at the safest point to do so with the intention of making sure I get lynched without drawing a lot of attention to himself.

Stop assuming Ploben is scum when reading other people. Also BTD's iso is pretty clear that he isn't a player to get all aggressive, not that I like his play

I'd like you to consider a different world for a moment. Imagine you and ploben are both town. Thoughts?

Oh, I have. In the "ploben is town" scenario, Dunnstral is scum, pushing the wagon and trying to make sure at one of us gets lynched, which leads him nicely into a day 2 lynch of the other one. BTD scum still works fine in that scenario. I would prefer ploben to be town, because I am afraid if dunnstral is actually town he is going to lead to a very quick town loss, but sometimes that is just the luck of the draw.

where the fuck is this coming from?

However, ploben has just continually posted his "jokes" and fake logic that just keeps reaffirming to me that he is indeed scum, town wouldn't be so obtuse.

Wrong, OMGUS does not have to refer to a vote no.

Well, then you are just using your own made-up definition. I guess it can mean whatever you want it to mean if you aren't going to go by what the wiki says.

Basically it sounds like you think BTD is scum no matter what ploben's alignment is, so why isn't your vote on him?

If I vote BTD, it's a useless gesture, he has no votes on him.

By voting ploben, there might be a 50/50 chance of the lynch going to me or him. By voting BTD, it's closer to 100% going to me. I am town, so 100% chance of lynching town is worse than a 50% chance of lynching "probably scum".

ITS 3 DAYS INTO D1, YOU AREN'T GETTING LYNCHED HERE THIS IS STUPID LOGIC

I had more but I got frustrated and gave up.

I actually think Ranger is more likely scum than you all things considered but I couldn't ever get myself to unvote right now, I probably will later.

you interjecting that font into his quotes is unreadable. so I'm not reading it

[PantherPunt]

ok all caught up. I want to lynch Ranger until I have any reason to think she's town. the fact that others pointed out the fallacy of her shadowguy read (the only one she's given) yet she decided not to respond to it at all is definitely interesting

I think I've picked up one soft claim...so I'm just gonna PSA that nobody is to claim without intent of a hammer vote on them

I'll be scrutinously checking who avoided questions I asked them. Should you have any for me, fire away.

[Dunnstral]

Ayy it's PantherPunt

Also yea post 368 is unreadable for me too, mixture of typing in quotes and using a weird font and it all being the same color

Also florsetan I think you meant to vote karnos? Your vote never counted

[Dunnstral]

I think that super weird Ranger read is so that after karnos gets lynched (flipping scum) we go back and find that and lynch Ranger for it

I think Ranger is very likely town if Karnos is indeed mafia (I still think he is)

Panther I think the answer to my read on shadow was in my reads but basically at the time I didn't like the way he entered and didn't seem to do much then left

[Florestan]

fixed sorry

Spoiler: this gets a bit wally, sorry.

My reads. I'd rather not post this, but I have to admit it looks like I might get lynched, best to get the information out so that town can gain something from my death.

town
----
karnos - the only player I know for sure is myself.

as which alignment though

Ranger - if ranger is scum we are doomed.

Why is this? This is oddly defeatist for the first day. Look if you are town here you need to rethink this game because this perspective is stupid.

Shadow_step - seems to be using the sort of logic a town should use to catch scum.

Where?

Scott Brosius - i think he is misguided town, from my experiences a lot of town players who haven't played through a game with me think my posting style is scummy

Why is he town. Believe it or not we don't know that you are town, so saying 'lol misguided' whenever someone scumreads you is just annoying.

AlpacaAlpaca - i think just a newbie town putting way too much credence in wiki info

this read is pretty funny, but why does town do that more?

Chip Butty - probably town, but it has crossed my mind that a scum might want to defend me to build some town cred when i flip. 80% likely town

Every time you base a read on your alignment you successfully piss me off.

Bulletproof Ben - can't read, no posts. statistically more likely to be town than scum.
Florestan - probably town that is just coming to some wrong conclusions, but could be scum.

STOP IT!

duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me

Bullshit read is BS

ploben - either scum or very stubborn town who refuses to admit an error. uses a lot of non-logic and contradicts himself a lot, but I am starting to wonder if he is just dumb town.

Seriously again you are wrong in this argument, it isn't alignment indicative

Dunnstral - one of two types. either very arrogant town that thinks he has everything figured out when he obviously doesn't, or scum trying to control the game in a very aggressive manner. if scum, I could easily see him turn on ploben on day 2 after i flip town. If town, he will probably convince himself he was right about ploben and go for chip, sinking the game for town if chip flips town. dangerous player for town either way

You know how you didn't like me saying objective things, yeah take that and square it for this. I really hate it.

BTD6_Maker - based on my experience playing with town.BTD and scum.BTD, this is clearly scum.BTD
----
scum

@Karnos
I'd rather not spend anymore time on this as you're not bringing anything new to the table. Plus I'd rather not give scum a roadmap by responding. You should understand that.

I see, you are doing something you called scummy. It must be another joke! do you ever post anything real, or is your entire iso a bunch of jokes?

I'm looking forward to reading your posts on day 2.

Karnos flips town.

ploben: oh, my lynch vote on him was just a joke! I'm totally not scummy!

we get it you want to announce you are town. This isn't content.

I'll respond to panther after he is fully caught up.

duppin - weird RVS vote planting and refusal to move, lack of recent posts. seems scummy to me.

Not quite sure I understand this. Do you find me scummy for RVS voting or because my vote is still there? Also the lack of recent posts is a bit weird statement, I'm not always around.

It's scummy because you voted me before the stated reason for voting me even existed. You decided I was scum first, and *then* you accepted evidence to confirm what you already decided, on page 1 of the thread. Sure, maybe once in a while you are lucky enough to randomly vote the one player you will legitimately decide is scummy all through to the end of the game, but I don't think this is random luck. I think this may just be a scum who doesn't care who gets lynched as long as it's not his scum mates, and leaving your random vote sitting on me until I get lynched is the perfect cover.

On day 2, you will just claim "oh, I'm sorry, that was my RVS vote, I'm not scum I just forgot to switch"

No, I don't accept that. If I am going down, I want you to take responsibility for your vote. Explain clearly why you are voting me, and why you think I can't be town.

just stop it. town flip town all the bloody time if you even are town, you aren't special.

Overall I find your readlist really questionable. First of all I find it rather interesting how all of your strongest scum reads are all the people who voted on you. I can't help but feel this is just OMGUS, but feel free to prove me wrong.

OMGUS is not a scum tell. Of course it looks bias- I have information you probably do not have: I know I am town. I don't know ploben's alignment. From my perspective, it is far more likely the scum would wagon a town rather than wagon ploben, who could potentially be another scum. I fully expect scum to be on my wagon rather than his.

I'm actually starting to wonder if OMGUS is used as a complaint by scum more than town, it seems like it is. It's not really a scum tell, but scum often claim it against town to discredit the townies vote. I should do some analysis of my last few games.

Your reads are so lazy, Ploben is my counterwagon so I'm going to vote there because its my counterwagon. He is nowhere near confirmed scum even if you town here. There are many games where the counterwagon to a lynched town is town.

[/b]
[quote="In I haven't played with BTD before, so I'd like you to elaborate. What's the difference between his town and scum play? As in, what makes this "clearly scum TBD"?
I'd also really like you to explain the strong town read on Ranger.

I am not sure ranger is town, but the ... 5]post 299, karnos"]

Karnos-one of the people who harped on the Ploben thing which I’m super not a fan of + he was wrong for the majority of the argument.

I don't like this. I wasn't reading you as scum, but of all the things to say... this just seems wrong.

"he was wrong for the majority of the argument"

Are you saying I'm wrong, and ploben is town? How do you know that?

You completely missed my point here. His IC post, regardless of his alignment, was always just a jokey RVS post and not a claim. Scum don't claim IC period because its stupid. Heck town don't claim IC either they just reveal themselves. I think he is town for Dunn's argument but that wasn't why I think you are scum.

Or are you just guessing that I am wrong? How about after I flip town, then will you take my argument a little more seriously?

no

[/b]
I just don't like it. As town, I would never make such a definite statement- you can't know ploben is town. I don't think you are scum, but i'm afraid of what the other players might think after you say such things if I get lynched.

I am really hoping ploben is scum, because if he gets me lynched as town then we have already lost. Actually something I just realized. I didn't think ploben and dunnstral could both be scum, it's way too obvious... except this game could have a mafia traitor. If one of them is the traitor and the other a goon, it could fit with them both being scum. BTD being the obvious other goon, playing cautious and entering the wagon at the safest point. If I get lynched, keep the above in mind when you see my flip.

um, to be fair this is a little towny insanity versus scum insanity. None of this is true however. Again, you aren't special, you getting lynched or Ranger being scum doesn't mean that the game is over, and if that's your viewpoint you are never going to help town. How new are you? Your alignment should generally not be the focus point of your analysis: IE even if you flip town, I'm more worried about people that are acting scummy than just 'XXXX pushed Ploben they must be scum' which is basically everything that has ever come from your mouth. Read between the lines and don't just call your accusors scum.

[/b]


Please note this excerpt of post #86 "ploben, I think everyone voting you is voting you because it was obviously a fake claim, not because they thought it was legit.

I don't like the above events. I am not sure yet if I don't like them because I can see a scum motivation behind them, or if I just don't like them because there is an "ah ha I'm smart I tricked you guys" motivation behind them."

I was giving ploben an out way back then. Town.ploben could have admitted he was trying to be a bit too clever and apologized, instead he pushed further and continued to claim that what he did (fake claiming IC) is not a scum indication. That is why I continued to vote him and pressure him, if it was really "just a joke" he had the perfect chance to get out and admit such then, instead he carried on with his claim that is was some sort of trap to catch scum.

he never claimed IC dude. That just factually never happened this game. He claimed not IC, and then you people cluttered the thread with shit.

[/b]

Just one example of ploben's contradictory posts:

It's not meant to confuse scum, it's meant to give scum ammo to build a BS case to mislynch my town ass. Kind of like what's going on now.

This doesn't make sense! Mod ALWAYS confirms innocent child day 1 so town has a head start to be able to trust them. Scum would know the IC right off the bat and already have that info for the possibility of a night kill.

#101 Apparently he was hoping scum wouldn't know how the IC works and call him out for trying to claim the role. #218 He completely flip flopped, and claims scum would always know right from the start how IC works.

Okay ploben, which is it? Are scum smart players who look up the setup and understand every role, in which case your theory of catching one out with your fakeclaim is BS, or are scum dump players who might fall for your fakeclaim, in which case your claim that scum always knows how IC works is BS? You can't have it both ways.

stop talking about the IC claim, pretend it never happened.

OMGUS is not a scum tell no, I never claimed it was, but it isn't a town tell either. It is however a pretty bad play, as you're reads are obviously very biased.

I have no idea why you keep coming up with weird scenarios about what people are going to say tomorrow.

Really? You have no idea?

If I am lynched, I can't speak tomorrow, but my flip will speak for me. So I have to say these things now, so the scum responsible can be properly handled on day 2.

And really you are being a bit silly. OMGUS refers to voting. I didn't vote you, I just happen to read you as "probably scum".

OMGUS isn't just voting, its just that voting is usually a good marker of how scummy you think someone is.

I see, but if you think this is the case why do you think ploben is scum? Wouldn't ploben have to be town for this to make sense, seeing as you are currenly tied at 4 votes?

Are you trying to say that scum.BTD wouldn't vote me if ploben is also scum? Why not? I am truly confused by this question of yours.

You claimed that scum.BTD doesn't need to get involved in the game as long as the lynch is heading towards a town, so if you do not think he has been involved in this game wouldn't that mean that ploben was town as well? Seeing as the lynch was heading towards either you or ploben.

Had to make sure you aren't a newbie, because it seems painfully obvious to me.

To hunt scum, think like scum. If you were scum BTD, and the vote was fairly close between your scum partner ploben and a townie karnos, what would you do? Vote karnos in a safe manner, sit back and see what happens? Or would you get super aggressive against me and post even more rhetoric about why I am certainly scum? I am not calling BTD stupid. If he is scum, as I suspect, he knows I am town. He doesn't want to come out against me too heavy, or it will reflect poorly when I flip town.

When I spoke of his game involvement, I meant something more than tunneling. In his town game he votes and unvotes and switched lynch targets many times. Often he votes for "pressure" to get answers in which case he doesn't even want to lynch his vote target. In this game, I see none of that. He is planting a vote at the safest point to do so with the intention of making sure I get lynched without drawing a lot of attention to himself.

Stop assuming Ploben is scum when reading other people. Also BTD's iso is pretty clear that he isn't a player to get all aggressive, not that I like his play

I'd like you to consider a different world for a moment. Imagine you and ploben are both town. Thoughts?

Oh, I have. In the "ploben is town" scenario, Dunnstral is scum, pushing the wagon and trying to make sure at one of us gets lynched, which leads him nicely into a day 2 lynch of the other one. BTD scum still works fine in that scenario. I would prefer ploben to be town, because I am afraid if dunnstral is actually town he is going to lead to a very quick town loss, but sometimes that is just the luck of the draw.

where the fuck is this coming from?

[/b]

However, ploben has just continually posted his "jokes" and fake logic that just keeps reaffirming to me that he is indeed scum, town wouldn't be so obtuse.

Wrong, OMGUS does not have to refer to a vote no.

Well, then you are just using your own made-up definition. I guess it can mean whatever you want it to mean if you aren't going to go by what the wiki says.

Basically it sounds like you think BTD is scum no matter what ploben's alignment is, so why isn't your vote on him?

If I vote BTD, it's a useless gesture, he has no votes on him.

By voting ploben, there might be a 50/50 chance of the lynch going to me or him. By voting BTD, it's closer to 100% going to me. I am town, so 100% chance of lynching town is worse than a 50% chance of lynching "probably scum".

ITS 3 DAYS INTO D1, YOU AREN'T GETTING LYNCHED HERE THIS IS STUPID LOGIC [/color]
[/b]

I had more but I got frustrated and gave up.

I actually think Ranger is more likely scum than you all things considered but I couldn't ever get myself to unvote right now, I probably will later.

you interjecting that font into his quotes is unreadable. so I'm not reading it

[Dunnstral]

We can only lynch one scum per day, why are you so unsatisfied with the one I found? One interesting difference between us: I know your vote on my is against town- I know for a fact your scum hunting efforts have failed you. On the other hand, you can't know ploben is town. Either you are town reading him as town, in which case you could be wrong, or you and him are both scum and you are lying. I doubt the later case, but I certainly don't doubt the former as a possibility.

karnos - You're talking to Dunnstral here as if you KNOW he is town.

Not only do you start by saying his scum hunting efforts have failed (implying he is town and scumhunting)

but then the possibilities you list are
1) Dunn is town incorrectly reading ploben as town
2) Dunn is scum with ploben as scum, but you doubt it

Why couldn't Dunn be scum and is giving a correct TMI-read on a town!ploben?

If you're going to tell Dunn he could be wrong, why aren't you imagining all potential worlds, including the one where you could be wrong?

You are vastly over-complicating things.

From my PoV there are two relevant possibilities here:

Dunn is voting a town, I am voting a scum.

Dunn is voting a town, I am also voting a town.

To me, it isn't very relevant whether I am being voted on by a scum or a town player. I get lynched the same either way. Dunnstral may or may not be scum, but if he is posting in the thread he must do so from a town PoV. The alternative is to reveal himself as scum.

But if you think it's relevant, I can break down the possibilities further...

Dunn.scum is voting a town, I am voting a scum.

As I said, I doubt this is likely- buddying this hard this early is unusual for scum. But unlikely doesn't mean impossible. This could be the case.

Dunn.scum is voting a town, I am also voting a town.

I have considered this. I want this to be true, because Dunnstral as town could sink town, while Dunstral as scum can be detected and lynched eventually. But ploben is continually re-convincing me he is scum, even if my initial push on him was for the wrong reason.

Dunn.town is voting a town, I am voting a scum.

Right now, I think this is the most likely situation.

Dunn.town is voting a town, I am also voting a town.

This is sort of like my ranger read. If all 3 involved are town, we have lost already. Town will lynch one of us, and tomorrow town will lynch another, and scum will just get free reign. I don't see a player as stubborn as ploben coming back after misslynching me.

I like how you went in depth on scenarios for me but your read on me amounts to "he's voting me"

And you've slipped that you thought I was town multiple times so ?

Dunn.scum is voting a town, I am also voting a town.

I have considered this. I want this to be true, because Dunnstral as town could sink town, while Dunstral as scum can be detected and lynched eventually. But ploben is continually re-convincing me he is scum, even if my initial push on him was for the wrong reason.

"Dunnstral as town could sink town!"

What?

For the record I also townread ploben because I don't think you two are both scum, but even if you should flip town I won't "turn on ploben" like you suggested because I'd still think he was town

[Dunnstral]

If ranger is scum, town lost already. If ranger is town, town might win. I'll treat ranger as town because that is the only way town can win.

Like this makes no sense and we probably have a better shot at winning if ranger is scum anyway

You fabricated a Ranger hard townread out of nowhere too, don't think you've ever even talked to her this game?

[Dunnstral]

3 and a half new pages overnight but when I show up everyones gone

[ploben]

I'm here. I'm aaallllways here.

[PantherPunt]

Lol didn't really notice before but the blue and green scenarios in karnos post is the same dunnstral world (scum) and the only difference is whether or not karnos is voting town or scum in ploben

Yet there is a different thought following each. Because somehow Dunn and ploben both scum is unlikely to him due to Dunn chainsawing ploben. And karnos wants the scenario where's he's voting town!ploben to be true. Lolwat.

It's so convoluted and nonsensical that I don't even think it can come from scum bc they'd be more cautious of posting lologic. Town just post bc they aren't self conscious.

[PantherPunt]

I'm here. I'm aaallllways here.

Where you at on Scott, ranger, alpaca

[Dunnstral]

Panther you think that karnos is town?

Then who's scum, you think ranger right?

[PantherPunt]

Panther you think that karnos is town?

Then who's scum, you think ranger right?

Gun to head, yes. Willing to look lolbad if he gets pushed through and flips scum. But it screams low hanging fruit easy lynch too many people ok with it without resistance type of day1 town lynch

Ya ranger for starters. I'd like to hear a lot more people talk about her. I know some people who aren't scum with her should she flip scum, but that's about it

[Dunnstral]

I don't think karnos and ranger are both scum together

The thing is if we lynch Ranger and she flips town then we learn nothing

If she's scum then yeah karnos probably town, who else wouldn't be scum with her? Florestan?

I'm waiting for her to explain her read on me because she acted like she had something special to say about that but is voting ploben so I want to see if it's not something lame

[Dunnstral]

As for there being too many people ok with it

Votecount 1.5

karnos (4) - duppin, dunnstral, ploben, BTD6
Ploben (4) - florestan, chip butty, karnos, ranger
Alpaca (1) - shadow
Chip Butty (1) - scott

Not voting (2) - PantherPunt, AlpacaAlpaca

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

(expired on 2016-06-19 07:30:00) remain until day end

Look at the people voting karnos though as opposed to Ploben in this

duppin null-town, ploben town, BTD6 null, and me

as opposed to the wagon on Ploben:

Floreston scum (notably he tried to switch his vote to Karnos), Karnos scum, Chip butty town (but super tunneled), Ranger null (for me, other people see her as scummy)

[Dunnstral]

Basically Ploben looks like a counter-wagon to Karnos

Even though it was kind of the other way around in how they formed

[PantherPunt]

Basically Ploben looks like a counter-wagon to Karnos

Even though it was kind of the other way around in how they formed

I'll get to 395 when I have my notes in front of me on PC tomorrow. Mobile for now

You have no doubts on ploben? Given what you said?
I think his fast and loose tone in the beginning bodes well but there are certainly some flags

[ploben]

I'm here. I'm aaallllways here.

Where you at on Scott, ranger, alpaca

Scott

: I like his 235. Pretty straight forward in 257. If me and Karnos are town vs town then Chip would be my next lynch I think. Scott is town so far for me.

Ranger

: Reads are way off in my mind but I'm trying not to be biased based on how I'm reading the game. 168 is actually a pretty good analysis but as Mafia goes it's all about determining intent. Not sure about that yet. 286seems really out of place but not alignment indicative. Null.

Alpaca

: Lurking with a few posts. Nothing really in terms of content. I have no idea where he stands on anyone or this game. That could be dangerous and I've pointed this out. Slight lean scum.

All 3 I'd like to see where they're at.