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Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:23 am
by humaneatingmonkey
In post 3868, Roden wrote:I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him
Really? I thought that was instrumental in discouraging you from pursuing that train of thought...
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:24 am
by MathBlade
So got it.
I will stick to talking with implosion then since you’re not going to listen to me or others then.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:25 am
by RadiantCowbells
I'm sure with you personally part of the issue is you directly comparing power in MU setups vs MS setups but quite frankly MU is very late in an extremely toxic meta shift whereby 2+ people are confirmed town on D1 just for showing up to the game and scum are demoralized from the get go and they can afford to play scumsided setups because of a myriad factors causing scum to underperform there.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:27 am
by RadiantCowbells
When MS starts needing flake moderators to police people who sub out because scum role PM then tactically playing scumsided setups becomes more realistic
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:28 am
by DkKoba
people tend to think a setup is skewed against them as their own alignment when the setup is balanced in a closed - this is how i catch out scum mathblade everytime when he starts complaining about balance when I find the setup not that bad.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:31 am
by RadiantCowbells
There's a very strong tendency for random people to have a skewed sense of balance where 65-35 scumsided games are the 'balanced' and to cite things like not wanting town to win because of night actions but because of day play and etc. Unfortunately fact is that the nightkill is broken overpowered and town need powerful tools of their own to counteract it.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:31 am
by Gamma Emerald
In post 3879, DkKoba wrote:people tend to think a setup is skewed against them as their own alignment when the setup is balanced in a closed - this is how i catch out scum mathblade everytime when he starts complaining about balance when I find the setup not that bad.
^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:33 am
by RadiantCowbells
Honestly nightkills are a disgustingly toxic mechanic and social deduction is better off without it. The end goodbye.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:51 am
by Roden
In post 3875, humaneatingmonkey wrote: In post 3868, Roden wrote:I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him
Really? I thought that was instrumental in discouraging you from pursuing that train of thought...
When it happened it felt manipulative, and I noticed you were going after whoever scum read you. It was part of the reason I ended up making that wall post going into my weaknesses as town and trying to get people to engage with me on that. But because I town read you outside of that instance and figured Malcom vs Kitty was TvS in some way, I interpreted your lash out as town manipulative instead of scum manipulative. In the end I figured you'd just try to reason with me if you were scum, instead of risking a hostile reaction.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 12:02 pm
by DkKoba
In post 3883, Roden wrote: In post 3875, humaneatingmonkey wrote: In post 3868, Roden wrote:I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him
Really? I thought that was instrumental in discouraging you from pursuing that train of thought...
When it happened it felt manipulative, and I noticed you were going after whoever scum read you. It was part of the reason I ended up making that wall post going into my weaknesses as town and trying to get people to engage with me on that. But because I town read you outside of that instance and figured Malcom vs Kitty was TvS in some way, I interpreted your lash out as town manipulative instead of scum manipulative. In the end I figured you'd just try to reason with me if you were scum, instead of risking a hostile reaction.
i am glad i defended u bc i was like 99% sure you were town
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 12:35 pm
by Not Known 15
In post 3813, DkKoba wrote:NRG doesnt balance against the "worst case scenario" fwiw and goes for the average expected.
It's not a case of balance. It is a case of normalcry.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 1:36 pm
by Malakittens
In post 3868, Roden wrote:GG, scum played well. I really wish people had actually talked to me when I said "I think I'm pocketed" instead of just...ignoring me. I probably should've expected it though when HEM lashed out at me when I suspected him (and tbh had it been literally anyone else he would've been flash elim'd right there), but the early interactions with Leaf just kinda set it up for me to sit in HEM's pocket.
Kinda agree that town had too much power unleashed on Day 1, but it didn't really matter since they all died one after the other before they could do much, and it got one of the PRs voted out since their role didn't seem to fit. I want to say the game felt decided on Day 1 because of how drawn out and messy it was, but mainly I think it's just all the PRs claiming early that hurt us the most since it also prevented NKA and let a top town read like Math survive to ELo without anyone questioning why he was still alive.
I think on average the random role distribution is enough to balance the game since PRs may go to someone who misplays it. In an optimal distribution I'm sure it's definitely a town sided set up. But as it is now it looked so town sided on paper that it was enough for people to vote out a TPR mainly due to balance reasons. So I guess the main counter balance for this set up is that if the game looks town sided and a PR has some wonky looking results without catching scum, town will think they're just scum. Scum's best play is to say it's too town-sided as well and really push that idea.
I apologize to you for this. By the time yoy asked me the question I was demotivated as hell. Your t/T with me & fl/KOOPA and then hem going at me I was done.
I should have replaced out on my second outburst in hindsight
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:05 pm
by JacksonVirgo
In post 3800, MathBlade wrote:Quite honestly if Jackson continued their fake claim I think town just wins.
I knew JV was lying due to the rolecop but then HEM flips and you’d know that scum wouldn’t be triple VTs then you just claim VT / named PR and start aiming at who dies. You weren’t a VT and if town was more present I don’t think I push that bad logic.
Yeah I regret not continuing
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:07 pm
by JacksonVirgo
In post 3838, MathBlade wrote: In post 3836, Gamma Emerald wrote: In post 3828, MathBlade wrote:
Then imho your sim is flawed.
A n1 guilty is the expected result in this scenario and with that town’s more often than not win unless it’s prepared for.
only the tracker and the jk could get guilties n1
a jk guilty is inconclusive and a tracker guilty is highly unlikely
Gunsmith can get guilty N1.
If gunsmith hadn’t claimed and didn’t know what was safe and try the majority of scum safe claims jk/vig enabler
They die
The VTs can’t claim rolecop because then soon as buddy dies they do.
Gunsmith is a 100% cop
They had a false positive
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:30 pm
by JacksonVirgo
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:33 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
First of all, thank you all for playing, especially the replacements
I hope this game was fun for everyone
Secondly, I'm sorry if my modding wasn't as on top of things, especially on day 1 where I was busy during the work day (silly return to office policies making me actually do work like what). I thought about getting a backup mod for this game, but I looked at the playerlist and figured I could handle it --- *narrator voice* I was wrong.
RC said everything I wanted to say about the setup but better and with more experience to back up his words. That said, the feedback I got from my game reviewers was to make the GS either novice or odd-night for a more balanced setup (my original setup had a full, ungated setup which actually passed review). At the time, I thought odd night would actually be less punishing for scum, but I didn't think of the unfun aspect of potentially dealing with multiple guilties N1, which I think is valid criticism --- lesson learned and noted for future games.
I think it always feels demoralizing to have a guilty on your team. But I also think that the game could've easily taken a different direction; iirc, scum were seriously thinking of making humaneatingmonkey instead of Andres do the kill N1. If that had happened, we could've had this entire game play out without any guilties or any clears, which would have been very difficult for town :s
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:35 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
I'll edit this into the OP
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:25 pm
by KittyTacky
Mafia played this town like a fiddle. I never suspected Math. Also that D1 was something else.
I'm sorry for kinda ruining this game, it's just that those two townies felt outrageously scummy to me.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:28 pm
by KittyTacky
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:31 pm
by KittyTacky
GG though.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 6:11 pm
by ItalianoVD
In post 3892, KittyTacky wrote:Mafia played this town like a fiddle. I never suspected Math. Also that D1 was something else.
I'm sorry for kinda ruining this game, it's just that those two townies felt outrageously scummy to me.
Nah, you didn't ruin game man, it was concerted effort by all of us and the scum capitalized.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 8:18 pm
by MalcolmTucker
Don't know enough on the setup, but either way I think when it gets to the point where town is eliminating claimed PRs without a counterclaim it's never going to go well for town. Scum played that turn particularly well though.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 10:51 pm
by ItalianoVD
Both sides of the argument made great points imo, but being informed is a power all itself that imo town always needs more help than scum do. Giving scum any other type of power (investigative, manipulative, or protective, etc) swings it even more in their favor.
I’d actually like to know if nerfing town power would make town players better. I’d say the town gets better in today’s meta when they study different setup scenarios and understand what balance is and how to balance it. Dkkoba said they can solve the game simply off of setup spec. That’s what
they
do, but how common is that amongst town players? Imo if you want to be an elite town player you need to understand and know how the setup and balance works. You need to know the different roles and what they do and why they do what they do and what counteracts what, etc, but most town players are trying to solve the game in the normal traditional way, which is fine if you’re playing against average to mediocre scum. Trying to do that against elite competition will not work and like koba said you need to extra oomph in your arsenal.
Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 10:53 pm
by ItalianoVD
Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:22 am
by KittyTacky
Scum was super strong yeah. It would have been a blowout if not for the lucky guilty D2.