I can only picture Metal Sonic dressed up as a Private Investigator, pressing a black-light and magnifying glass to the floor, looking all solemn. I ask him what the deal is and he says, "Shh... I'm this close to finding my number one cumread."
Hey look it's exactly what everyone said about Rach.
Pretty sure I could quote mine other people saying Varsoon is just being Varsoon too.
In post 3826, Faster Than Light wrote:End of D2, MS was scum-reading Nick and I was pulling back from that read due to the way his wagon was operating. I'm a bit understanding of BRO--without B&B's flip, I'd probably be pushing/pressuring B&B today.
Why? Your hammer post doesn't give any indication that you even remotely suspected mollie and Majiffy.
@ Mac: I'm confused by your vote. Ghostlin tries to scumpaint you and you threaten to vote him, but then vote me without any explanation? Even though I'm voting the guy you just threatened to vote...?
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:16 am
by Mac
In post 3857, Desperado wrote:
@ Mac: I'm confused by your vote. Ghostlin tries to scumpaint you and you threaten to vote him, but then vote me without any explanation? Even though I'm voting the guy you just threatened to vote...?
I can't remember a single thing you have done. as for voting ghostlin, only because he said he'd rather people vote him over "obvtown mastin" which I'm not seeing at all and still wishing for someone to explain.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:18 am
by Faster Than Light
@zMuffin
: Yeah, I feel you. I can't get much traction out of this TF thing and Mala has a lot to answer for. Besides, the way TF handled my mention of exposing Venmar makes me more comfortable in town-reading his slot. If he was scum, he'd know if we were both town and would likely encourage me to impale myself on the PGO. Of course, this kinda falls apart if Venmar is scum, since it's pretty obvious that scum-TF wouldn't want me confirming alignment on a scum-Venmar. Paranoia aside, he could just kill me during the night phase, so anything I got on Venmar wouldn't be revealed and it could be interpreted that Venmar is, in fact, PGO. So, it's totally against scum-TF's wincon to tell me to absolutely avoid confirming Venmar's alignment, unless he thinks I have a way of doing it that isn't a targeted night action--and it's apparent by his engagement on my earlier gambit that he doesn't believe in that. I hope that makes sense. So, yeah, I'm fine with transitioning to someone else I'm very suspicious of;
VOTE: MalaKittens
@Desperado
: Try looking at my nearly two-dozen other posts where I am directly standing in opposition to B&B and saying that the blind sheeps of the Nick wagon are shitty and more time should be spent on the day. It's fairly obvious that I didn't agree at all with how B&B handled the Nick wagon. If anything, my hammer is a conceit to Majiffy, as I was waiting for the inevitable Nick scum-flip and for Majiffy to gloat all goddamn day about it. Instead, Nick flips town and B&B dies overnight, so now I'm in this place where I have to analyze everything again and pressure out different players.
-V
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:21 am
by Mac
varsoon you missed the question where i asked if you mapped out how your gambit worked anywhere?
In post 3857, Desperado wrote:
@ Mac: I'm confused by your vote. Ghostlin tries to scumpaint you and you threaten to vote him, but then vote me without any explanation? Even though I'm voting the guy you just threatened to vote...?
I can't remember a single thing you have done. as for voting ghostlin, only because he said he'd rather people vote him over "obvtown mastin" which I'm not seeing at all and still wishing for someone to explain.
Maybe read my ISO or something? I'm not going to give you a greatest hits list but the notion that I "haven't done anything" is kind of insulting.
@Desperado : Try looking at my nearly two-dozen other posts where I am directly standing in opposition to B&B and saying that the blind sheeps of the Nick wagon are shitty and more time should be spent on the day. It's fairly obvious that I didn't agree at all with how B&B handled the Nick wagon.
If anything, my hammer is a conceit to Majiffy, as I was waiting for the inevitable Nick scum-flip and for Majiffy to gloat all goddamn day about it. Instead, Nick flips town and B&B dies overnight, so now I'm in this place where I have to analyze everything again and pressure out different players.
None of that actually means you thought they were scum though. You were just mad that Majiffy was being so loud and obnoxious.
I never got an indication yesterday that you thought mollie and Jiffy were scummy for what they were doing. Can you quote something for me?
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:26 am
by Desperado
Also, Mac: Mastin turnaround on you is really troubling, especially given how vague he was about his meta read on you earlier. I remember being put off by it in the moment and his behavior now makes it even worse.
In post 3857, Desperado wrote:
@ Mac: I'm confused by your vote. Ghostlin tries to scumpaint you and you threaten to vote him, but then vote me without any explanation? Even though I'm voting the guy you just threatened to vote...?
I can't remember a single thing you have done. as for voting ghostlin, only because he said he'd rather people vote him over "obvtown mastin" which I'm not seeing at all and still wishing for someone to explain.
Maybe read my ISO or something? I'm not going to give you a greatest hits list but the notion that I "haven't done anything" is kind of insulting.
I might do. you should know that I did say "I can't remember" rather than flat out accusing you.
pedit - hey thats more memorable
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:30 am
by Faster Than Light
In post 3860, Mac wrote:varsoon you missed the question where i asked if you mapped out how your gambit worked anywhere?
Revealing it is actually pretty anti-town at this point.
Take my word for it. I might talk about it after I die, but not right now.
@Desp: Just ISO me, I'm not running your books for you,
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:34 am
by Desperado
Spoiler: Mastin's Mac Progression
In post 692, mastin2 wrote:I also think this is town-Mac, not scum-Mac. Broseidon's tripping my gut as scum for some odd reason, but he's solidly town via his words.
In post 718, mastin2 wrote:Mac iso:
Some specific posts may be a bit concerning, but overall, there's strong town posting present and I really don't think this is scuMac.
Malakittens iso:
She's not giving me warm fuzzy feelings. At all. This doesn't seem like the town-her that I've come to expect, like, at all. So again, bit of a scumread.
She replaced nhammen, who is next on my iso list. There's not much to really see, there. I can't really have anything definitive, other than a bit of a gut scumread with his overall approach.
Skull iso is basically empty, so nothing there at all. At this point with me not really having any really strong townreads, might be a scumread just by virtue of being a null-read.
In post 721, Desperado wrote:Which posts? You flatly said all of my reads were weak, can you talk about the mac read more specifically and how it fits into your read?
168 is a bit concerning, as is 224. 245 isn't as bad and can also be town, but it can also be along a similar vein. 261 also makes me a bit nervous, but again can be scumhunting.
That's it. The rest I see as town. Those few posts to give doubt aren't enough to overcome the overall picture. My memory of a scuMac might not be as good as with others, but this. just. doesn't. feel. like. what I remember. to be. scuMac. It feels like his town self. Combined with the town posting, and I really don't get the scumread on him.
In post 724, mastin2 wrote:My memory of a scuMac might not be as good as with others, but this. just. doesn't. feel. like. what I remember. to be. scuMac. It feels like his town self.
What do you remember scuMac to be? Do you disagree with the meta I provided?
Not this? And Maybe? I'll admit it, Mac's not a player I find easy to remember in my games, because Mac typically isn't someone I have much focus on. (Akin to Zdenek, in that he's someone I play with a lot, but is not very memorable. I remember playing with Mac and the generalities, but not the specifics.) But again. I just don't think this is scum-Mac. If you absolutely must, call it gut. (It aint gut. ) I'll do my homework later to determine for surez, but I just. don't. see. a. scuMac.
In post 966, mastin2 wrote:Mac is a townread because most of my scumreads are pushing for his mislynch. No, but seriously; Mac's town because Mac's posting has been town and I have a VERY strong Gut townread on Mac to go along with it. The only reason he's not higher up is because this is admittedly not backed up by meta and I have yet to research that.
In post 2777, mastin2 wrote:Know what? Why do later what I can do now? Starting with the townreads, Trust Fund and below.
MacI continue to believe this is Mac's town posting. Yes, admittedly, I am not the player most familiar with Mac. But everything I'm seeing points to Mac being town. I have a
very
strong gut feeling that this is town-Mac, and not scuMac. Beyond the gut read which I haven't bothered to back up with meta, though,
read his posts
.
Each post, while not exactly being very solid, contributes small nuggets that are incredibly helpful, showing great insight. They have the air of trying to figure things out around them, and other than one or two spots which're questionable, they all read as town. Basically, Mac is a lesser version of Aj the Epic. And I do mean lesser, since Mac is near the bottom of my town-list. I
In post 175, borkjerfkin wrote:[9] TiphaineDeath (Venmar, zMuffinMan, nickthename, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mac, Ghostlin, Faster Than Light, Trust Fund, [nhammen/Malakittens])
For the record, people seem to forget that nhammen supported this wagon but critically, avoided joining it.
And since it's been brought up:
Venmar, BeautyAndTheBeast, Ghostlin, and FTL (in no particular order) are definitely not scum, with Trust Fund and zMuffinMan both similarly being eliminated.
That leaves {nick, Mac, nhammen/Malakittens} left. If there's scum on the wagon, it's in those names. (Which, again, is a good piece of evidence for lynching Malakittens.)
In post 3376, mastin2 wrote:Venmar: I'm willing to listen to you about a potential scuMac (especially given the defense of Malakittens), but I don't think that Mac's a realistic lynch candidate for today. Talk to me tomorrow about it, and we'll see.
Mac appears in every single one of Mastin's town lists up to 2777. Then suddenly Mastin is willing to listen to Venmar about scumMac, "mainly because of the mala defense" and his treatment of nick's wagon. There's very little substance to the read change when you consider how strongly he supported town mac on day 1.
No. I'm telling you that I do not recall what you are saying. I don't think you ever legitimately treated B&TB as scummy yesterday. Can you prove me wrong?
In post 3860, Mac wrote:varsoon you missed the question where i asked if you mapped out how your gambit worked anywhere?
Revealing it is actually pretty anti-town at this point.
Take my word for it. I might talk about it after I die, but not right now.
@Desp: Just ISO me, I'm not running your books for you,
how is talking about it after you die going to help us?
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:49 am
by Faster Than Light
It's fairly obvious there was some contention between us. As the day went on, I was more and more convinced that B&B was either a completely dense townie or scum that was promoting the sheeping out of a quick mislynch.
In post 3403, Aj The Epic wrote:FTL: Your gambit is not going to work better than scum hunting. I think I know what you're doing here, and it's stupid regardless of flip outcomes because the logic is bad. (of course you never responded to me when I spoilered and when through your reasoning post).
Secondly, Nick keeps going "I'll get that case up later" constantly. I wrote a mala case in probably 10 minutes yesterday, it was that easy. You can get just about ANY post and go with it. Why is it taking him so damn long?
Mala dies tomorrow. End of story. We've decided to lynch Nick today on BnB's judgment and they've promised to at least look at mala tomorrow (when I'll write up an up-to-date case on her IN A TIMELY FASHION) and then we'll be clear of possibly two scum. Because you know what? Your gambit is already set to clear Nick. You want so badly to clear him that you've chosen the most likely scum candidate and said "Nick's allignment is the opposite BECAUSE one is consistent and one is not and the scum team OBVIOUSLY follows one of these trends".
So look:
No one wants to halt the current proceedings of actually scumhunting
to go along with your three-piece gambit that involves lynching someone to clear someone else. That's not how gambits are employed, nor do you basically televise the whole gambit before starting it... Nor do you announce that you're pulling a gambit.
There is an art to it, and you've yet to master it. Your idea seems so farfetched and complicated (in a bad way, not complex) that it's basically destined to fail by one overlooked issue.
You know the last time I saw a large gambit?
Auntie Jemina pulled on in a game early, calling herself the town role blocker when under pressure and getting a mass claim day 1. She had a really large idea about how to overlap roles well and avoid lynching the PRs. Docs stayed unclaimed and such but you know what? Scum just picked off power roles, as planned. Duh. Jemina flipped scum in the endgame and everyone felt stupid for it. There was no way it ever would've worked in town's favor, and I voiced that, but hey. Complicated long term gambits WILL FAIL because eventually scum will know what's going on and pass through with ease. Imagine if Nacho and Nick are opposite alignments: The scum would know which is town and if he was really stuck, he'd just base his reactions off the town player, changing it slightly to be believable.
1- Nick's busy. He'll get his Mala case done. This is a moot point. I spent over 3 hours before WRITING a case on someone. If you can't see why it's important for Nick to have a case on Mala before anyone gets lynched, you need to. No matter his alignment, it gives a point of reference.
2- I've reiterated, even in the post you reference as bad logic, that they could both be scum. The point is, my alignment doesn't fucking
CLEAR
anyone. It gives a truthful alignment tell. I'd rather get information on 3 players instead of haphazardly risk a mislynch on two in a row. Blindly fumble around and lynch Mala regardless of evidence D3? Sounds real fuckin' town, AJ. Even as a contingency plan, that's not going to give us the info we could mine out of this situation.
3- If you think, in some bizarre world, that everyone sheeping MY OWN POINTS and B&B's against Nick is actually scum hunting, you need to get your head straight. Rushing the day and pushing out this lynch was something I was dead set on, but I stopped and realized how fucking backwards that is. Sure, Nick is a top scum candidate of mine. But Mala's been sending up flags and I've figured out a way to determine THREE PLAYERS' alignments with only a lynch on one of them. That's eons better than your proposed 'scumhunting'. Also, the amount of shit that I've kicked up by doing this has produced lots of amazing reactions and things to look at when we're finally done with Mala and/or Nick, so, yeah, I think you need to take a step back and realize that
Varsoon is doing the most scum-hunting in this entire game.
4-You don't know what I'm doing. Part of this gambit is, in fact, to reveal it in such a way. See point 3, man. My gambit has already produced awesome content. And, again, I reiterate, you have no clue what I'm doing, so stop saying it won't work. Just because I don't play by the same little codes and pathways that most players do doesn't mean that what I'm capable of is less effective. Open your mind.
5- Last time is not this time, you bastard. Last time I saw a grown man wearing red, he was hitting a woman. Ergo, every time I see a grown man in red, he'll be hitting a woman/a wife beater? And you're telling me about shitty logic.
Ultimately, you're rooted in terrible meta ideas of how the game 'works', you don't know what I'm doing and have no place to say otherwise, and you think speed-lynching Nick's somehow the best plan for D2.
I've proven otherwise.
Now, please, put that vote on Mala, or do some actual scum hunting of your own.
You know what makes me uncomfortable? B&B calls out 10 players on SRN but not voting him. Players then can all just hop on the wagon without having ARTICULATION for WHY, and if it turns out in a scum lynch, yattai, town points all around, but if it's a mislynch, they get to all just hide behind either pointing fingers at B&B or the smoke-screen that B&B allowed for scum to hide in that wagon.
The way it was growing, and the hydra dissonance about it, and just about everything I've pointed out, it doesn't sit right with me.
: I wanna play league with you. My username is "Varsoon", if you want to play sometime.
@Ghostlin
: Took a nap and came back and now you're on the court. You wanna jam with me?
Also, now that I'm here and you're here, wanna know anything?
@B&B
: Look, I understand that trust has to be earned. I was banned from the site for 2 weeks over something I highly contested but I'm still playing this game despite that. Is that not proof of my dedication to the game itself? I spent 15 hours, in this game, writing out ISO cases to support my reads list. Doesn't that show that I'm invested? I have this game open on a tab on my browser and I haven't navigated away since it began, because I don't want to miss anything--I've spent more time on this game than I have in my Grad school seminars and even doing work for grad school. Does that mean nothing to you? I even sent Bork the entire Xenogears Perfect Works (translated and in HQ scans) just so he'd have even more of a handle on the source material.
If you can't trust me after the literal days of work I've put into this game, then I don't think you'll ever trust me. What wins trust? Being on wagons that give scum flips? If that was the case, Scum would always bus their allies. No. So, I ask again, what do I have to do to make you believe me, to make you trust that I'm not just talking out of my ass, that I've thoroughly figured out a play that'll be amazing and get a lot of good info? Because it hurts a lot, it really sucks when the players I got into this game with and have looked up to since the day I started playing on Mafiascum call my plays bullshit and shenanigans and they just dismiss what I have to say. I'm trying my best to earn it, I'm here, I'm dedicated. I've cried over this damn game, and gotten angry, and almost put a hole in my wall. I've been through a move across the country, and I've been through a short-lived relationship where I was essentially told I wasn't good enough--despite how fucking transient my life has been for the last three months, I've been here and the game's been here for me. Why can't you be?
In post 3526, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:Eye on the prize, town. Lets lynch nickscum and then save the dick swinging for tomorrow.
NOT UNTIL HE PRESENTS HIS MALA CASE.
I hope you understand that behavior such as your own is the reason scum can get away with lurking wagons away.
Because quick-lynching Nick sure does get us a shitload of information.
Pressuring everyone SRN to put a vote there is what lets scum get away with lurking on a wagon. If they're SRN, they instantly have alimony and can vote Nick to death. If they're TRN, they're given poise to just sit around and be all "Meeeeh, it's inevitable, why even try anything else~"
Fuck you. I'm trying something else, and so are plenty of people. If you can somehow declare that this day would've been better if it ended 600 posts ago, then you need to re-evaluate how important all the info we've gained since then is. You're actively denouncing playing the game at hand, and generation of content, all because you're sure you got scum. You know what? I was sure of that shit, too. At the windup of this day, I was positive that Nick was scum, but at least I had the humility and the consideration to do scum hunting outside of pushing that wagon alone until the day ended. I'd like to think what I've done since then has produced lots of content that'll help town get a victory in this game, too. We've gotten excellent contributions from Mastin, Nick, Nacho, Desperado, zMuffin, B&B and more that, while they might not advance town agendas, certainly help us read other players as well as those that I named--ESPECIALLY when we start getting flips from lynches and kills.
So, yeah, continue to bemoan my play. At least I'm playing, damn it. Even if it isn't the 'game' you are playing.
Needless to say, I was disappointed to wake up and find this thread still open.
You want your lynch? Fine, have you damn lynch, just stop being a total asshole about it. I've spent the better part of this day actually trying to get more info and figure shit out, but if you want to just push this lynch through while acting like anything but a lynch of Nick is useless, then fuck it, you reap what you sow. You, and all the other scumbag assholes who've been suffocating anyone who tried something other than sheeping this fucking wagon. I'm through. Nick's probably scum anyway, so fuck it. Here come the flip, have fun, gloat like a bunch of cheese-eating suit-wearing campy assholes and maybe, just maybe, we can actually play the game on D3 and not browbeat the shit out of everyone to sheep the easiest wagon of the day.
In post 3860, Mac wrote:varsoon you missed the question where i asked if you mapped out how your gambit worked anywhere?
Revealing it is actually pretty anti-town at this point.
Take my word for it. I might talk about it after I die, but not right now.
@Desp: Just ISO me, I'm not running your books for you,
how is talking about it after you die going to help us?
Mac, I know a handful of people's roles, mine included. Revealing them is more helpful to scum than to town.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:59 am
by zMuffinMan
desp wrote:Mastin's Mac Progression
this doesn't really say much, except that he changed his mind.
you could probably find the same sort of thing for my read progression on a lot of players. pretty sure i've flip-flopped on a majority of players in this game at some point. there's probably very little "substance" to my read changes, except that i changed my mind for one reason or another, even if i didn't state why.
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:06 am
by Desperado
Varsoon, I'm not seeing it. For example, this post:
You know what makes me uncomfortable? B&B calls out 10 players on SRN but not voting him. Players then can all just hop on the wagon without having ARTICULATION for WHY, and if it turns out in a scum lynch, yattai, town points all around, but if it's a mislynch,
they get to all just hide behind either pointing fingers at B&B or the smoke-screen that B&B allowed for scum to hide in that wagon.
The way it was growing, and the hydra dissonance about it, and just about everything I've pointed out, it doesn't sit right with me.
-V
Is pretty blatant talking about B&TB like they are town. Particularly the bolded.
this doesn't really say much, except that he changed his mind.
you could probably find the same sort of thing for my read progression on a lot of players. pretty sure i've flip-flopped on a majority of players in this game at some point. there's probably very little "substance" to my read changes, except that i changed my mind for one reason or another, even if i didn't state why.
I think it says a lot actually. Mastin never went any further than "I feel REALLY REALLY STRONGLY that this is TownMac." Even though he reiterated the gut read probably a half a dozen times, and admitted that he had to do meta research, he was convinced that it wasn't scum mac.
Then Mac is a possibility with little to no indication given as to why.
