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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:32 am
by Xtoxm
Seraphim wrote:
FoS: Xtoxm


Oh, were we waiting for my claim? I have no problem claiming right this instant. I thought I was defending my case, which seemed to be the feeling I was getting. If I just had to claim, I would have done so a long time ago. Please note that this vote reeks like hell when I flip town.

I am
Kon
and have the ability to "hide" with another player rendering me untargetable for kills that night. However, if the player I am hiding behind is targeted for a kill, I also die.

I targeted Gorrad on Night 1.
Unvote


Please expand.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:40 am
by Green Crayons
Do you just not want to answer my questions, Xtox?

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:43 am
by OhGodMyLife
Vote Count:
6 to lynch

Seraphim: 4 (Albert B. Rampage, Green Crayons, ZEEnon, PhilyEc)
ZEEnon: 3 (Korlash, Gorrad, Seraphim)
Albert B. Rampage: 1 (GLaDOS)

Not Voting: 1 (Mastin, Jebus, Xtoxm)

Prodding ZEEnon.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:18 am
by Xtoxm
Your questions are retarded. But whatever.
1. You originally wanted to vote Albert, but never mentioned the reasons as to why.
This isn't even a question.
2. Within the same post of wanting to vote Albert, you hammer wasser. Why?
As I quite clearly stated in that very same post:
whatever, nothing's gonna change
You have been adamant about "scummy play style shouldn't be vote worthy."
Nice misrep. I never called my, Zwet, or Albert, or anyones playstyle scummy.
You were happy to discuss/excuse wasser's play style, your play style... but not Albert's?
Nice misrep. Had nothing to do with playstyle.
Why the exception?
No exception.
Do you find Albert's play style suspicious/scummy?
No.
Would you bracket him together with you/wasser in order to support your argument "consistently scummy play style does not a scum make?"
Nonsensical question. Also invloves a misrep.

I don't think your questions were even aimed at me, I think they were an attempt to put me in a bad light.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:56 pm
by Green Crayons
My goodness you're frustrating.

1. The question is obvious (that being, "why did you want to lynch Albert?"), and not to mention the first time I asked this question I specifically said "Why did you want to lynch Albert?" Stop pretending simple reading comprehension is a mysterious concept and actually answer the question:
why did you want to lynch Albert Day One
?

2. So your reason to switch from someone who you thought was scummy (Albert) - though the reasons behind that suspicion remain unknown - to another player (wasser) was simply because you thought you might as well as go ahead and bandwagon him to a lynch? Even though you had been professing a lack of confidence in a wasser vote earlier in the game (195 and 205)? I was asking because it seemed like such a strong break from your previous announcements that didn't think wasser looked scummy and a wasser-lynch looked like a scum excuse to lynch a townie.
Care to explain the sudden turn around, or do you just enjoy lynching townies because it's "inevitable?
"
Xtox wrote:Nice misrep. I never called my, Zwet, or Albert, or anyones play style scummy.
You're right. You
specifically
never said "so-and-so's play is scummy." I never meant to suggest that you made such a bold claim. What I was suggesting is that you were defending someone's play which was perceived to be scummy (199). You also didn't "like the manner in which [wasser was] being attacked," and he was being attacked because his play style was perceived as scummy. (205). In fact, you made this explicit defense - that a player's consistently scummy play style is no reason for a lynch because it leads to mislynches - to Gorrad (247). So, no sir. You're doing the misrepresentation, here. You were talking about play style, and how the "scumminess" of that play style should/shouldn't factor into a vote.
Xtox wrote:Nice misrep. Had nothing to do with playstyle.
This is total crap. See above for how you were clearly discussing play style. And my question originally directed towards you was how you perceived Albert's play style. Which you directly shunned as "pointless" (334).
So, my question still stands: Why were you happy to discuss wasser's play style, your play style, but not Albert's when I asked? (Hint: This has everything to do with play style.)
Since you answered the original question in your response, I really don't give a crap what reason to this question you would tell me. It's obviously because you have some sort of weird belligerent mentality with a sense of some chip on your shoulder.
Xtox wrote:Nonsensical question. Also invloves a misrep.
Hardly. You didn't give any reasons why you wanted Albert lynched D1. You still haven't. The biggest criticism I saw of him was his play style. Since you wanted Albert killed D1, I assumed you agreed with this criticism. If you did, it would have gone against your adament wasser-lynch because of scummy play hate. But since you helped narrow down your Albert hate (it wasn't because of his play style!), I see that this contradiction does not exist. Therefore, you're less likely to be scummy. A m a z i n g, but true!
Xtox wrote:I don't think your questions were even aimed at me, I think they were an attempt to put me in a bad light.
Apart from the fact that this doesn't make sense, any notion that they put you in "a bad light," in the sense that my questions seemed to start from the position of you being suspicious simply stemmed from the way your actions looked suspicious and so I was questioning the suspiciousness of those suspicious actions.
Suspicious!



tl;dr
, for Xtox specifically: just read the underlined parts. They are my questions that you have chosen to continually refuse to answer.


Would like to see Seraphim expound on his role description a bit more. Still more than comfortable with my vote on him at the moment.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:38 pm
by Seraphim
Seraphim, why did you target Gorrad on Night One? Do you die if you hide with scum?
1. I targeted him because of his late entry. I felt he had the least chance of being targeted by scum that night.

2. No, as far my role goes.
You said you die if the person you hide with is targeted for a kill. Are you saying that if the player you hide with is town and somehow eludes dying (through protection, unnightkillability, etc.), you die anyways?
No, sorry. My bad. If the kills goes through, I die.
Were you summarizing while looking at your role PM, or from memory?
From memory. Didn't have to time to dig it out of my inbox.
Specifically, you say you are "untargetable for kills. Are you "untargetable" for other actions?
Yes. Or rather, the results that someone would get back would be the person I am hiding behind. For example, if I was targeted by a cop and I was hiding behind scum, I would read scum.

So basically, what I do, summarized:

1. I target someone to hide behind.
2. If I am targeted for a kill, the kill does not go through.
3. Any other action translates to the person I am hiding behind. For example, if someone targets me to track, investigate, role-cop, etc, I would return a result of the person I am hiding behind.
4. If the person I am hiding behind dies, I die as well.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:46 pm
by Xtoxm
Could you give more detail on your PM

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:54 pm
by Seraphim
Xtoxm wrote:Could you give more detail on your PM
On the flavor, you mean?

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:11 pm
by Albert B. Rampage
I DON'T BUY THE CLAIM.

HAMMER THE SHIT OUTTA HIM.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:38 pm
by Gorrad
Now, I don't have a problem believing Kon's in the game. I don't take issue with him being a hider. What I DO take issue with is, on this:
Seraphim wrote:1. I target someone to hide behind.
2. If I am targeted for a kill, the kill does not go through.
3. Any other action translates to the person I am hiding behind. For example, if someone targets me to track, investigate, role-cop, etc, I would return a result of the person I am hiding behind.
4. If the person I am hiding behind dies, I die as well.
Why do kills not translate to the hided but other actions do? It doesn't make sense.

I call shenanigans.
Unvote, Vote: Seraphim
.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:09 pm
by GLaDOS
... Processing ...

Seraphim, your claimed role is leading me to a lot of confusion.
Seraphim wrote: 1. I target someone to hide behind.
2. If I am targeted for a kill, the kill does not go through.
3. Any other action translates to the person I am hiding behind. For example, if someone targets me to track, investigate, role-cop, etc, I would return a result of the person I am hiding behind.
4. If the person I am hiding behind dies, I die as well.
In addition to Gorrad's concern:

1.)
What happens if you are tracked? Would the tracker get results on the person you hid behind? They wouldn’t see you hide behind the person?
2.)
What happens if you are watched? Would the Watcher instead get the results on the player you hid behind? Would the Watcher get results on
both
all players who targeted you
and
all the players who targeted the person you hide behind?
3.)
What happens if you hide behind a Doctor and that same Doctor protects you? Does this essentially mean the Doctor protects himself, therefore leaving both of you completely invincible so long as there is only one kill each night?
4.)
Same as above – a Cop could investigate themselves and would not even know it? [Same goes for Tracker, Watcher, or any information role].

There are also further concerns with the role that I do not see the need to point out now, but I will have to think on them. From an experience standpoint, I do not recall seeing a Hider who did not die from hiding behind scum.

Please link me to fake-claims you have made in the past from finished games.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:22 pm
by Korlash
Uh... yeah the whole "stuff goes through to the guy I am hiding behind" doesn't really make sense. It sounds like a back up to any cops that might investigate him.

And the doctor loop hole Glad pointed out is also serious evidence against the claim, but I've seen unforseen things like that happen in games before as well. (one of which I modded... Stupid unkillable cop role...)

I'm uh, pretty much ready to hammer him now... But I'm always for hearing out more on claims, especially in theme games. So I'll wait if anyone has a problem with it, but uh... not for long...

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:16 pm
by ZEEnon
If you think I stopped posting for a brief period of time because
I feel
threatened
by the 'arguments' against me, you are sadly mistaken.
I tend to refrain from forum-type sites when i'm on holidays.
Last week was spring break for me, so I avoided anything that had to do with work.
To be honest with you, my life does not revolve around this game.
Also, I
strongly
disagree with anyone who holds the view that commenting upon the night events is scummy.
I think that the whole point of having a night phase is so that we, the town,
can gain more knowledge, or AT LEAST discuss what (could have) happened.
Also, most of the games i've played on this site have consisted of regular roles.
I have not played with any other roles that block night kills, nor have I experienced mafia NKing before on this site.
Therefore I automatically assumed that it was a doctor save, since that is a role I HAVE played with on this site.

GLaDOS wrote:ZEEnon, where exactly did you check for Albert B. Rampage’s meta?
On his profile. On everyone's profile you can find a link 'Find all posts by ******.'
You did not have to repeat the question twice, I did not respond since then, so I was going to answer regardless.
Gorrad wrote:PhilyEc, I have a really bad gut feeling about, but I can't find specific examples of why when I go through the posts. I've learned that my gut's usually a pretty good detector, but going through I can't find anything I can quote.
I don't like how Gorrad uses his gut to scumhunt.
In the past i've seen that scum use this as an excuse to push more suspicion on players
when they have nothing else to use against them.

Korlash wrote:Realize that by you excersizing yoru right to do whatever you want you gant us the honor of doing the same, which is voting you.
When you say 'us', are you referring to you and your mafia buddies, or the town in general?
Korlash, why do you feel the need to reply to posts not directed to you?
You continously answer points I make regarding Green Crayons in post 302.
Unless you feel obligated as his partner to do so, please refrain from doing this.
Again in post 309 Korlash answers a question directed to Gorrad.
Is this how you usually play Korlash, acting as every player's secretary?



OMGUS vote placed by Seriphim in post 310, with no explanation at all.
Not sure, but the last time I read the wiki you all love to follow blindly, I think that was a scum tell, no?
Just seems like he hopped off a wagon that he thought was going to go far (Albert B. Rampage),
and hopped on my growing wagon.
He was also on the zwetschenwasser wagon, increasing my already firm suspicions.
zwetschanwasser: 7 (GLaDOS, Korlash, Albert B. Rampage, Giuseppe, Gorrad, Seraphim, Xtoxm)
Two of these are DEFINITELY mafia. Possibly three.
Not sure which ones, but I will hunt until I find out.
As of now the two I suspect that most are Seraphim and Gorrad.
I'm almost dead set on Seriphim to be honest.
The only thing holding me back is that highly believeable roleclaim.
I think that his roleclaim could have something to do with why there wasn't a night kill.
Perhaps he was targetted, but he was 'hiding' therefore he was not killed.

Unvote.

So if you are watched, then the watcher will watch the person you are hiding behind instead.
Will they see you in the report? I'm not sure, I think that if I was roleclaiming,
I would try to paraphrase as much information about the role as I could, not leave out parts about how the targetting works.
I agree with Mastin's belief that GLaDOS is probable town.
Which is one reason why she hasn't been a target of any of my questions.
She seems like the type that is hard to read.
I think some further investigation on her would be most helpful, as having her on our side would be ideal.



I tend to use loaded questions a lot. I find that I get reactions that are far more readable.
Non-Loaded Question: Why did you vote Player A?
Loaded Question: Did you vote Player A to protect Player B, or did you vote Player A to get a reaction from Player C?
I think that my questions get reactions that benefit us in the long run.

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:52 pm
by Korlash
Zeenon wrote:When you say 'us', are you referring to you and your mafia buddies, or the town in general?
Korlash, why do you feel the need to reply to posts not directed to you?
You continously answer points I make regarding Green Crayons in post 302.
Unless you feel obligated as his partner to do so, please refrain from doing this.
Again in post 309 Korlash answers a question directed to Gorrad.
Is this how you usually play Korlash, acting as every player's secretary?
... I was refering to anyone who wanted to vote you based on what you did. Alignment had nothing to do with it. Nice play though with the mafia buddies, that doesn't make you look weak and desperate at all.

I feel the need to reply to anything and everything I think is important that I coment on. A good player does not ignore something just because it is directed at someone else. Why do you have a problem with me contributing every possible thing I can to this game? Do you not value maximum input? Are you against gaining as much as possible from every lead and all discussion?

I can make comments on whatever I want.

Make me... Do it... Try and stop me... you cant... so shut up.

It wasnt a question you moron it was a request for clearification. And as the clearification had to do with ME I had as much right as gorrad to answer it. Stop whining about sad pathetic things and play the game.

... I like to think I'm everyone's boss... And you're fired...
Zee wrote:Two of these are DEFINITELY mafia. Possibly three.
Not sure which ones, but I will hunt until I find out.
As of now the two I suspect that most are Seraphim and Gorrad.
I'm almost dead set on Seriphim to be honest.
The only thing holding me back is that highly believeable roleclaim.
I think that his roleclaim could have something to do with why there wasn't a night kill.
Perhaps he was targetted, but he was 'hiding' therefore he was not killed.
"I'm dead set on this guy but I'm unvoting him" right... that's playing both sides of the field there buddy... what can't pick between bussing him and defending him right now? Oh snap, look I've decended to your level... bad Korlash...

And what exactly are the odds he was the one choosen for the kill?
zee wrote:I tend to use loaded questions a lot. I find that I get reactions that are far more readable.
Non-Loaded Question: Why did you vote Player A?
Loaded Question: Did you vote Player A to protect Player B, or did you vote Player A to get a reaction from Player C?
I think that my questions get reactions that benefit us in the long run.
Loaded questions aren't very good becuase they can trip up town just as easily as they can trip up scum. A loaded question is more likely to backfire and end in a mislynch or a bad read on a town simply becuase there are more town then scum and probability wise if you ask 5 loaded questions, 3 are probably directed at town. A loaded question is arguably a misrepresentation of the facts.

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:40 am
by Green Crayons
Xtox wrote:Could you give more detail on your PM
Seraphim wrote:On the flavor, you mean?
Heh. I'm pretty sure I know to what Xtox is referring. Seraphim can get lynched now, since he doesn't have a clue (oh and all the other discrepancies others have pointed out).

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:00 am
by ZEEnon
Korlash wrote:"I'm dead set on this guy but I'm unvoting him" right... that's playing both sides of the field there buddy... what can't pick between bussing him and defending him right now?
ZEEnon wrote:The only thing holding me back is that highly believeable roleclaim.

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:08 am
by Korlash
"highly believable" my ass. There have been a lot of discrepencies brought to light. His claim might be believable to someone, but theres no way anyone can call it "highly believable," at least not until Sera were to clear things up.

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:20 am
by ZEEnon
I'm referring to the fact that the role matches the character
AND could be the reason that there was no night kill.
If his claim is true, it makes sense with what happened last night.
The character is very likely in the game, so I consider it HIGHLY possible.

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:32 pm
by Seraphim
This isn't difficult, people.
1.) What happens if you are tracked? Would the tracker get results on the person you hid behind? They wouldn’t see you hide behind the person?
2.) What happens if you are watched? Would the Watcher instead get the results on the player you hid behind? Would the Watcher get results on both all players who targeted you and all the players who targeted the person you hide behind?
3.) What happens if you hide behind a Doctor and that same Doctor protects you? Does this essentially mean the Doctor protects himself, therefore leaving both of you completely invincible so long as there is only one kill each night?
4.) Same as above – a Cop could investigate themselves and would not even know it? [Same goes for Tracker, Watcher, or any information role].
1. If they tracked me, they would get the results of the person I'm hiding behind. Something to do with spirit threads.
2. If they watched me, they would get results of the person I was hiding behind, yes.
3. I would assume that if the doctor protected me and I was hiding behind him, he would target me normally. Also, I looked back again, one would also conclude that roleblocks would stop me hiding altogether.
4. Yes, this is true.

Xtoxm, GC, what exactly are you talking about? Do you want the flavor for my role PM as well? Straight-forward questions and I will give you straight-forward answers.

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:12 pm
by PhilyEc
I've been catching up from when I last posted around the 4th. I think Seraphims roleclaim is true.

1) Kon is a very desirable character to have in this theme and I can see him being chosen by Mod.
2) The role seems quite reasonable.
3) No one else is giving out shit for Seraphim claiming their own role (due to 1 I think it does exist in this game).

Unvote

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:06 pm
by Green Crayons
Seraphim wrote:2. If I am targeted for a kill, the kill does not go through.
3. Any other action translates to the person I am hiding behind. For example, if someone targets me to track, investigate, role-cop, etc, I would return a result of the person I am hiding behind.
I don't like this, it contradicts what a "hider" does. They hide. I don't think I've ever seen/heard of a hider who only escapes from kills, but other night targets are transferred to the player he's leeching off of. I would like further clarification of the "Something to do with spirit threads" hand wave to this contradiction in 418.
Seraphim wrote:Xtoxm, GC, what exactly are you talking about? Do you want the flavor for my role PM as well? Straight-forward questions and I will give you straight-forward answers.
I'll settle for flavor, specifically any flavor concerning your night ability. I reread my own PM and have decided any specific questions I might ask probably skate on thin ice in terms of quotation.

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:01 pm
by ZEEnon
To Seriphim:
ZEEnon wrote:So if you are watched, then the watcher will watch the person you are hiding behind instead.
Will they see you in the report?

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:50 pm
by Korlash
I have to agree with GC. It doesn't make sense that any actions are transfered at all. All targets should auto fail on a hider.

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:53 pm
by Korlash
EBWOP: Kon could also be a safeclaim given to the scum. In order to be a true theme game the mod should give the scum a few believable roles to fakeclaim. Kon definitly fits the description of a believeable role while also being minor enough to not be a main part of the set-up. You can't just automatically believe it becuase you think Kon is in the game, that doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Also this whole linking last night's no kill to his claim is stupid. What the hell are you going to say when the doc claims? Oh he had nothing to do with it, lynch the liar? Same with a Roleblocker? Same with a Jailkeep?

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:35 am
by GLaDOS
Seraphim wrote: 3. I would assume that if the doctor protected me and I was hiding behind him, he would target me normally. Also, I looked back again, one would also conclude that roleblocks would stop me hiding altogether.
Come again? Does your role expressly state that all actions are attributed to the person you hide behind except for Doctors? Why do you assume a Doctor to be an exception?

I’m starting to disbelieve Seraphim’s role-claim even more than I was previously. The whole “transferred investigations” seems to be a way for him to argue with investigation results: “well, you didn’t investigate
me
, you investigated the person I hid behind.”

~
ZEEnon wrote:On his profile. On everyone's profile you can find a link 'Find all posts by ******.'
So just to be clear: you do not know the difference between ABR as town and ABR as scum? You just know how ABR “usually posts,” without knowing the context of those posts in an actual game?
ZEEnon wrote: I don't like how Gorrad uses his gut to scumhunt.
In the past i've seen that scum use this as an excuse to push more suspicion on players
when they have nothing else to use against them.
Would you mind citing an example (or a few examples) of this?