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↑ BROseidon wrote:With Kayle jungle you still have to know how to juggle the soft-resets, which requires skill

Just like TF in the jungle

We played a tf jungle yesterday, it is kind of surprising how quick it farms/how strong it gets. And that's when I was playing mummy jungle (and frankly was outplaying him initially). No stopping him though.

Kayle is more forgiving because she packs a heal in her kit. And if you do her runes right as marks/arm seals/ap glyphs/quints, she'll tear through the jungle quite well.

Ring on ww top is acceptable at best. A single Q still takes away around a quarter/third of your mana away and if you're in a lane where you need to trade a lit, ww will have a hard time keeping up despite the inbuilt sustain he has.

You don't win lane with ww top.

You let them push you to turret and farm, using q to stay healthy. Then you ult when your jungler comes for kills

I get that, but ww doesn't really scale all that well into lategame and if he can't win (or outright lose vs ranged), there really isn't much of a point playing him top

↑ KaleiÐoscøpe wrote:I get that, but ww doesn't really scale all that well into lategame and if he can't win (or outright lose vs ranged), there really isn't much of a point playing him top

Unless you want to be a Darien wannabe, that is. Which is a big indication that you shouldn't be doing that.

Kscope: ww scales extremely well into the late game. That's his strongest point.

Ww being in jungle or lane doesn't change that his biggest pressure point comes towards the late game, not the early game.

Sort of? When you can buy an item that makes his ult literally not exist with 1250 gold, I'm not convinced he's actually viable lategame.

I'm pretty sure that not every player on the enemy team worth initating on will be able to afford the item slot / gold cost of that 1250. Or that his ult is inherently gone just based off of that: you can ult after it's been used, use the ult as a jump initiation rather than for the suppress (except for super high levels of play, the ult usually sticks for at least half a second, which is enough time, really), or simply hold the ult as a pressure point. The ult never goes away, its use merely changes.

↑ KaleiÐoscøpe wrote:but ww doesn't really scale all that well into lategame

Uh...

Also, WW's ult is far from the only reason why he's a monster late game.

The fact that he fucking out tanks everyone in the game short of Mundo while putting out huge damage and having good chase is why he's a monster late game.

Plus he gives his ADC 40% AS because why not.

That too.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

↑ KaleiÐoscøpe wrote:I get that, but ww doesn't really scale all that well into lategame and if he can't win (or outright lose vs ranged), there really isn't much of a point playing him top

Unless you want to be a Darien wannabe, that is. Which is a big indication that you shouldn't be doing that.

And he won with it after consistently losing his lane. Which should tell you that there might be a point to him lategame, because WW has few matchups top he actually wins, there are a lot he can sort of stay in.

(It's the movespeed. Fights with a warwick lategame, when towers are down, are not close. People do not get away. If you win a fight, you win it hard. After that his attackspeed helps convert it to actual objectives, but that's a bonus at that point.)

Silver 2. Yay Me.

↑ quadz08 wrote:When you can buy an item that makes his ult literally not exist with 1250 gold,

And a slot. The opportunity cost is the real problem.

I agree, though it's worth pointing out the obvious: mercurial scimitar is less of an opportunity cost hit than just QSS at full build, at least for the ADC, which at end game is likely who WW wants to delete.

WE doesn't care who he deletes, because he'll stall you out regardless

i thought QSS canceled that?

He means that he can fight you through it at endgame because of Warick's sustain and tank, I think.

So I just realized that despite having a 49% winrate in ranked, my ranked MMR is low gold. WHAT. I don't even win half my games apparently. That would explain why i get 20+ lp per win.

I've played hundreds of WW top games, and there aren't that many opponents that can just hard deny you. I sometimes fall behind on farm, but I think a lot of the CS I miss are unforced rather than due to the matchup. It's also worth noting WW is one of best characters for bouncing back from a mediocre laning phase in the midgame, especially at the Silver-Gold level we usually play, where people do no end of stupid things. Probably less true at higher levels, but the playmaking potential is there.

QSS does reduce your zerg potential in the lategame, but there is an opportunity cost, and in some of those games the ADC would have preferred to go GA instead. Most AP carries can't conveniently just slot a QSS into their builds, and most bruisers don't want one either. It's a good item to build against a Warwick that's mauling you in every fight, but it won't make him go away.

It's as a general rule pretty hard for a melee character to stay strong in the ultra lategame because damage starts outscaling tankiness at that point and so every second that you have to spend moving towards a character and not attacking is really brutal. But we're talking ultra lategame, and even then ww's ult gives him a leg up because for a gap closer it has pretty long range, helping to negate that weakness somewhat.

Plus, if you ever end up in a situation where their bruisers are left against your bruisers then ww just wins the fight, so that's a thing too.

↑ animorpherv1 wrote:So I just realized that despite having a 49% winrate in ranked, my ranked MMR is low gold. WHAT. I don't even win half my games apparently. That would explain why i get 20+ lp per win.

I feel like I asked this before, but how do you figure/where do you find your MMR?

I think mostly people look at the divisions their opponents tend to be in and guess from there. If you're getting mostly Gold V's and VI's your MMR is likely low Gold.

↑ zoraster wrote:I think mostly people look at the divisions their opponents tend to be in and guess from there. If you're getting mostly Gold V's and VI's your MMR is likely low Gold.

I honestly don't really look, and I think I've forgotten how. You can tell on the loading screen by their borders, right?