Mafiascum.net

In post 3848, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3847, MathBlade wrote:There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

Anything with vig on it is IC + vig

Backup vig is one of those claims so out there it just isn’t scum and can’t be

Backup gunsmith
Literally any role with cop in the name if the rolecop hasn't flipped
Vig claim can buy time if late enough

Hell if you get counter claimed by the JK now the two actual town power roles are both out of the game and your winrate is extremely high so

In post 3850, MathBlade wrote:

In post 3848, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3847, MathBlade wrote:There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

In post 3853, RadiantCowbells wrote:Backup gunsmith
Literally any role with cop in the name if the rolecop hasn't flipped
Vig claim can buy time if late enough

Hell if you get counter claimed by the JK now the two actual town power roles are both out of the game and your winrate is extremely high so

Backup gunsmith gets CC’d by the backup vig
Any role with cop in it wouldn’t pass review with a gunsmith
Vig claim again proves my point about time

Once a GS check happens it’s about stopping bleeding versus manipulating.

In post 3854, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3850, MathBlade wrote:

In post 3848, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3847, MathBlade wrote:There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

No two kills on a given night.

Cop gunsmith is passable and I've played and won it as scum back when i was super new so I'm not sure what you're thinking of there

In post 3857, RadiantCowbells wrote:Cop gunsmith is passable and I've played and won it as scum back when i was super new so I'm not sure what you're thinking of there

Cop gunsmith shouldn’t pass review

Congrats on winning it.

In post 3856, MathBlade wrote:

In post 3854, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3850, MathBlade wrote:

In post 3848, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3847, MathBlade wrote:There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

No two kills on a given night.

Be creative. That's why I suggested novice vig, it works for D2. Then you can claim roleblocked. Just do something, yeah? And simple Jailkeeper is probably inclined to buy a Roleblocker existing with simple being there to prevent conflicts!

In post 3859, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3856, MathBlade wrote:

In post 3854, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3850, MathBlade wrote:

In post 3848, RadiantCowbells wrote:

In post 3847, MathBlade wrote:There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

It’s not because normal rules.

Vig can’t be attached to scum. Period.

What part of this stops a scum player from saying "Hi me is novice Vigilante what's up my boyz"

No two kills on a given night.

Be creative. That's why I suggested novice vig, it works for D2. Then you can claim roleblocked. Just do something, yeah? And simple Jailkeeper is probably inclined to buy a Roleblocker existing with simple being there to prevent conflicts!

There’s limits to creativity though.

Stop making townsided broken setups and relying on scum to “be creative” is a much better solution.

Reduce power and town has to get better

And not relying*

I agree that that specific setup was townsided but i don't think it's a fundamental problem with the two roles coexisting. I'd be fine with cop GS VT*8 goon goon scumdoc probably or a range of other combos

alright i heard enough VOTE: MathBlade

I think your claim that nerfing town power would make town play better is one that could use extraordinary evidence given that it is an extraordinary claim

hey RC remind me what's the town winrate of mountainous

Like 20%

I knew the number at one point, i have no idea now

GG, scum played well. I really wish people had actually talked to me when I said "I think I'm pocketed" instead of just...ignoring me. I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him (and tbh had it been literally anyone else he would've been flash elim'd right there), but the early interactions with Leaf just kinda set it up for me to sit in HEM's pocket.

Kinda agree that town had too much power unleashed on Day 1, but it didn't really matter since they all died one after the other before they could do much, and it got one of the PRs voted out since their role didn't seem to fit. I want to say the game felt decided on Day 1 because of how drawn out and messy it was, but mainly I think it's just all the PRs claiming early that hurt us the most since it also prevented NKA and let a top town read like Math survive to ELo without anyone questioning why he was still alive.

I think on average the random role distribution is enough to balance the game since PRs may go to someone who misplays it. In an optimal distribution I'm sure it's definitely a town sided set up. But as it is now it looked so town sided on paper that it was enough for people to vote out a TPR mainly due to balance reasons. So I guess the main counter balance for this set up is that if the game looks town sided and a PR has some wonky looking results without catching scum, town will think they're just scum. Scum's best play is to say it's too town-sided as well and really push that idea.

I didn’t say NO power.

I said reduce it.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12921778

This trend of using informed or just stacking town and asking scum to be creative has to stop imho.

In post 3864, RadiantCowbells wrote:I think your claim that nerfing town power would make town play better is one that could use extraordinary evidence given that it is an extraordinary claim

It’s not really that extraordinary though.

The more people are forced to engage with a problem the more they have to get better.

Mountainous will have a lower win rate until people adjust.

Similarly too much TPR leaves people disengaged and a few key players “decide” and others are sidelined then when key players die it’s a vaccuum.

In post 3868, Roden wrote:GG, scum played well. I really wish people had actually talked to me when I said "I think I'm pocketed" instead of just...ignoring me. I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him (and tbh had it been literally anyone else he would've been flash elim'd right there), but the early interactions with Leaf just kinda set it up for me to sit in HEM's pocket.

Kinda agree that town had too much power unleashed on Day 1, but it didn't really matter since they all died one after the other before they could do much, and it got one of the PRs voted out since their role didn't seem to fit. I want to say the game felt decided on Day 1 because of how drawn out and messy it was, but mainly I think it's just all the PRs claiming early that hurt us the most since it also prevented NKA and let a top town read like Math survive to ELo without anyone questioning why he was still alive.

I think on average the random role distribution is enough to balance the game since PRs may go to someone who misplays it. In an optimal distribution I'm sure it's definitely a town sided set up. But as it is now it looked so town sided on paper that it was enough for people to vote out a TPR mainly due to balance reasons. So I guess the main counter balance for this set up is that if the game looks town sided and a PR has some wonky looking results without catching scum, town will think they're just scum. Scum's best play is to say it's too town-sided as well and really push that idea.

Are gamma, Roden, and myself all wrong here RC?

And NK15?

I really think your sim is flawed here

In post 3870, MathBlade wrote:

In post 3864, RadiantCowbells wrote:I think your claim that nerfing town power would make town play better is one that could use extraordinary evidence given that it is an extraordinary claim

It’s not really that extraordinary though.

The more people are forced to engage with a problem the more they have to get better.

Mountainous will have a lower win rate until people adjust.

Similarly too much TPR leaves people disengaged and a few key players “decide” and others are sidelined then when key players die it’s a vaccuum.

The claim that engagement has to do with how much is required doesn't seem to work given that both times in the recent newbie queue history where the setup was perceived as bafflingly one sided the morale for the other teams absolutely implode and they barely efforted.

Sure. You're all wrong, if that's what you want to hear.