Mini Normal 1983: Winter Wonderland [Endgame!]

[Firebringer]

I’m not going to sit here in argue with you when you are just going to just talk this topic to death.

I am also frankly not going to read ur posts.

[mastina]

I’m not going to sit here in argue with you when you are just going to just talk this topic to death.

I mean, that's your choice, but I've given my arguments for why the setup wasn't townsided and also my counters to the arguments you provided for why it is, so if you leave them unaddressed that's your decision but I maintain my stance.

The game was swingy as fuck.
It was still reasonably close to the balance mark. (And if it leaned in any way I'd argue it towards scumsided. I expressed concern about the mafia having the universal backup in review for much this reason.)

[Firebringer]

Frankly I don’t even know if you gave a rebuttal.

Probably just repeated ur exact same arguments and called it a rebuttal

[Mulch]

1) why did you respond to 1 sentence of my argument of 10 sentences
2) why do you keep acting like scum could stop the watcher and the cop at the same time
3) fire is right

[mastina]

1) why did you respond to 1 sentence of my argument of 10 sentences

Because the nine sentences which followed were off of the faulty premise of the first sentence and if responding to the first sentence automatically invalidates the following nine (it did), then no fucking shit that's what I'm going to do.

2) why do you keep acting like scum could stop the watcher and the cop at the same time

I don't. Why do you keep acting like scum could only stop the watcher when they could use their role in another way?

[sheepsaysmeep]

in what way would either of you benefit from winning this argument

[Not_Mafia]

Winning is its own benefit

[RadiantCowbells]

man I really think this setup is balanced in the current meta run as a closed setup.

[BuJaber]

I’m not going to sit here in argue with you when you are just going to just talk this topic to death.

I mean, that's your choice, but I've given my arguments for why the setup wasn't townsided and also my counters to the arguments you provided for why it is, so if you leave them unaddressed that's your decision but I maintain my stance.

The game was swingy as fuck.
It was still reasonably close to the balance mark. (And if it leaned in any way I'd argue it towards scumsided. I expressed concern about the mafia having the universal backup in review for much this reason.)

Is the review thread publicaly accessible?

[mastina]

Is the review thread publicaly accessible?

Not currently. I believe Nexus still makes them public after a while, though I could be mistaken and even if not I wouldn't know when exactly he'd do so.

[mhsmith0]

On my lazy two minute thinking about it look, I'd say it's townsided but not horrifically so. Last I bothered compiling stats, 10/3 mini normal towns were 61-98, 38% win rate (no, that's not a typo)

This setup is imo substantially more town-friendly than the norm (but again, the norm is in the 40% win rate, which is too low for comfort), but even given that, I'd probably give standard mini normal town no higher than a 60% chance of winning, and would probably be fine WAG'ing it at more like 55%. The asceticizer is reasonably good against the cop or watcher, but while both live it can't really defend against both, and it's completely helpless against the vig roles, and even shitty vig shots delivered to VT's instead of other PR's makes this a fairly difficult game for scum as it goes late.

Part of that is that two of town's power roles are completely ungated, and the vig pair is semi-gated (i.e. if either lives a while they can just keep shooting).

I'd have said turning the cop into a gunsmith is probably appropriate, or alternatively turning the asceticizer into a roleblocker (and maaaybe turning the goon into an ascetic?). But neither of those would have been a monumental overhaul of the setup in terms of pwoer distribution.

And, while you never want to just point to results as necessarily being indicative of process, the fact remains that the scum team swept. It's neither the first time, nor the last time, that a seemingly townsided setup led to a scum curbstomp. For better and/or worse, that's simply part of the meta *shrugs*

Or to put it another way, to win this scum needed 3/4:

1) avoid early scum lynch
2) have one town PR die at town's hands, either from lynch or (better given lower info) a vig shot
3) mainly shoot PRs at night
4) have vigs not hit scum at night

They got 4/4, and so they swept.

[sheepsaysmeep]

omg you nerds

[mastina]

Funnily enough I did in fact suggest a Gunsmith in place of the cop.

Not that it'd have made a difference tho.

[Nexus]

To nominate this game and any players or mods in it, please see the Scummies nomination thread.