Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[Nauci]

The way Raya and Hectic switched gears into Gibus just feels really scummy for gut reasons I can't currently explain.

I feel like Raya was a bit too eager to accept my town read of her and read on the rest of the game and is now considering me pocketed, but I'm also a very very paranoid player who frequently thinks my top town read is scum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hectic I felt was entirely null until a player who, with apparently literal decades of experience, didn't realize he was making a L-1 vote. Thoughts, Umlaut?

[Raya36]

Why is M2H in your pool?

I considered their predecessor town for the most part and feel their own ISO was generally towny; the more relevant reason is that they're less involved in the associatives surrounding the two biggest wagons, along with Snow and pi.

So preflip wagon analysis?

[Raya36]

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I feel like Raya was a bit too eager to accept my town read of her and read on the rest of the game and is now considering me pocketed, but I'm also a very very paranoid player who frequently thinks my top town read is scum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Idk what you mean by too eager but I only have you as a town lean. I don't feel like even if I was scum I'm in a position to consider you pocketed? But maybe from your POV you feel that way

[Nauci]

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I feel like Raya was a bit too eager to accept my town read of her and read on the rest of the game and is now considering me pocketed, but I'm also a very very paranoid player who frequently thinks my top town read is scum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Idk what you mean by too eager but I only have you as a town lean. I don't feel like even if I was scum I'm in a position to consider you pocketed? But maybe from your POV you feel that way

That's fair

I have a habit of being very paranoid about my top town read (s) right at the end of day 1

Gibus where are you

[Umlaut]

Just did a quick vote count and 4/9 players aren't voting right now with a day to deadline, so that's cool :)

gibus (3) - M2H, Raya36, Hectic
Hectic (2) - piisirrational, gibus
Nauci (1) - Umlaut

Not Voting (4) - Homura, gibus, Snowblaze, Nauci

I'm still not totally sold on Nauci town; her catch-up was good but not so good that I don't think scum could post like that. I think people in general give a bit too much credit for making any effort at all. That said the wagon seems to have disintegrated and her posting has been good enough that I'm willing to hold off and see where she goes. In particular I think her paranoia about how fast the gibus wagon has grown is pretty believable since I feel the same way about it.

UNVOTE: Nauci
VOTE: Hectic

Hectic I felt was entirely null until a player who, with apparently literal decades of experience, didn't realize he was making a L-1 vote. Thoughts, Umlaut?

I agree failing to notice an L-1 is not a good sign, but if 68 is your source for "literal decades of experience" then you should note that that's an even-numbered post.

[keyenpeydee]

Vote count 1.13

The Straight Ally Flag

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(L-2) Hectic

- piisirrational, gibus, Umlaut,

(L-2) gibus

- M2H, Raya36, Hectic,

(3) Not Voting

- Homura, Snowblaze, Nauci,

MOD NOTES

: Day has been extended for 2 days. Good luck to everybody!
With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch. Day One will end in

(expired on 2020-06-21 10:30:00)

.
#BlackLivesMatter

[Umlaut]

Oops, I double-counted gibus in "Not Voting," my bad. Only 3/9 players not voting.

[piisirrational]

Ok, more fully catching up now

I'm only on page 7 but I have a stronger-than-typical-by-page-7 scum lean on Ghost Ganster

His long post was the sort of ramble that I have definitely employed as scum to sound like I am evaluating people and really trying to get reads, but without actually making my mind up much on anybody. Like, the way that there are so many posts that have scum equity to him SO early on in the game just feels more like a scum player who is actively trying to read every post in a bad light in order to scum case them and keep multiple push options open. The scum read is then seriously compounded by the fact that after that noise, and with real substance in the game, he defaulted to a poke-the-lurkers stance. He even said that he tries to have reads early in the game to the point of forcing/faking them early on, used that stance to criticize another player for not having strong reads by like page 5, but all he came up with after those posts is policy voting a lurker. That just feels like scummy hesitation because the scum equity posts he talked about feel like too much of a reach even for him.

I don't think Ghost is scum by his long posts. Although he was inconsistent at many points in his posts (such as the things he found in other people that are scummy), that reads more like town to me because I would expect scum to come up with a story and stick to it. Ghost did make a good point that even when some of the wagons gained traction from people whom he scumread he didn't vote and go with it, so I don't see any scum motivation there.

Well I'm caught up now, but I can't believe how close to deadline this game is for having only 14 pages. There's not a ton of alignment indicative interactions yet simply because it's been slow and there has really been a lack of real time interactions.

I'm sorry that Elmo wasn't able to come in and answer the questions but I know that she is an extremely busy person between her job and probably like modding 3 games at a time.

Anyway, I don't see her case on Snow and I generally disagree with it.

I have a town read on Raya, town lean on Snowblaze and Pi, null-paranoia on Hectic, entirely-null on Homura, scumlean on Umlaut (Umlaut is a pretty darn good player so I haven't seen anything here that isn't, IMO, a "towny" or "scumhunting" post which would be easily imitable by Scumlaut), Gibus, and Ghost.

Feels like someone not making something towny regardless of how well they play as scum is NAI in a low-activity game. I can understand this if this was a much higher-level activity game, and even you said that there weren't many AI posts/interactions yet. Any other reasons why you're scumleaning Umlaut?

[Nauci]

I agree failing to notice an L-1 is not a good sign, but if 68 is your source for "literal decades of experience" then you should note that that's an even-numbered post.

Goddamnit lmao

I guess I didn't pick up on that trend until a few pages later

[piisirrational]

I'm still not totally sold on Nauci town; her catch-up was good but not so good that I don't think scum could post like that. I think people in general give a bit too much credit for making any effort at all. That said the wagon seems to have disintegrated and her posting has been good enough that I'm willing to hold off and see where she goes. In particular I think her paranoia about how fast the gibus wagon has grown is pretty believable since I feel the same way about it.

It's not the fact that it's the effort that is what giving me a townlean on her, but more of the content behind the post. I think the fact that she split up her catch-up post (I feel like scum would probably be more likely to put everything into one post) and the fact that she plans to "properly resuscitate the game" is town-indicative.

[Nauci]

I really hate how much of the day Homura has spent not voting

VOTE: Homura

My lynch pool today is Hectic, Gibus, Homura. It seems significant that Hectic and Gibus are both at -2 and that both of those wagons built up quickly at EOD and they're voting each other. Surely both aren't scum together but it makes me paranoid that neither is scum. However, this could also just be because town finally realized there's a need to collapse onto a lynch at this point after my wagon fell apart?

I think we need to scrutinize the people who hopped off of my wagon and onto one of Gibus or Hectic with very little reason or commitment, so... Hectic or Umlaut?

Right now I'm scumreading Hectic more than Gibus. I realized that I misread Gibus's post about elmo and think that it is actually rather town of him to go against some vocal town leaders and give Elmo a town read. Obviously, Elmo wasn't even around enough to consider that a good target for pocketing, and there were plenty of low hanging fruit posts there to park an easy vote. Since I know for a fact that my slot is town, I also know for a fact that he wasn't doing it to protect a scum buddy. My suspicion is still largely based on the way Gibus switched around at the end of the day to 2 people in his POE which he's never provided a reason to scum read, and eagerly await his response.

[Umlaut]

It's not the fact that it's the effort that is what giving me a townlean on her, but more of the content behind the post. I think the fact that she split up her catch-up post (I feel like scum would probably be more likely to put everything into one post) and the fact that she plans to "properly resuscitate the game" is town-indicative.

Really? I don't buy "splitting up her catch-up post" as AI at all, and as for that "resuscitate the game" comment... you are aware that scum want people to think they're town, yes?

@Nauci

You're going to acknowledge we need to consolidate on a lynch, and then start a whole new wagon from zero? How about you vote Hectic so we can actually get an intent before we're down to last-second scrambling?

[Nauci]

I was hoping to spur them to make a few more posts before EOD since there's still a fair amount of time left

[Nauci]

I'm still waiting for Gibus to respond before I decide who to vote

[gibus]

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Why does that mean you were wrong on Raya?

I don't think I ever scumread Elmo. I'm getting town pings from your posts and I like your explanation for Elmo's actions.

I initially disagreed with Snow's read on Raya but I realised it would have been a bad trade off to be scum motivated. That's why I flip flopped on their slot.

This doesn't make sense. You're flipflopping on Raya's slot because you feel that someone who's townreading them is now town instead of scum? Feels like you should be flipflopping on someone under the consideration of their own posts, not based on who's townreading them.

No, I flip flopped when I realised there was no strong reason for that push to be scum motivated (why would scum go for GG). I thought of a few reasons for why scum would do that, but the majority of the playerlist didn't think they were practical, which made me reconsider my read.

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Because you pushed me and when it didn't gain any traction you hopped off. That's not how town plays. Town keeps pressuring until they actually think the person they thought was scum is town.

I don't agree with your logic. Why is that not how town plays? Why don't town reconsider their reads based on existing TR reasons and SR reasons?

Gibus, this isn't a particularly new or unconventional tell. It's the classic elitell. If a player is in multiple games and is active in all of them except for 1, that game is usually their scum game. It's surprisingly effective. I don't like how you're trying to frame that as a bad faith push.

You're saying she could just be unmotivated but that's the point of the tell, in general people like playing scum less and have less energy for it.

I want to vote in [gibus, Nauci].

That was quick. Are we both bad faith pushing each other?
In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

Hn
Aya
Swan
Icuna
Norati
Amu
Talum
Busi

Is it really this again, Busi? Would you try to lynch me day 1 after last game? I think you're more likely to do it as scum than town if given the opportunity. That's my worry.

Even if I was scum and you were town, there's a difference between the two games. I was your top scumread in that game, whereas I was average (220, 248) here. Do you really think that scum!gibus would pick town!you knowing fully well that town!you is strong enough to end the game in two days instead of trying to climb up in your readlist and consider killing you N1? I think you're being insincere.

[Nauci]

In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

When are you referencing here? I don't specifically remember this happening I guess

[gibus]

In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

When are you referencing here? I don't specifically remember this happening I guess

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11830569
I think I subconsciously tied not developing reads to lurking with votato's drop in activity in that game. Still, I'm not bad faith pushing Hectic.

[Nauci]

In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

When are you referencing here? I don't specifically remember this happening I guess

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11830569
I think I subconsciously tied not developing reads to lurking with votato's drop in activity in that game. Still, I'm not bad faith pushing Hectic.

I don't understand. Lilith didn't mention votato being active in other games anywhere as far as I can tell?

[gibus]

In a game I played (NEWB 2004), a scummer scumread a player for lurking and being unmotivated unlike their other ongoing games, where they were active. That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

When are you referencing here? I don't specifically remember this happening I guess

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11830569
I think I subconsciously tied not developing reads to lurking with votato's drop in activity in that game. Still, I'm not bad faith pushing Hectic.

I don't understand. Lilith didn't mention votato being active in other games anywhere as far as I can tell?

Yes, she didn't. But votato WAS active in other games, even though he was town there.
I'm trying to say scum lilith took advantage of town votato's drop in activity and lack of motivation to develop a read.

[Nauci]

Are you using that example to say that inactivity is not an indication of scumminess and therefore you town read Elmo, or that, in addition to this, it's a reason to scumread Hectic for relying on it in his Elmo case?

[gibus]

Are you using that example to say that inactivity is not an indication of scumminess and therefore you town read Elmo, or that, in addition to this, it's a reason to scumread Hectic for relying on it in his Elmo case?

Neither, I'm responding to 357, saying I'm not bad faith pushing

[gibus]

That's probably why I'm biased to think this was a bad faith push. Although I'm certain this is what scum would go for.

[Nauci]

So... you're explaining why you thought it was a bad faith push?

Do you still think it is?

[gibus]

So... you're explaining why you thought it was a bad faith push?

Do you still think it is?

No lol.
I'm explaining why Hectic's case on me isn't true, I'm not bad faith pushing.
But yes, I still think Hectic is scum

[Nauci]

Outside of that interaction with Hectic, why do you think he's scum?