Mini Normal 2268 Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

no, you didn't, you repeatedly asserted that my read changed despite me calling you on it several times.

Receipts:

it's also not like I especially backed off on my Dwlee read, I realized one line of argument I had was a bit uncharitable (Dwlee was accused for what they would believe are NAI reasons yet gave a NAI defense as if it cleared them) but I'm still voting there, I still think Dwlee's a good vote

1. I dont TR you. I'm holidng back the TR on you, and I've been discussing it with other people.
2. I dont have any problem with you scumreading me despite me townreading you. I have a problem with you scumreading me and not voting me meanwhile you're voting Dwlee because "pressure" when you've provided doubt on their scumminess

I'm sorry, did the dictionary get updated when I wasn't looking so that "I'm leaning into GL town" (257) doesn't actually mean you are town-leaning me?

I doubted

one particular point

I made about Dwlee, I still altogether don't find any of their posts townie and that merits a scumread and a vote. and I have a policy of keeping my vote on the larger wagon even when I also scumread other players at the same time. because wagons are good for generating content and a smorgasbord of E-6 wagons are not.

he later reinforces that he finds Dwlee still scummy for these reasons, backtracking on his progress on the slot

How is it "progress" when Dwlee literally has not posted at all

Ive had nothing new to reevaluate them on

And again, I was rethinking ONE PARTICULAR POINT I MADE, not the whole read

Look at the quote you JUST posted. I said "ehhh actually I'm thinking about this more and I'm not sure it's an especially great point" and "I do think you're being defensive but that might be more of a personality trait here" - neither of these constitutes an actual

read

backtrack. It was me trying to be fair to Dwlee and give them a bit more of an olive branch engagement than a hostile one.

[GuiltyLion]

i dont know if GuiltyLion is the type of scum who would back off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality

I would absolutely do this as scum, just so you know

So when did you realize you hadn't done the thing HEM said you did? Cause it seems here that to were saying you did do it but now you're saying you didn't do it and I don't see following posts going "wait I didn't do that"

at the time he first posted 134, I thought he understood that I was dialing back that specific point against you, and that he understood I was still voting/wanting to sort you.

Then later he starts reframing it as if my read itself had evolved or changed

[humaneatingmonkey]

wasnt your whole read

[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13224946]my read is all about the tepid RVS vote and the defensive response to being called frozen.

[humaneatingmonkey]

can we 1v1 later im nearing deadline hahahaha

[GuiltyLion]

yes, I do not like the defensive response to being called frozen. I realized that the rush to post about IRL in response may just be a personality thing, but I still don't like it, want more engagement from Dwlee, and at no point did that evolve into me townreading Dwlee or not wanting a wagon there

[GuiltyLion]

can we 1v1 later im nearing deadline hahahaha

are we 1v1ing? I thought it wasn't possible to engage with you if I'm not voting you. I thought I was trying to deescalate

[humaneatingmonkey]

you decided to switch gears just earlier, when you said "CONSIDER IT ESCALATED" so yeah

[GuiltyLion]

alright, cool, so we agree that "he didn't vote me so therefore he doesn't want to/can't engage with/fight with me" was garbage reasoning. just wanted to make that explicit

[humaneatingmonkey]

yes it's garbage reasoning but that's not the reasoning at all

[humaneatingmonkey]

time out

[GuiltyLion]

meanwhile, he scumreads me but refuses to do more with my slot than slinging questions on my alignment. why? because he still wants to pressure his nullread Dwlee (whose wagon has fizzled out). why won't he pressure the scum that — in his town!POV — dragging his town name to the ground and engaging him right to his face? the answer is he's not town, and he's trying hard not to escalate.

[humaneatingmonkey]

nice strawman though

[humaneatingmonkey]

thanks for quoting. yes that's my read.

[marcistar]

ur both dumb, whens the kiss and make up era

[GuiltyLion]

meanwhile, he scumreads me but refuses to do more with my slot than slinging questions on my alignment. why? because he still wants to pressure his nullread Dwlee (whose wagon has fizzled out). why won't he pressure the scum that — in his town!POV — dragging his town name to the ground and engaging him right to his face? the answer is he's not town, and he's trying hard not to escalate.

alright, cool, so we agree that "he didn't vote me so therefore he doesn't want to/can't engage with/fight with me" was garbage reasoning. just wanted to make that explicit

yes it's garbage reasoning but that's not the reasoning at all

what am I strawmanning here??? are you reading these posts?

[Dwlee99]

i dont know if GuiltyLion is the type of scum who would back off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality

I would absolutely do this as scum, just so you know

GL you wouldn't repeat the goats bussing play from white flag with me in the game would you

[Dwlee99]

Why did that quote again? Anyway — this fight seems like theater

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not gonna lie, I

would

if I were scum, because I think the primary goal of scum should be to effectively mask who their buddies are, and it worked quite well in that game

but I'm not scum here, so I'm not doing that

[GuiltyLion]

Why did that quote again? Anyway — this fight seems like theater

what in your mind makes it theater rather than a real fight

[Dwlee99]

I think it's theater because I feel like there's elements of both of you getting twisted into a pretzel on what angles you're trying to take

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like there's elements of both of you getting twisted into a pretzel on what angles you're trying to take

hmmm

I don't think you're wrong about pretzel twisting happening, but I don't know if I think that's something that only comes from scum

and if your issue with me is the question in 372, I feel like my 375 answered that but I'll try to unknot the pretzel

1. I posted 93 where I thought more about my point about posting NAI defense to a (presumably) NAI accusation, and realized it was a bit uncharitable, because town!Dwlee out with friends is capable of posting "I'm out with friends"

2. HEM says I "back[ed] off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality" in 134. (

also, interesting to note that HEM says that the wagon was GAINING steam at the time of my 93 here, when he's since later said it fizzled out by then

). At the time I didn't question this and wasn't especially bothered by it, because I thought I understood "backing off" to mean something closer to (what I see as) offering an olive branch to you or dialing back one point that I made, rather than a reversal of a read.

3. HEM then later asserts that it was a "behind-the-scenes read change for a wagon that's gaining steam" (257), and at this point I realize he's saying that I actually

changed my read

rather than

backed off

. Which prompts me to

4. Point out that I don't like him saying I "backed off on my read", because I was still voting you and still suspecting you 263

still a pretzel?

[GuiltyLion]

And your point on re-evaluating slightly on Dwlee is not bad, except I haven't moved my vote off of Dwlee so I don't know why you're putting stock into it when my actions don't support a definitive re-evaluation there.

here's another post I forgot to quote earlier where I make the same point, too

[GuiltyLion]

I think semantically there was never a clear agreed-upon definition of "backing off" vs "changing reads" and so I have probably not been precise with my language or what specifically I am understanding it to mean, and neither has HEM, and that may contribute to the pretzel feeling of that particular argument or even us full on misunderstanding each other.

but I also think throughout I've been consistent on the actual stance that despite me being less sure/weakening that point about posting a NAI defense as if it makes you town, at no point did that constitute a significant evolution in me no longer wanting to vote/pressure you, and at times HEM has claimed that it was, which I have rebuffed consistently every time.

[GuiltyLion]

Somebody mentioned earlier that Dwlee is good about self-image stuff as town and I agree there. Dwlee's town and scum play isn't quite night and day, but I feel that they could've easily handled it better if they were scum.

dwlee is very good at image management. i dont buy that as scum, he blunders immediately in koba's hood when koba jokes about being traitor and here when he immediately picks a fight with Koba, Testarossa and you.

Dwlee, I am curious for your thoughts on this argument

Do you agree with this? Is it a good reason to townread you?

[Dwlee99]

Less pretzel? There was something I noticed but I need to find it again