Mafiascum.net

VOTE: Lunar Martian

Would like to go here. I need some time to process a few things

In post 374, petapan wrote:if he's town, there's a decent chance mafia just kill him overnight and we don't have to worry about figuring out his role. if he lives, tomorrow he should hard claim his specific role. if no one counter claims, either by claiming his role or an incompatible role from a different setup, the he's probably town.

That makes sense to me.
If we live in the world where BB is town and a role, are there any other risks to town besides them getting shot? I.e. can scum do something with the knowledge of their role (like identify specifically the other roles in the setup?) Is that something that we don't want? Does it benefit town to know the specific setup? Can we derive the mafia roles from knowing town roles? How important is it to town that we correctly know the roles of the mafia? I can probably do the math on this myself when I get a bit of time, but I'm assuming one of you just knows this.

With this question, I'm really asking someone to walk me through how mechanically optimal/ev- BB's play is assuming BB is what he just claimed. Additionally, are there any BB roles that this play would be better/worse with? Off the top of my head, I can't see a doctor doing this ever being EV+, and it feels like cop is too useful too. Never seen a mason played before, so not sure how that would factor in.

If we live in the world where BB is town and not a role, then...I think someone was suggesting a policy lynch. Is that because it causes chaos? Could result in a counter claim? Some other reason besides it seeming scummy?

Then theres the world where he BB mafia. That would be...some kind of play play. A lot of attention to call on yourself for not a ton of benefit, as I don't really think BB was getting elimmed today. Can someone tell me why a mafia might do something like this? I can't see a single reason, other than the fact that maybe it seems so stupid it can't be mafia? I'm still confused.

Also, I recognize that none of this is really pertinent, as the logic for not shooting BB today ever makes sense to me. Happy to redirect my attention to other possible votes. Still, I am curious.

Also, I'm noticing that I keep messing up my pronouns. I need to start defaulting to they. Sorry, everyone.

In post 327, BBmolla wrote:dude cmon you could have talked to me; you shouldn't pull this crap in a newbie game

I get the sense you want people to leave this for now, but I'll bite anyway.

Why was what BB did regarding pressuring Mr. Turtle to talk more or get voted "pulling this crap in a newbie game?" Is it somehow tryharding, or...something else? This whole interaction went right over my head, and I'm curious about it.

If you want to leave it till post game, that's fine too, but I feel like I'm missing why that would be an advanced strat or inhospitable to newbies or something.

In post 289, Mikul wrote:The new people seem to lack the confidence to bite down on a read and the ringers are trying to give them room to learn and develop reads. I don't see that leading anywhere other than more inactivity and scrambling for a kill

This and the previous comment are interesting, that the ringers/active posters are going to have to step in harder than they have been. There seems to be an implication that in a newbie game, the ringers taking too much of a role early takes away from the experience? I don't exactly know if I agree with that, I feel like a lot is happening, but also, I'm pretty active and engaged, so other newbies might have a different take.

So, I'm active, I'd call Illwei active, and we're both new (at least to this form). Obv. Mikul doesn't trust me to lead, but I think you might trust Illwei to take a bit of a commanding stance in day1 voting. If Illwei is willing to push an agenda, would the ringers be interested in following it?

In post 257, unwnd wrote:I will say it is a bit difficult not to, and my whole 'hey, we're spectulating too much' and 'not enough commitment' was basically a really polite way to say that I think our conversations right now while intriguing are not necessarily productive, I just didn't wanna discourage anyone lol

This seems related to Mikul's comments, and the comments from the active ringers (BB, Mikul, peta, unwin, not including safebet here just because he's less active right now, but p. sure they qualify as a ringer too) in general around the idea of:

Should ringers push agendas or not?

So, do people, especially newbies, have an opinion on this? Do we want ringers pushing agendas? Ringers, thoughts?

Personally, I think saying something along the lines of "hey, in my experience, Town wants to start committing to reads soon, otherwise things get messy towards the end of the day + it's hard to use the information from day1 in future days" doesn't seem problematic whatsoever. That's good, helpful advice. I certainly wasn't really thinking about the importance of clarifying and committing to reads early. I probably would have kept waffling (and frankly still am) for a few more days without that reminder.

In post 379, quiet wrote:

In post 327, BBmolla wrote:dude cmon you could have talked to me; you shouldn't pull this crap in a newbie game

I get the sense you want people to leave this for now, but I'll bite anyway.

Why was what BB did regarding pressuring Mr. Turtle to talk more or get voted "pulling this crap in a newbie game?" Is it somehow tryharding, or...something else? This whole interaction went right over my head, and I'm curious about it.

If you want to leave it till post game, that's fine too, but I feel like I'm missing why that would be an advanced strat or inhospitable to newbies or something.

my comment was specifically in regards to him soft-claiming his role early when getting voted. i don't think it's good play or sets a good precedent.

don't know if I said this, but I am unopposed if we go to Lunar instead, I reread his ISO today and was thoroughly underwhelmed.

im down to discuss my play tomorrow or post game, it really benefits town less for me to say more.

In post 378, quiet wrote:Also, I'm noticing that I keep messing up my pronouns. I need to start defaulting to they. Sorry, everyone.

In post 320, quiet wrote:Mr Turtle, I am doing my abject best to keep up my excitement for having you in this game, but I don't love your sus on me.

It would be fine if it was just the post you didn't like, but this:

In post 309, Mr Turtle wrote:Honestly, I can't tell the difference between towny and scummy behavior as most towny behavior can be faked. I guess that mafia tend to lurk and wagon more? Town are usually more confident, but then again confidence can be faked as well.

If you think that mafia tend to lurk and wagon, which of those two things have I been doing? And people have scumread me based on them thinking I'm faking being non-confident as an empathy play. Some towny players (Mikul) have sussed me for reasons that made me feel like they were town. Your sus did the opposite, and made me feel you were scummy for hopping on Mikul's sentiment.

Give me at least one other person you find suspicious.

You are right, you haven't been lurking nor wagoning (until you just voted me, at least). When I said "I guess that mafia tend to lurk and wagon more?", I was referring to the "classical scum" play. It was more of a "this is what scum is known for", hence the "I guess" and the question mark. Most players here are more advanced than that, though. In my original quote I also specified that most towny plays can be faked.
What makes you suspicious? It's a gut feeling mostly. I felt like your posting style changed throughout the game.
Another player I find suspicious? I'd probably choose Lunar Martian, also mostly a gut feeling. I'd need to backread their posts again, though.
As for the part on hopping on Mikul's sentiment. I'd much rather put everyone on null reads for now, because nothing seems to be standing out for me, nor have any PR's gotten any info yet. There's not much to go off of for me. But it wouldn't be that helpful if I answered all Mikul's questions with an "I don't know" or shrugged them off, now would it? I didn't find you suspicious because that's what Mikul did, else I might as well have copied Mikul's reasonings while I was at it. It's, as said before, more of a gut feeling. I know gut feelings aren't useful, but I don't have anything else to offer.

In post 322, petapan wrote:

In post 309, Mr Turtle wrote:I have played mafia and werewolf before. Most of the games I've played have been over Discord, which is a very different environment to here. The rest have been werewolf on a forum, that also have been very, very different from the games on here.
Honestly, I can't tell the difference between towny and scummy behavior as most towny behavior can be faked. I guess that mafia tend to lurk and wagon more? Town are usually more confident, but then again confidence can be faked as well.

how have the games you've played typically gone?

also, unrelated, but do you mind getting an avatar? it helps to make your posts stand out. click the "user control panel" link in the top left, the click the "profile" tab and the "edit avatar" link on the left.

In Discord games you typically type in one or two sentence posts. This means that there isn't as much significance on singular posts and backreading does not have the same importance as on the forum. Additionally, I've played or interacted with most players, so it gives me a sense of their playstyle and makes them easier to read.
The forum games usually added up to a thread of 7-10 pages. There were many less posts and, again, I pretty much knew everyone. There also wasn't a RVS. We just didn't eliminate anyon the first day phase, so the PR's could gain information. I usually posted once or twice per day phase.

In post 323, quiet wrote:Yeah, wait, re-reading that quote....
Mr Turtle, how is it that your description of mafia doesn't 100% match your playstyle so far? "Mafia tend to lurk and wagon more".

I'm not actually hard sus on your or anything, I just really don't like that post.

Fair point. Whilst I do not wagon, I lurk. But, I'd like to point out my explanation in the top of this post.

Mafiascum has a much more dayplay focused game, the power roles are there but the focus is not on them. We have a lot of games that don't even have power roles because there's very much a belief that scum can be found just by dayplay, and this has rang true throughout games on this site.

Even if day one the scum may have an easier time blending in, this facade becomes more and more difficult to keep up as the game goes further, because they have to keep their story of beliefs straight.

But keeping it all consistent is why your lack of posting bothers us so much Turtle, it gives no info on you any which way.

if you're having a hard time with reads, answer these for me:

• If the mod came out and confirmed Lunar Martian as scum, based on the interaction Lunar had with people today, who would be your first guess as to who their partner is?
  
• Is there anyone you find unlikely to be their partner?
  
• If there were mafia on your wagon (AKA, the people voting you), who is your best guess as to who it would be?

In post 386, BBmolla wrote:Mafiascum has a much more dayplay focused game, the power roles are there but the focus is not on them. We have a lot of games that don't even have power roles because there's very much a belief that scum can be found just by dayplay, and this has rang true throughout games on this site.

Even if day one the scum may have an easier time blending in, this facade becomes more and more difficult to keep up as the game goes further, because they have to keep their story of beliefs straight.

But keeping it all consistent is why your lack of posting bothers us so much Turtle

, it gives no info on you any which way.

if you're having a hard time with reads, answer these for me:

• If the mod came out and confirmed Lunar Martian as scum, based on the interaction Lunar had with people today, who would be your first guess as to who their partner is?
  
• Is there anyone you find unlikely to be their partner?
  
• If there were mafia on your wagon (AKA, the people voting you), who is your best guess as to who it would be?

• My first guess would be Quiet, since Lunar previously town-read them and I already have some suspicion on them.
  
• Well, you and Unwnd would unlikely be Lunar's partner, since Lunar voted you and Unwnd has voted Lunar just recently.
  
• As for mafia on my wagon, it'd likely be Safebet or Quiet (again). Quiet for aforemntioned reasons and Safebet for wagoning easily.

I don't really understand the part of your quote which I have colored red. Could you elaborate on that?

In post 387, Mr Turtle wrote:I don't really understand the part of your quote which I have colored red. Could you elaborate on that?

The less posts you have, the easier it is to keep your through-line in order if your mafia. Hence the "mafia lurk" stereotype.

But, even if you're town, it doesn't give us any sort of way to figure that out. I was jumping points that was my bad.

In post 384, BBmolla wrote:im down to discuss my play tomorrow or post game, it really benefits town less for me to say more.

yeah i've got it, didn't mean to belabor the issue but quiet asked so i felt the need to clarify for him.


As for Mr Turtle, i would just echo was BBmolla has said, the setups here tend to emphasize dayplay, which means the power roles are weaker overall. If you look back at the setup, there aren't many investigative roles, regardless of which configuration we are in. the general play every day is going to be to talk and eliminate someone, because eliminating someone is the only chance we have to get rid of mafia. if you're not familiar with it, it can be hard, but just try your best and don't be afraid to ask questions.

what i'm thinking now is that mr turtle looks unlikely to have a partner, and him being lost looks more symptomatic of a clueless townie who's on their own. at the least, he doesn't have an experienced partner, and given the way he accumulated votes so quickly for not a whole lot i'd say not many people make sense as a partner for him.

also, that avatar is adorable.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting much. I've been very busy and I'm out of town until Wednesday. I'll pick it up after that. I'm not posting much site-wide so please don't read too much into it.

lunar, i was looking at your completed game, and i saw you were a day 1 elimination in that game, which is unfortunate, but what i was noticing is that you were a lot more forthcoming with your opinions in that game, where here it's been a struggle to get you to say much of anything. why is that?

In post 380, quiet wrote:

In post 289, Mikul wrote:The new people seem to lack the confidence to bite down on a read and the ringers are trying to give them room to learn and develop reads. I don't see that leading anywhere other than more inactivity and scrambling for a kill

This and the previous comment are interesting, that the ringers/active posters are going to have to step in harder than they have been. There seems to be an implication that in a newbie game, the ringers taking too much of a role early takes away from the experience? I don't exactly know if I agree with that, I feel like a lot is happening, but also, I'm pretty active and engaged, so other newbies might have a different take.

So, I'm active, I'd call Illwei active, and we're both new (at least to this form). Obv. Mikul doesn't trust me to lead, but I think you might trust Illwei to take a bit of a commanding stance in day1 voting. If Illwei is willing to push an agenda, would the ringers be interested in following it?

In post 381, quiet wrote:

In post 257, unwnd wrote:I will say it is a bit difficult not to, and my whole 'hey, we're spectulating too much' and 'not enough commitment' was basically a really polite way to say that I think our conversations right now while intriguing are not necessarily productive, I just didn't wanna discourage anyone lol

This seems related to Mikul's comments, and the comments from the active ringers (BB, Mikul, peta, unwin, not including safebet here just because he's less active right now, but p. sure they qualify as a ringer too) in general around the idea of:

Should ringers push agendas or not?

So, do people, especially newbies, have an opinion on this? Do we want ringers pushing agendas? Ringers, thoughts?

Personally, I think saying something along the lines of "hey, in my experience, Town wants to start committing to reads soon, otherwise things get messy towards the end of the day + it's hard to use the information from day1 in future days" doesn't seem problematic whatsoever. That's good, helpful advice. I certainly wasn't really thinking about the importance of clarifying and committing to reads early. I probably would have kept waffling (and frankly still am) for a few more days without that reminder.

quiet, i like you, i appreciate the enthusiasm you've brought to the game, and i don't want to necessarily blunt your curiosity for all this theoretical stuff because i think it's a good thing. but i'm looking at all the words you're writing in your latest series of posts, and the question i come away with is "how does any of this help solve the game?". you're going on these long tangents asking theoretical questions about procedure, and even if somewhat pertinent, the way you're asking questions feels rather empty. what i get from your posts is the sense of someone who is talking for the sake of talking, so as to not get voted like mr turtle. what i do not get is the sense you are asking these questions to try to figure out who is mafia.

In post 389, petapan wrote:.
what i'm thinking now is that mr turtle looks unlikely to have a partner, and him being lost looks more symptomatic of a

clueless townie

who's on their own. at the least, he doesn't have an experienced partner, and given the way he accumulated votes so quickly for not a whole lot i'd say not many people make sense as a partner for him.

Have you ever played discord chat mafia?

If he's talking about the mafia.gg site, they are far from clueless. He needs to learn the meta at this site but if he can hang there he's not clueless.

At any rate.. Turtle is just always a policy elim, right? Almost always flipping town.

In post 393, safebet222 wrote:Have you ever played discord chat mafia?

If he's talking about the mafia.gg site, they are far from clueless. He needs to learn the meta at this site but if he can hang there he's not clueless.

At any rate.. Turtle is just always a policy elim, right? Almost always flipping town.

no, but i have a decent amount of chat mafia experience, and i know the type of player he seems to be, passive and wants to sit back and let the prs do things, because that's what they're used to. my point is that turtle here looks like someone who is on his own rather than someone who has someone helping them, and it doesn't even look like you disagree with that assessment.


i'd rather not policy vote a new player day 1 simply for low posting and being unfamiliar with the site meta. unproductive for the game and doesn't really help him, either. we end up in day 2 down a townie and everyone has the excuse that he needed to go anyway so no one is accountable for the vote. vote for a scumread.

I have no clue how to evaluate the first idea you have... I tend to agree with the second idea.

I have been trying to keep up with everything that has gone down in the last 24 hours or so, but it has been difficult.

Quiet has gone down in my opinion... But not enough to want to push him.

I don't feel like pushing unwnd anymore. It just doesn't feel right anymore.

I don't understand why illwei is not getting questioned for his low activity and his vote that hasn't moved once, but pushing there also feels gross.

We're always just pushing Lunar here, right?

VOTE: Lunar

That is E-1.

I have a way to maybe sort Illwei. I think this play makes sense.

Illwei, if you keep your vote on Lunar for 2 days, I Lunar. I’ve previously had my vote on Lunar, and don’t mind putting it back. Some of the arguments against a Mr. Turtle elim are satisfactory for now.

If Illwei doesn’t think that this is a good idea, I invite them to unvote before that time. If Illwei is willing to vote someone else, I’d be willing to vote the same person.

Lunar, do you have any compelling reasons why I should not take this course of action?

In post 392, petapan wrote:how does any of this help solve the game?

I think this is fair, and I can tone it down.

I do think at least some of the questions help solve the game. For example, tomorrow I’m excited to get the mechanics breakdown of BBmolas play. I think both the breakdown and the way people go about justifying or hating it might be telling. Also, it feels like some of y’all are playing with this mechanical information in your head. I don’t have it, so I have to ask.

Also, I do think that talking about the ringers/newbies thing helps solve the game. People have soft declared what they want their playstyle to be. I’d like that codified, so if it changes, that informs my position. Do ringers plan to be more passive or more controlling? What was the purpose of joining this game, and are newbies willing to step up and push agendas, cause if we’re not, ringers have no choice but to step in.

I’ll put a hold on all theoretical questions for the rest of day1, but given how long the days are, I’ll probably start them up again for the first few irl days of tmmrw. Unless everyone thinks I should save them for postgame-I’d love to get some feedback then. This has been super fun.

In post 132, unwnd wrote:BBMolla, was Lunar's (lack) of reaction a reaction to you? He seemed to completely ignore your pressure here.

Am trying to answer BBMola’s question about scum partners in a world where Lunar flips scum.

Would scum unwnd ever defend like this?