AP feels like anyone reading his posts today would know why he said he was ok with both wagons. He's scumreading both of you.
He feels like you've started mirroring back my feelings about the game at me, and he thinks you could be doing it intentionally.
I dunno. I feel like there was real frustration and anger in your posts, whatever the motivation.
If he thinks I can mirror back someone's feelings about a game, he's ascribing far more to my level of scum play than I normally play at. I get that AP is scumreading both me and Nacho but I don't as town look at two wagons forming with both players scumreading each other and decide "yep, both scum." When my scumreads mutually push each other, the first thought in my mind would be that I was wrong somewhere. This doesn't apply if I'm in a massive confbias tunnel (like Tales of You) which AP doesn't seem to be in.
My frustration was a reminder of how Ceph and DV pulled the victim card when I was about to get them lynched. I'm the leading wagon and I don't understand why everytime I push you, you go into "we're going to flip, I hope it bites you hard" rather than see that I'm the one about to get lynched. If you are town, then I appreciate that you are trying to re-evaluate things and make sure you get it right. But it contrasts with AP's stance where he literally called for a 1v1. I can see the scum benefit in your stance (you keeping your hands clean, AP ensuring that a lynch actually does go through). I can maybe see the town motivation for your actions - which is just as you say they are: AP being sure and you being unsure, but I would hope that you can come to an actual consensus.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:21 pm
by Murder of Crows
I stood aside and backed off to think and wonder if I was wrong about medea yesterday and they got lynched while I navel gazed.
I may not be able to stop the bodhi saatva's wagon but I oppose it and I'm saying right here and now that I expect they'll flip town.
bodhi saatva. MS. Anti. I will not vote there today.
Egg, I have niggles about. AP feels they're town. Mostly I do too.
I'd fucking hate losing to scum-boons. His play has been atrocious.
If you're town, and my top 3 are town, then it's egg and boon? Does that make any sort of sense?
Would like to hear from Nacho and Skrew.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:24 pm
by F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Oh, that reminds me: one of the reasons I hoped you would understand my townread on Antihero is Serum and Steel. Everyone was convinced CN and Pander Bears were scum at some point and they were defending each other which led to people thinking they were scum together. A similar thing started happening here and I was able to immediately identify with Antihero in a way that I don't think is me being manipulated. It was the same in Tales with JSU - I just
knew
that they won't flip scum no matter what. Sure, scum have fooled me sometimes but that feeling is never there. There's always a bit of hesitancy and paranoia.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:25 pm
by F-16_Fighting_Falcon
* The feeling I'm referring to is the "there's no way this player is scum and that's never going to change" feeling.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:31 pm
by Murder of Crows
You thought I would get the same sense from Anti as you?
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:33 pm
by serrapaladin
@mod: can a town universal backup become a PT previously held by scum?
VOTE: egg
This, to me, really is the lynchpin for this game (pun intended).
If scum, that thing by Mara will really make me lose respect for her, but I guess I'm willing to risk this game on the fact that she's not.
There was this game a while ago with ffery as SK, and me and regfan as town, in which I wasn't particular verbose, but I think my reads were decent. I'm surprised I haven't seen that game referenced. It seems as though I've convinced AP, on a logical and mostly setup-based level, that egg must be scum, but he seems to be avoiding that vote. I could definitely see egg's buddy avoiding the bus ATM, if they think they wouldn't win it alone.
I don't know if it was ffery or AP that said my reads aren't valid because I haven't engaged with the game enough, but if it's ffery, she should really know that I don't get good reads by walling at people. I have no doubt that f16 and the crows would be able to produce their sequence of walls aimed at each other as either alignment...
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:33 pm
by F-16_Fighting_Falcon
↑Murder of Crows wrote:I stood aside and backed off to think and wonder if I was wrong about medea yesterday and they got lynched while I navel gazed.
I may not be able to stop the bodhi saatva's wagon but I oppose it and I'm saying right here and now that I expect they'll flip town.
bodhi saatva. MS. Anti. I will not vote there today.
Egg, I have niggles about. AP feels they're town. Mostly I do too.
I'd fucking hate losing to scum-boons. His play has been atrocious.
If you're town, and my top 3 are town, then it's egg and boon? Does that make any sort of sense?
Would like to hear from Nacho and Skrew.
Not really, no. As long as we are right about there being a mafia strongman, I doubt it is Boon and Egg. The only possibility I could see maybe is that Egg is some sort of a JOAT who has a roleblock as well as a strong kill. It is possible but I'm thinking it is more likely that he's a goon. I guess Anatole could have vigged Yonce or Egg is actually not a roleblocker and came up with the claim as a creative way to stall his lynch D3 but it is speculation that's out there. It is possible that Boon is a scum goon but he's likely not a strongman.
Also, I remember you saying that you as town would go to any lengths to stop a wagon on town-Nacho while you may not as scum. Why do you feel that you would be unable to stop it here (and I'm asking for a deeper answer than we don't have the gravitas to do it)?
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:46 pm
by Egg
You guys realize my role is semi provable right?
And as scum, I'd have been blocking Boon.
Like the scum JOAT argument is the first decent one I've heard all game.
I mean I hate the idea of blocking town power just to prove my role, but I could do it instead of being lynched
Or is it better for me to be lynched instead of living to LYLO and getting lynched there?
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:47 pm
by Egg
Serra, do you have any reasons why I'm scum? Just like Metal, I haven't seen much from you about it except rhetoric.
↑Murder of Crows wrote:I stood aside and backed off to think and wonder if I was wrong about medea yesterday and they got lynched while I navel gazed.
I may not be able to stop the bodhi saatva's wagon but I oppose it and I'm saying right here and now that I expect they'll flip town.
bodhi saatva. MS. Anti. I will not vote there today.
Egg, I have niggles about. AP feels they're town. Mostly I do too.
I'd fucking hate losing to scum-boons. His play has been atrocious.
If you're town, and my top 3 are town, then it's egg and boon? Does that make any sort of sense?
Would like to hear from Nacho and Skrew.
Not really, no. As long as we are right about there being a mafia strongman, I doubt it is Boon and Egg. The only possibility I could see maybe is that Egg is some sort of a JOAT who has a roleblock as well as a strong kill. It is possible but I'm thinking it is more likely that he's a goon. I guess Anatole could have vigged Yonce or Egg is actually not a roleblocker and came up with the claim as a creative way to stall his lynch D3 but it is speculation that's out there. It is possible that Boon is a scum goon but he's likely not a strongman.
Also, I remember you saying that you as town would go to any lengths to stop a wagon on town-Nacho while you may not as scum. Why do you feel that you would be unable to stop it here (and I'm asking for a deeper answer than we don't have the gravitas to do it)?
I don't really have a deeper answer. It should be clear that I'd prefer my own lynch over theirs if it comes to that. I think Nacho could solve this mess if he gets a decent chunk of time.
What actually happens in this hydra won't go to that extreme because AP and I have to find stances we can both live with and hopefully both fully agree on.
@mod: can a town universal backup become a PT previously held by scum?
VOTE: egg
This, to me, really is the lynchpin for this game (pun intended).
If scum, that thing by Mara will really make me lose respect for her, but I guess I'm willing to risk this game on the fact that she's not.
There was this game a while ago with ffery as SK, and me and regfan as town, in which I wasn't particular verbose, but I think my reads were decent. I'm surprised I haven't seen that game referenced. It seems as though I've convinced AP, on a logical and mostly setup-based level, that egg must be scum, but he seems to be avoiding that vote. I could definitely see egg's buddy avoiding the bus ATM, if they think they wouldn't win it alone.
I don't know if it was ffery or AP that said my reads aren't valid because I haven't engaged with the game enough, but if it's ffery, she should really know that I don't get good reads by walling at people. I have no doubt that f16 and the crows would be able to produce their sequence of walls aimed at each other as either alignment...
I don't remember saying that.
Your reads were decent, and you were considerably more verbose. You went off and did meta research on Naomi Tan and made a town case on her that arguably prevented her mislynch. It doesn't have to be walling AT people to be effective.
Even though you thought I was scum in that game, you did reach out and try to get me to put content in the game. Which I did. I convinced myself that Elyse' hydra wasn't scum and made a meta case for her play being well within the town range of her play. I didn't pour my heart into preventing her mislynch for obvious reasons, but I did try to look elsewhere that day for actual scum.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:02 pm
by F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Actually here's previous Ffery/Regfan meta experience besides Mini 1516: Mini 1469: Rage. Going to take a glance through it in a bit. I think it was forgotten.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:02 pm
by Murder of Crows
Actually I remember meta-ing Naomi. Maybe we both did.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:05 pm
by Murder of Crows
↑F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Actually here's previous Ffery/Regfan meta experience besides Mini 1516: Mini 1469: Rage. Going to take a glance through it in a bit. I think it was forgotten.
You know, I didn't know who he was or anything about him in that game. The first game where I was aware of him/his reputation was the FE:A large theme. IIRC he replaced into the game after I was dead. he and zmuffin were in the RiftXChesskid family neighborhood.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:09 pm
by Murder of Crows
AP really disagrees with wagoning Egg today. Add him to the won't vote list.
I think the strength of his egg read is part of why he thinks Nacho's scum.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:56 pm
by Murder of Crows
↑Murder of Crows wrote:You thought I would get the same sense from Anti as you?
I still want to talk about this. I don't remember you indicating that this read had JSU level significance to you. How was I supposed to pick up on this? Or, like I said, did you expect me to get the same sense from Anti?
Because he and I haven't played together nearly enough games for me to get that level of certainty from his play here. And, I've never played a game where he was scum. That's a significant meta gap to bridge.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:28 pm
by Murder of Crows
↑serrapaladin wrote:It seems as though I've convinced AP, on a logical and mostly setup-based level, that egg must be scum, but he seems to be avoiding that vote.
I don't know why you think this. I flatout said that scum could be in the VTs and that would be plausible. I also said that I disagree with Egg's decisions but that doesnt make him scum.
@mod: can a town universal backup become a PT previously held by scum?
The Universal Backup cannot become a PT of any kind. I'm not sure how that's possible. If you're asking about a scum PR, though, then yes they could.
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:41 am
by serrapaladin
I'm confident there's scum between boon and egg.
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:50 am
by Murder of Crows
f-16 I don't feel like this is going anywhere.
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:21 am
by F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Okay then. May the best man (or woman) win this battle to the death. I'll have no hard feelings if you manage to mislynch me and I will be impressed that you've stepped up your scumgame and are getting your mojo back, so don't even think about pulling your punches.
Egg is the only other person I'm willing to lynch today - and that only if an actual wagon forms on him and he's viable.
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:37 am
by F-16_Fighting_Falcon
I would make a case but Regfan has outlined it beautifully here and I don't want to sound repetitive as I found a lot of similar things scummy.
Spoiler: Murder Case
↑Regfan wrote:So, here's why MoC's scum and why we're lynching them today:
1) Found the entrance in Post 10 to be forced and exaggerated, AP later attempting to slip in a statement that he would 'never' make that post as scum in Post 623 reads as ridiculously disingenuous especially since he's not one to shy away from 'attention' as scum.
2) Reaction towards being FoS'ed in Post 224 / Post 225 / Post 243 / Post 614 don't read natural at all and comes across as very manipulative; little to no reason to attempt to manipulate the IC as town whereas scum have plenty. Didn't like their posts directed at Cabd at end of D1 specifically Post 649 and Post 674 which looks like an attempt to get 'town read' and also as F-16 pointed out play the fear card (which is something F-16 actually did to me last game and I almost bought it), reaction to F-16 more recently is similarly bad. MoCs Post 874 andPost 879 look really fake, with 30 minutes to go and the closest they ever got to a lynch I'd expect Town!Them to be more frantic about just getting a lynch in, attempting to play the "When we flip town" while doing near nothing to get a lynch in looks like an attempt to get town-cred while simultaneously not helping the town at all.
3) Reasoning behind the town read on Riddelton in Post 344 is lynchworthy alone, town reading someone as you don't believe scum would push something they know is "fake" makes no sense because almost everything scum push is 'fake'. I don't see an experienced player like Ffyer or AP coming up with or using logic this insanely weak as town, fact that this happens to be on the other person I'm scum-reading here strengthens this and makes Riddleton-MoC a likely team.
4) This is probably one of the larger ones but throughout the entire game (And especially when they were suspected) they set themselves up to be able to vote just about anyone, you can see Antihero set up in Post 442, Egg in Post 501, Bass in Post 504 also agree with Anti massively when he says their turn around on him does not flow at all, reasoning in Post 521 really contradicts Post 442, there's a lot more instances of her setting up to vote on weaker players and the while the culmination of them is damning I think the context of these ones are more crucial. If you take a look at Post 561 for instance their "Left" pool is pretty much solely players that either a) Scum read them or b) Are weaker easier players to push. The throw down vote on Egg purely as a "PoE scum read" after their entire reads list also reads as scummy and points against them legitimately scumhunting.
5) The FoS and "If you lynch us you should really look at lynching this D2" in Post 649 about Yonce who had replaced their somehow "strong town read" of Riddleton looks ridiculously scummy especially given the lack of follow up on this by them, until I replaced in they were putting near no focus on Yonce and even now their focus is minimal, there's no real attempt to get a read on him or natural progression in their read on him.
6) The fact that almost the entire playerlist FoS'ed MoC yesterday but they never got past L-3 in the entire day phase heavily points towards them being scum, partners wanting to distance but no buss; if they're town I'd have expected them to at minimum have been put to L-2/L-1 and forced to claim.
Vote: MoC
Reads on Jesus / Isott will come shortly or if I pass out tomorrow evening.
Adding on to that:
1) Ffery's interaction with me never felt like she was trying to sort me.
2) Their hydra's stance on Jesus makes literally no sense. Ffery townreads Nacho but is willing to let him get lynched. AP scumreads him.
Town-Ffery has admitted in the past that she would go to any lengths to derail a town-Nacho's lynch while scum-Ffery wouldn't.
3) They've been caught scum since early D1 and wagons were diverted off of them multiple times (including the no-lynch D1) through the entire damn game and we're now close to LYLO.
4) Egg and Murder fit perfectly as scum-partners with Egg having Murder in his POE pool yet refusing to vote them when the time came while he creates yet more unlikely scenarios to rescind his scum read.
