Mafiascum.net

I'll be here later promise <3

↑ pistachi0n wrote:

↑ True Ogre wrote:I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

What would I be lying about, though, if you're a flavor cop?

I was wondering if you were a flavor cop because my flavor is Roxie Hart from Chicago who did in fact kill people, your claim is a little less believable hearing you had no result.

Umm. It seems clear that he assumed you were an ascetic of some sort. Very strange for an ascetic to fake claim miller though. The conclusion he drew doesn't really fit with the information? Can you explain your thought process, True Ogre, in a way that makes more sense to me at least?

↑ pistachi0n wrote:

↑ True Ogre wrote:I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

What would I be lying about, though, if you're a flavor cop?

I was wondering if you were a flavor cop because my flavor is Roxie Hart from Chicago who did in fact kill people, your claim is a little less believable hearing you had no result.

My cop wouldn't give me your role name, just the musical you're in.

Ultimately I decided on you in an attempt to use the role to clear (or damn) you because you'd refused to claim flavour and you were unconfirmable by normal means. I had a few other ideas (ie Tammy, TWL, Piper) but decided this wasn't a role that was going to be used like a normal investigative. Had I gotten a result on you I would have crumbed it but not said anything. However given there was no result and there were two kills I thought that maybe you were an SK with a 1-shot ninja (thinking about that later I'm not sure if that actually works against a role cop) or that scum had some kind of protective effect. I just thought it really, really unlikely that I'd be roleblocked or jailkept given I hadn't crumbed anything and hadn't been playing like a PR.

↑ Cerberus v666 wrote:Umm. It seems clear that he assumed you were an ascetic of some sort. Very strange for an ascetic to fake claim miller though. The conclusion he drew doesn't really fit with the information? Can you explain your thought process, True Ogre, in a way that makes more sense to me at least?

Not in a way that's going to wrap it up in a nice neat package for you, Cerb.

↑ davesaz wrote:

↑ itlepip wrote:Well guess they did

Were you expecting Ogre to have a result?

I also want to know this now.

↑ tictac wrote:I'm conflicted about Cake again.

podo & Seniors look like good candidates.

Can you talk about your read on Cakes?

podo is bunny level town.

↑ Axelrod wrote:The vote is for Friendless Seniors, so where is the "Axel would be a better vote" advice coming from? With no mention of FS at all?

Cakes isn't interested in voting Seniors, so advising him to vote Seniors will do nothing. There are more than two scum in this game, and you're a decent candidate for Seniors' buddy.

Axel, the main problem I'm having with your play is that you do all of this analysis but you don't seem to get anything out of it. Can you talk about how the work you've done this game (Analyising the Ranger wagon, analysing the Skybird wagon, whatever other major projects you took on) affected your reads? Because it feels like you start with the premise that a, b, and c are scum and d, e, and f are town, and then you do some work, and after the work you still feel that a, b, and c are scum, and d, e, and f are town. Talk to me about a few players that you care about and how your read on them has evolved over the course of the game in response to new information.

↑ Dwlee99 wrote:

↑ True Ogre wrote:

↑ Dwlee99 wrote:Ok so no, this seniors wagon is trash.
Tictac called marquis scum for their.skybird push, let's lynch them tyvm

Why are you so confident that Seniors is town?

the interactions I've had w/ them

For example?

↑ davesaz wrote:If anything, Axel's observation points to those two (Friendless Seniors and SirCakez) being scum. Skybird was being most careful to do things to get herself townread. She appears to have wanted to avoid getting on the wrong side of anyone who would be townread by a majority. Kingmaking Tammy (or trying to) was going to be her path to near conftown status, it certainly had me fooled. I think it's likely that her votes would be on partners for two reasons, both to avoid antagonizing town and to distance from partners.

Not saying both of them are definitely scum because of it, but I think they should stay in the pool.

This makes a lot of sense. I have cases written on both of them in my hydra PT but we think Seniors is more likely.

↑ podoboq wrote:I agree that this alone wouldn't exonerate FS, but it definitely is a point in favor of town if confscum was voting for you at a point when you were a real threat to get lynched.

In the last game that I modded, there was a moment when the entire scumteam was at L-1, and the goon was bussing the roleblocker. "I should vote my partner so that people don't think we're scum together" is a thought that a lot of people have when they are scum, and being willing to vote a partner who might actually get lynched is only one step above that, especially when the partner has a useless role like wig vendor and is under a lot of suspicion.

↑ itlepip wrote:I almost want to lynch that slot just for the information b/c its so juicy.

lol, not happening.

I had some replies to Seniors mixed in here but it's long so i'm breaking this up into two posts.

bloopbloopbloop guess I am going to find some posts

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Dwlee slot = town

Cerb slot moves down. He seems to be hella trying to take advantage of Dwlee here. I'm sorry. Fucking cerbs case is "ranger thought it"? Bullshit. This isn't town cerb.

Let's Lynch Piper.

Pip, axel etc, the important thing here is that your case seems to be based on skubird not playing well. Honestly, your points are irrelevant to alignment. Town fucks up too.

Vote actual scummy person Piper, please? Not just mislynch bait.

↑ Dwlee99 wrote:

↑ itlepip wrote:Why are you presuming that Mir is town here?

I'm trying to take an objective stance on mirhawk and think everything through, you guys are the ones presuming he is scum (aka confirmation bias)

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:
Vote actual scummy person Piper, please?

^ this

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Dwlee is 100% right. People forget scumreada all the time. Shit happens. Cerb knows that, and him pushing this angle is ridiculous. Same with Nacho (IMO top 10 scumhujters on site), Plotinus (spectacular)

These people pushing a case this bad is just plain scummy.

↑ The Pied Piper wrote:Who am I pushing for forgetting something?

↑ Dwlee99 wrote:hiplop are you buddying me

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Idgaf about you

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Skybird.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Dwlee, if anything I'm buddying skybird. You happen to be on the right track

Also something something beetlejuice re:pipers

↑ Dwlee99 wrote:i didnt understand those first two posts but the third one made sense!
also true about the beetlejuice thing.

So I see your conversation there but why does Seniors saying you're town with no reason, and then saying he doesn't give a fuck about you make him town?

The familiarity there is suspicious. Have you played together before?

(By the way I play mostly Isaac and Civ 4 on PC, sometimes Hearthstone - but all games which basically could be run on a phone CPU o.o)

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Hi, it's EP.
Hiplop sent me some really nice words that basically made me choose to stay in this game and give it the ol college try (i have no idea if that expression is accurate)
Considering that this is likely going to be my last game for a while, i'll do my best, okay?
Expect me to start reading and rereading by this evening.

I'm really glad to hear this and I'm really sorry you're scum in this game and I saw your end game comment in Marquis game and it made me so sad but I've been there myself before a few times and taking breaks helped and I hope things get better for you and I just really wish we could've been town together.


Errant, I've followed some of your games loosely but I haven't had the time to really read them in a scumhunting sort of way. I was following space invaders a bit but I was skimming very very lightly and I was following Midsummer night's dream but all of my reads were wrong except for some of my townreads (snarky and ari were really obvious masons and absinthe was really obvtown too). I haven't followed your games in enough detail to be able to make pronouncements about what is alignment indicative for you or not and I haven't made a project of finding tells for you like I have with some other players because projects take time and I haven't had it yet. I'm aware that we are both competing for Don Corleone this year and that you've grown a lot as a player since History.

Sometimes a scum player busses and sometimes they don't. It's not good scumplay to always bus or never bus. It's good scumplay to do what people aren't expecting you to do. In History, I gleefully townread you and KT/pignash even though KT/pignash wasn't all that town, and even when Kt/pignash was modkilled and I was expecting some backlash for hardtownreading them but I got away with it. In Handwriting, I replaced in and immediately offered puppy pictures to anyone who would vote for my buddy, and when he self voted, I posted a cute puppy picture and thanked him for bussing himself.

I don't think you're incapable of bussing as scum. I think you made a strategic decision not to do so in this particular instance and it backfired.


it's actually kind of irritating that a lot of the things your slot has accused us of doing is stuff that you guys have done yourselves because I don't think hypocrisy is a scumtell; I think it's a humantell. But for example when we were trying to lynch Skybird yesterday, hiplop accused us of drooling for a lynch when I could quote plenty of posts from hiplop drooling for Ranger's lynch on day 1 (1839, 1842, 1865, 1870, 1874, 2304). Hiplop accused Nacho of clumsy wagon handling with regards to the pistachi0n wagon when Nacho unvoted to allow himself time to catch up with the thread knowing only that there was a guilty on pistachi0n and that days with guilties tend to go quickly, but your own wagon handling with Skybird was also clumsy.

You guys have explained away people's issues with your reads progression on various slots as hydra dissonance but I can tell you guys apart pretty well and I have trouble with both of your reads progressions independently on several slots so the dissonance isn't it.

You use real life to excuse your behaviour and I believe that you have real life going on but you ignore signs from our slot that we also have real life going on and attack us during times when we're telegraphing that real life is affecting our play, acting impatient with us when we weren't able to be as responsive as you'd like, ignoring that we've been trying to give you guys space all game because we were picking up on real life tells from you guys. And I don't want to air my dirty laundry in the thread and talk about what's going on with me, and you shouldn't have to either. I believe you've got serious shit going on. So do I. It's not alignment indicative. We just have to all do the best we can. I really wish you were town. I wanted you to be town.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:glad to see you bb

Also, like, if I was scum I would totally fucking say I sent it to someone who got nightkilled or something. Not sending it in gives us a shit ton of unnecessary attention (as you can fucking see this round)

it makes NO SENSE.

That would've been just as suspicious tbh.



Some other posts that stood out to me:

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Marquis weird townread of TWL makes no sense. TWL EVEN IF TOWN has played very poorly, marquis' weird defense is just plain bad.

I really, really think TWL is scum

This is what scum being deprived of a mislynch for reasons they don't understand looks like. I saw it in the blitz when Ranger and I were townreading people that scum wanted to mislynch.


In the middle of defending Skybird from being "mislynched":

↑ itlepip wrote:The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Itlepip, describe the cases on those two slots and why they are "weak AF"

These posts come right in the middle of insisting that Skybird is town but hiplop is attacking itlepip for saying that the cases on Skybird and Us are weak. It looks like hiplop was hoping itlepip would take a stance on Skybird that made him look bad after Skybird flipped scum and this doesn't make sense of hiplop was townreading Skybird at the time.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:ew wtf. how are you townreading TICTAC?

are you kidding me? Being unsure, okay I agree, I can see that. Tictac as...town? ludicrous. You don't understand the actual tone of this game which is why you're scum.

I also really hated this post because it's accusing us of being scum for...not going with the flow enough? Not matching thread temperature closely enough? When the case on Ranger was that she was matching thread temperature too closely and going with the flow too much? We're scum for bringing unusual insights to the thread about a mislynch bait slot who is a bit lost in their first large when we've been saying pretty clearly that we have reasons to believe that slot is town?

You talk about me having a planny scumgame where I think really far ahead and that's not too far off the mark, but you should know that I am always aware of thread temperature regardless of my alignment, that the temperature argument was the only part of the Ranger case that I found compelling until I talked with Ranger in enough detail for her to satisfy my concerns, and that I am perfectly capable of having plausible reads as scum. Even in History where my KT read was a little bit of a stretch, I first coached him and then townread him for doing what I told him to do. I didn't townread him before it made sense to do so.


One thing that i really don't like about your slot is that your reads have been wrong -- which is fine and can happen to the best of us -- but you don't respond to having been wrong in a townish way. You don't think "Oh I was wrong about Ranger and Tammy, I'm going to spend day 2 figuring out what that means." You don't think "oh I was wrong about Skybird I'm going ot spend day 3 figuring out how that changes things." Yesterday you scumread us for attacking Skybird the low hanging fruit and today the only re-evaluating you've done is to call that bussing.

You said you didn't like our reads progressions especially on the slots that we weren't focusing on or were giving space to (including your slot), but your own reads progressions, even when taking the heads separately, are also troublesome.

When Marquis reveals innos on Mala and davesaz, you don't respond with "hmm I was wrong about three of my scumreads I should go see what that means" you just...keep going.



Based on your reads progressions, if you're scum, you're likely scum with Axel/Cerb/dwlee.

Mirhawk would be in that list too, not for the obvious reason, but I think you're just tying yourselves to him. I'd have to make ISO maps of the others to see if you're just tying yourselves to them or if it goes both ways.

There was something else but I can't find it now. Maybe it'll come back to me. But the bolded posts are important and your reads progression on Ranger and Us is bad too.

pedit: Okay, that's a start, dwlee. Can you talk about what you found to be so town about those posts?

pedit: yeah, what Ogre said.


ugh this post is too fucking long but i don't know how to fix that.

I don't think Dwlee is scum here Plot (?). He's usually super easy to read for me and I definitely think he's town here.
Cerb is iffy for me though. He's not giving me the same "obvtown" vibe I've gotten from him as town before which is concerning.

I don't really know how to read dwlee, but I'll take your word for it for now. He's the one I'm less sure about, but he's another slot where the reads progression doesn't make a lot of sense.

=?14 =190 ++398 ++753 ==1639 --1654 =1780 =1870 ☾ ==3003 =3057 ++3262 ++3264 =3267 ++3372 +3383 ☾ ++3760 ++3762

Errant calls Sakura town in 398 and 753, then in 1639 they're null because Errant doesn't know enough about the slot. I don't mind this part too much because Sakura hadn't been doing much when she was sick so it was an easy slot to forget that it existed. In 1654 hiplop says that their wagon "is shit, comprised of shitty scummy players without reasons" and so I counted that as scumreading Sakura, who was voting them at the time. Maybe I should've marked it with - instead of -- since it was more doubtcasting/throwing shade than explicitly calling somebody scum.

She's an explicit null again in Errant(?)'s 3003, and then as soon as dwlee replaces in and starts sheeping them (without having any other reads, just "seniors is town piper is scum"), dwlee is town from then on.

I think if most of my reads were off in a game I would be more wary of sheep and they don't seem to be. I could see them treating a partner like this if they were feeling cheeky but I could also see scumthem treating a townshadow like this too. What I can't see is a townthem behaving like this towards a player they had previously been nullreading.

I don't mind giving dwlee more time to branch out if this is how he normally plays. He has three reads now, so 12 to go I guess.

Thanks for putting my Seniors thoughts into words.

I remember I was going to investigate Axel but then I was like "why would I need to cop a slot so obviously scum" while forgetting what the general consensus on that slot was. It's the slot I'd lynch without hesitation if I wasn't so passionate about other reads tho.

I forget what the general consensus was on Axel unless it was "uh okay, maybe". What did you think it was (as opposed to TWL and davesaz who were at opposite spectrums of my own unsure radar)?

This is a phone post from EP and my hands are freezing so bear with me

at first glance, i didn't like your first thing about how you wished we were town together. But i guess it doesnt mean much.

"Sometimes a scum player busses and sometimes they dont" is not even close to a response to me. Im asking yoy to tell me whether you think that i would pull off a half-assed bus at a weak attempt of distancing, which is pretty clearly what your slot is accusing me of, and you're dancing around that response with words that mean nothing in context. Id be totally fine with you saying "no errant, i think you are perfectly capable of leaving associative tells behind for town to pick up if you were scum," but you seem unwilling to actually engage me on this point. I feel like we're looking at this event from different lenses.

Ill let hiplop respond to the stuff on him, but i will say that because of my lack of engagement in this game, i havent been using associatives and as a result dont see a need to reevaluate my reads based on flips. The reads i have stay standing in a vacuum.

I will take the time to go back and explain my reads (i barely know them myself) because it seems like a majority of your case, at least the errant part of it, is progression based. It would probably help me get my foot in the door for this game anyway.
______
Marquis, i have an iissue with your recent post. Im picking up almost no similarity between PP's and your points about us. There's nothing that indicates that you're on the same page with piper here but your post is worded in a way that makes it look like 1) you're not just jumping on piper's reasoning, you're had those thoughts too and 2) you're on the same page as them. And it seems to me that neither of those things are true.

I hate myself a bit for being paranoid because I know that Cheetory is a large factor. I dont want to be the kind of person that makes past incidents reduce conviction in reads. So i guess you're still town.

There's another thing by TPP that seriously bugged me. Let me find t.

↑ The Pied Piper wrote:In the last game that I modded, there was a moment when the entire scumteam was at L-1, and the goon was bussing the roleblocker. "I should vote my partner so that people don't think we're scum together" is a thought that a lot of people have when they are scum, and being willing to vote a partner who might actually get lynched is only one step above that, especially when the partner has a useless role like wig vendor and is under a lot of suspicion.

It really, really seems to me like you're trying to paint us as scum with this as evidence.

1. If skybird wanted to bus us for towncred while both of us were on the chopping block, knowing that only a flip would give her that cred, why didnt she bus harder? Do you think its likely that skybird would bus us and hiplop would defend skybird? I dont knoe the answer to that question.
2. And how do you know skybird thinks like that? How do you know that skybird wouldnt go the no bussing route?
3. How do you know that it is more likely for scum to act like how you say they will act in that sitaution? "sometimes a scum player busses and sometimes they dont," right?

excuse me while I get more quotes

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Not suspect in this context. It's bad, not suspicious? It didn't appear to be for any real gain. Just a random swap. I think that's more likely to come from town, honestly.

Okay. Glad you see it. Understand why I sucmread you...sorta? Also misinterpreted your nocking as trying to bully into getting on your side. I getchya now.

I want a big long cerbpost on your thoughts on pied Piper. Not allowing you to sit on the sidelines like this, cerb.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:

↑ davesaz wrote:This is a terrible vote. As itlepip said, burden of proficiency. Your problem with the slot is that they haven't provided "penetrating analysis". Seriously?

cerb you're going OUT OF YOUR WAY to discredit the plotcase.

Look at how she is interacting with dram, that isn't town trying to show their side, its a strawman. A discredit. A chest pound.

It has LOTS more to do than just meta, axel. This is a slot with like 2029382838 words in their posts that have said like...2 things of actual content. This is a slot changing their reads based on convenience (Scumreads all day yesterday...now hard townreads me to no tomorrow? Same with people like skybird. Her read progression is illogical, fake, planned.

Plot is very good at recreating meta; but the important thing is that, she actively tries to recreate it. Shes gotten caught doing that poorly.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:ew wtf. how are you townreading TICTAC?

are you kidding me? Being unsure, okay I agree, I can see that. Tictac as...town? ludicrous. You don't understand the actual tone of this game which is why you're scum.

plot that sentence you dissected makes perfect sense. Sorry, it does.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:I said you replicate town meta as scum and methodically create situations where reads can make sense

your reads feels fake and replicated

ergo, scum.

very different than what you're saying

more stuff that was genuine

↑ The Pied Piper wrote:He has three reads now, so 12 to go I guess.

incorrect

Plot that post you quoted blatantly wasn't to you

↑ True Ogre wrote:

↑ pistachi0n wrote:

↑ True Ogre wrote:I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

What would I be lying about, though, if you're a flavor cop?

I was wondering if you were a flavor cop because my flavor is Roxie Hart from Chicago who did in fact kill people, your claim is a little less believable hearing you had no result.

My cop wouldn't give me your role name, just the musical you're in.

Ultimately I decided on you in an attempt to use the role to clear (or damn) you because you'd refused to claim flavour and you were unconfirmable by normal means. I had a few other ideas (ie Tammy, TWL, Piper) but decided this wasn't a role that was going to be used like a normal investigative. Had I gotten a result on you I would have crumbed it but not said anything. However given there was no result and there were two kills I thought that maybe you were an SK with a 1-shot ninja (thinking about that later I'm not sure if that actually works against a role cop) or that scum had some kind of protective effect. I just thought it really, really unlikely that I'd be roleblocked or jailkept given I hadn't crumbed anything and hadn't been playing like a PR.

↑ Cerberus v666 wrote:Umm. It seems clear that he assumed you were an ascetic of some sort. Very strange for an ascetic to fake claim miller though. The conclusion he drew doesn't really fit with the information? Can you explain your thought process, True Ogre, in a way that makes more sense to me at least?

Not in a way that's going to wrap it up in a nice neat package for you, Cerb.

Because of experiential differences? Because it was a nonstandard line of thought? Something else?

Why not check me? I actually claimed to have such a mechanical connection with my flavor, such that I am quite certain another slot in this game, with related flavor to myself, is town.

Why wouldn't you check me, discover that flavor, and then start searching for the connection?

@Errant: I think there are associatives between you and Skybird. A large part of how I play is by looking at reads progressions and looking for associatives and I think that most people leave them. I don't think you meant to, it's just that you scumread her early and then when her wagon started looking viable, both of you started defending her instead.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:It really, really seems to me like you're trying to paint us as scum with this as evidence.

1. If skybird wanted to bus us for towncred while both of us were on the chopping block, knowing that only a flip would give her that cred, why didnt she bus harder? Do you think its likely that skybird would bus us and hiplop would defend skybird? I dont knoe the answer to that question.
2. And how do you know skybird thinks like that? How do you know that skybird wouldnt go the no bussing route?
3. How do you know that it is more likely for scum to act like how you say they will act in that sitaution? "sometimes a scum player busses and sometimes they dont," right?

0. The point of this post was that podoboq wants to clear you guys because scum voted for you and that's not a very good reason to clear a person. Bussing is a thing.

1. I don't know. Early game distancing. One of you would've flipped eventually, the other would've received some amount of towncred from the newer players.

2. Because she wasn't playing like someone with a particularly confident scumgame. She was playing like someone who hasn't been scum very many times or very often. Looking through her completed private topics it seems she's been scum only once since the switch to PTs from QTs.

Players who haven't been scum many times before or who don't seem to know much about how to be scum tend to pick low level strategies. "I could vote for my partner and people would think we're not scum together" is one of the most basic thoughts a scum player could have. My girlfriend has never played mafia before and "you should try voting your partner" was one of the first things she thought of when we were discussing mafia theory back in July or somewhen, right along with "you should try lurking as scum so that you don't attract attention."

3. If someone is playing a low level scumgame then I'm going to assume they're not do anything fancy.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:i havent been using associatives and as a result dont see a need to reevaluate my reads based on flips. The reads i have stay standing in a vacuum.

hiplop claimed to be:

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Spiff, if it wasn't obvious, I'm cluster-reading this game.

that huge group has mini groups I'm trying to sort out

your rebuttal to Cakez' case on you back on day 1, accusing him of not using associatives enough:

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:"Cakez case is bad" is also terrible. Even if the case was bad, that doesn't even make us scum. Secondly, the case isn't bad. You're not evaluating your reads with respect to associative tells.

↑ Friendless Seniors wrote:Plotinus, you said you've been following my previous games. that means that you know that a good chunk of my townhunting is based on associatives. You think i wouldnt be conscious about my own if i'm scum?

this was part of why i made that point.

↑ hiplop wrote:Plot that post you quoted blatantly wasn't to you

Which post?

bump

goosebumps